Cat Dancer
MVP
It seems like abuse and neglect are much more common than someone having a good childhood. I don't really know anyone that had a really decent childhood. Is it just something to suck up and get over and not even think twice about?
- Thread starter Cat Dancer
- Start date
I don't know about sucking it up and get over it but I had to quit wishing for and wanting the one I did not have. I just had to accept mine and figure out what I gained from it. I know that sounds weird but my childhood made me fiercely independent, resilient in that I know I can survive just about anything, and that I can rely on myself to sort out problems one step at a time. My childhood also left me with a distrust of adults and a propensity to be a "fixer" of all problems. Those are the problems I still work on.
Most people I have encountered may not have had a 'perfect' childhood, but most of them had pretty decent ones. But decent,to me,means they weren't physically or sexually abused.
I don't think an abusive childhood is something most people can just suck up and get over or not think twice about. I wish it was that easy. Sometimes I say I'm going to do that,but I just can't seem to be able to forget about it and move on.
I don't know your story CD, but I really don't think you can expect to just suck it up if you were abused.
I was reading a post by Bloodwood the other day, along the lines that those of us that have suffered do have a tendency to 'resonate', perhaps, with others who also have. Sometimes we find ourselves having more contact with others with at least some suffering /illness /problems in their background. I am not going to say this is always true or pretend to know how it works, but I believe it's a factor sometimes.
In my case I know many people who have had quite good childhoods - not perfect by any means, but (as far as i know) free of things that would be considered neglect or abuse by most people.
However, what i know for sure is that absolutely EVERY parent is thoroughly riddled with imperfection. (No offense to all the parents out there!) All humans are. Plenty of weak spots; the impact of the pressures and juggling act of life; as well as the sheer impossibility of completely being informed, up to date, and highly skilled in the absolute 'best' way to do everything. (Which has an annoying habit of regularly changing. Even when it doesn't, LIFE and CULTURE and SOCIETY keep changing, so that in itself changes things.)
I think these days being a 'good' parent means just doing what we CAN - not what we can't - in each moment to juggle life, look after ourselves and our children, and keep on keeping on, with whatever challenge we can currently try to deal with. Just stick around, be there, and try to manage the challenges as best we can with our own imperfections.
That is all anyone can ask of a parent, because absolutely every parent has imperfections, weak spots, and limitations.
In my case I know many people who have had quite good childhoods - not perfect by any means, but (as far as i know) free of things that would be considered neglect or abuse by most people.
However, what i know for sure is that absolutely EVERY parent is thoroughly riddled with imperfection. (No offense to all the parents out there!) All humans are. Plenty of weak spots; the impact of the pressures and juggling act of life; as well as the sheer impossibility of completely being informed, up to date, and highly skilled in the absolute 'best' way to do everything. (Which has an annoying habit of regularly changing. Even when it doesn't, LIFE and CULTURE and SOCIETY keep changing, so that in itself changes things.)
I think these days being a 'good' parent means just doing what we CAN - not what we can't - in each moment to juggle life, look after ourselves and our children, and keep on keeping on, with whatever challenge we can currently try to deal with. Just stick around, be there, and try to manage the challenges as best we can with our own imperfections.
That is all anyone can ask of a parent, because absolutely every parent has imperfections, weak spots, and limitations.
Re: Is there such a thing as a "good" childhood?
May I ask how you accepted it? What does acceptance mean anyway? Just accepting the facts?
---------- Post Merged at 06:27 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:25 PM ----------
Did you just say "X" and "X" happened,it can't be changed,so I need to find a way to deal with it?
May I ask how you accepted it? What does acceptance mean anyway? Just accepting the facts?
---------- Post Merged at 06:27 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:25 PM ----------
Did you just say "X" and "X" happened,it can't be changed,so I need to find a way to deal with it?
Re: Is there such a thing as a "good" childhood?
Yes - it's that simple and that hard. I couldn't change it even though I desperately wanted to. Who doesn't want a white picket fence childhood with Sunday dinners, family vacations and grandma living down the road? I did and tried to recreate it for half my adult life. My father was physically and mentally abusive plus a misogynist. He despised women -his mother, my mother and I were his favorite targets. I could go on forever about his behaviours but that just keeps me under his control. One day a light bulb went on and I woke up to living in the present. That's when I realized there were things I learned in my childhood that served me well. A few years ago I read a book by Byron Katie and that helped me to move my life forward even more.
Acceptance to me was accepting the facts not excusing the behaviours.
---------- Post Merged at 05:39 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 05:10 PM ----------
The other thing I learned about me was that I am brave. I survived that man and his incredible meanness. My sister-in-law always says "The best revenge is a life well lived." and that is what I now plan to do - live my best life possible.
Yes - it's that simple and that hard. I couldn't change it even though I desperately wanted to. Who doesn't want a white picket fence childhood with Sunday dinners, family vacations and grandma living down the road? I did and tried to recreate it for half my adult life. My father was physically and mentally abusive plus a misogynist. He despised women -his mother, my mother and I were his favorite targets. I could go on forever about his behaviours but that just keeps me under his control. One day a light bulb went on and I woke up to living in the present. That's when I realized there were things I learned in my childhood that served me well. A few years ago I read a book by Byron Katie and that helped me to move my life forward even more.
Acceptance to me was accepting the facts not excusing the behaviours.
---------- Post Merged at 05:39 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 05:10 PM ----------
The other thing I learned about me was that I am brave. I survived that man and his incredible meanness. My sister-in-law always says "The best revenge is a life well lived." and that is what I now plan to do - live my best life possible.
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Re: Is there such a thing as a "good" childhood?
I don't know if there is a perfect childhood because after all we are usually raised by parents with their own baggage. I was raised by 2 alcoholics, father with anti social personality disorder who was violent, and mother with various issues but mostly absent emotionally. I spent many years trying to work out how to get over it and i don't think there is ever a bright shining light that makes it all click into place.
for me it was a number of key things that just happened over time:
-realising my father had a disorder...helped me learn to not take his actions towards me so personally. also helped me to watch for triggers....lying, manipulatation etc and to not get caught up and disengage as soon as i can
-realising my father did not have a good childhood either and in his era there were no forums, self help books etc to deal with his past
-realising that me laying awake at 3am every night hating him only did me harm because he was no doubt snoring his head off and getting the sleep i deserved
-realising i could turn the perceived negatives of my parents behaviour into positives for myself. my father was very loud and my mother was very quiet. in some twisted way i believe it has almost given me the ability to know i can speak up for myself in situations and also knowing that there are times i need to be quiet. through their extremes, i have tried to find my own balance
- i don't know if this is healthy but overall i have mentally released them from being my parents. therefore i don't have those expectations of them for them to fail as a parent. lets face it if they were perfect parents and died in a tragic accident, wouldn't i still have to find a way on my own somehow? so i have mentally released them from parenthood and instead drawn on all the good examples i can find in books, other people etc. somehow i guess the entire universe has helped raise me
-and overall i am determined to not do what they did because i realise it hurts other people AND it has actually made their lives miserable. so i thank them for making all the mistakes i now don't have to make because i know exactly where it will lead me if i follow suit.
i guess it's just accepting, reframing, detaching and knowing their inabilities don't have to determine your fate
easier said then done but worth it
---------- Post Merged at 02:38 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:27 PM ----------
I think accepting it means you realise it happened, that it WAS crap and that you cannot change it for all the wishing and wanting in the world. that you may not get an apology for it and that you acknowledge it has impacted you
acceptance can sometimes imply that you are agreeing with something and sometimes it feels that accepting and forgiving means you are giving your parents a free pass on their behaviour
i think for me because i had no idea how to mentally deal with it i just kept reverting back to thoughts of i wish it didn't happen
by going through that cycle it kept me in a loop of just rehashing the pain rather than finding a way to move beyond it
I don't know if there is a perfect childhood because after all we are usually raised by parents with their own baggage. I was raised by 2 alcoholics, father with anti social personality disorder who was violent, and mother with various issues but mostly absent emotionally. I spent many years trying to work out how to get over it and i don't think there is ever a bright shining light that makes it all click into place.
for me it was a number of key things that just happened over time:
-realising my father had a disorder...helped me learn to not take his actions towards me so personally. also helped me to watch for triggers....lying, manipulatation etc and to not get caught up and disengage as soon as i can
-realising my father did not have a good childhood either and in his era there were no forums, self help books etc to deal with his past
-realising that me laying awake at 3am every night hating him only did me harm because he was no doubt snoring his head off and getting the sleep i deserved
-realising i could turn the perceived negatives of my parents behaviour into positives for myself. my father was very loud and my mother was very quiet. in some twisted way i believe it has almost given me the ability to know i can speak up for myself in situations and also knowing that there are times i need to be quiet. through their extremes, i have tried to find my own balance
- i don't know if this is healthy but overall i have mentally released them from being my parents. therefore i don't have those expectations of them for them to fail as a parent. lets face it if they were perfect parents and died in a tragic accident, wouldn't i still have to find a way on my own somehow? so i have mentally released them from parenthood and instead drawn on all the good examples i can find in books, other people etc. somehow i guess the entire universe has helped raise me
-and overall i am determined to not do what they did because i realise it hurts other people AND it has actually made their lives miserable. so i thank them for making all the mistakes i now don't have to make because i know exactly where it will lead me if i follow suit.
i guess it's just accepting, reframing, detaching and knowing their inabilities don't have to determine your fate
easier said then done but worth it
---------- Post Merged at 02:38 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:27 PM ----------
I think accepting it means you realise it happened, that it WAS crap and that you cannot change it for all the wishing and wanting in the world. that you may not get an apology for it and that you acknowledge it has impacted you
acceptance can sometimes imply that you are agreeing with something and sometimes it feels that accepting and forgiving means you are giving your parents a free pass on their behaviour
i think for me because i had no idea how to mentally deal with it i just kept reverting back to thoughts of i wish it didn't happen
by going through that cycle it kept me in a loop of just rehashing the pain rather than finding a way to move beyond it
Depends on what you mean by "good."
I remember going to friend's homes and realizing that the people who lived there genuinely liked and supported each other. Didn't mean they didn't yell, fuss, make mistakes and even hurt each other from time to time. It meant that if one of them had a problem the rest were genuinely concerned and tried to help. Then I went back to my home into an atmosphere that was rife with tension - where it was obvious the family members didn't really care about each other as people and would undermine the other if they thought it would give them an advantage.
The difference is not perfection, but rather is feeling a sense of trust and safety - of predictability.
I remember going to friend's homes and realizing that the people who lived there genuinely liked and supported each other. Didn't mean they didn't yell, fuss, make mistakes and even hurt each other from time to time. It meant that if one of them had a problem the rest were genuinely concerned and tried to help. Then I went back to my home into an atmosphere that was rife with tension - where it was obvious the family members didn't really care about each other as people and would undermine the other if they thought it would give them an advantage.
The difference is not perfection, but rather is feeling a sense of trust and safety - of predictability.
texasgirl
MVP
I just finally realized that my parents came from a long line of bizarre and torturous abuse themselves and that it was up to me to stop the cycle . Long years of therapy helped me come to terms too. The genetic piece of my illness can't be helped without medication so I try to stay on regimen. Forgiveness came hard but freed me from a lifetime of bitterness.....
How did you find this out? Did your parents just come out and tell you or did you just surmise it from family stories? I guess its logical that if your parents abused you that they themselves must have been abused, but were you able to find out details?
I think once you start to climb out the hole dug for you and in particular if you have the courage to get help you begin to see the pattern of abuse in families even if you are unaware of the exact nature...
I know my own parents set about trying to mentally destroy me and my life but much like you know no different, because no one has shown you, and they are who you should be being looked after by so therefore their behavior must be okay... once that bubble bursts and the inner voice telling you it's wrong comes forward, I think you start to work out and see it going back further than just your direct experience with your parents.
I ended up feeling empathy for both my utterly horrible parents because of what my grandparents had done to them and when in therapy in particular this caused a lot of issues for me because I REALLY did not want to be feeling such a way towards them.
Yet now from the heady heights of coming through three years of therapy I can sit on my tree branch and survey all that is my family and feel sadness for them all and happiness that I am like none of them.
As for the perfect childhood all children I think can pick fault with their parents (particularly in teenage-hood) but I think as a child I instinctively knew when my mates came from okay houses there was a lack of atmosphere that you get in a house where there is violence or abuse and strangely enough to this day I can pick up on that atmosphere with amazing accuracy. I always felt safe and cared for in these houses and that is the sign of a good childhood as far as I am concerned.
One final note an attribute I have been left with because of what I have been though... I have been left with the check list much like rdw's but I also am a child magnet because I seem to exude a sense of safety and care, it is as if children just instinctively know I won't hurt them and they are drawn to me to the point I have had to create boundaries and sadly have discovered children who are being abused.
This for me is one of the nicest things to come out of what I have been through that I have this ability.
I know my own parents set about trying to mentally destroy me and my life but much like you know no different, because no one has shown you, and they are who you should be being looked after by so therefore their behavior must be okay... once that bubble bursts and the inner voice telling you it's wrong comes forward, I think you start to work out and see it going back further than just your direct experience with your parents.
I ended up feeling empathy for both my utterly horrible parents because of what my grandparents had done to them and when in therapy in particular this caused a lot of issues for me because I REALLY did not want to be feeling such a way towards them.
Yet now from the heady heights of coming through three years of therapy I can sit on my tree branch and survey all that is my family and feel sadness for them all and happiness that I am like none of them.
As for the perfect childhood all children I think can pick fault with their parents (particularly in teenage-hood) but I think as a child I instinctively knew when my mates came from okay houses there was a lack of atmosphere that you get in a house where there is violence or abuse and strangely enough to this day I can pick up on that atmosphere with amazing accuracy. I always felt safe and cared for in these houses and that is the sign of a good childhood as far as I am concerned.
One final note an attribute I have been left with because of what I have been though... I have been left with the check list much like rdw's but I also am a child magnet because I seem to exude a sense of safety and care, it is as if children just instinctively know I won't hurt them and they are drawn to me to the point I have had to create boundaries and sadly have discovered children who are being abused.
This for me is one of the nicest things to come out of what I have been through that I have this ability.
texasgirl
MVP
Partly came from them directly and partly from other family members.
yes it is possible to have a good childhood. While I had an abominable childhood I worked hard to ensure that my daughter would have a good childhood. I am fortunate to have been able to do this. I smile when i walk by her room at night and she is sleeping at peace in a clean room.I bought a book called the six pillars of self esteem and the biggest thing I got out of it was to encourage her to do things for herself. If her grades at school where good and she would announce this to me I would make sure she was doing this for herself. I also constantly told her she was great and that she was special.
Like several threads state I realize now that both of my parents where extremely sick without the resources of today. The man who I cannot call father was a sociopath still is and every time I would try to forgive him for all the hurt he did, I could not justify forgiveness as I would continue to rehash the events. So i decided to forget him. This is working. I just stop thinking of him. That works for me. I am emotionally unavailable and fear my daughter might be that way. My behavior with my wife does not include a lot of cuddling kissing etc. No arguments and lots of talking and fun etc. Our parents did not have the conscience or the tools to comprehend the harm they where doing. It takes a long time to forgive and it is ongoing. I am doing the inner child workshop and it is really hitting home. I think I gave up on the child in me at around 15-16 when puberty and adolescence and plans to move away where in my mind. As I became a man I just left the inner child(adult) with all the anger fear distrust disappointment and tried to forge a life ahead. As I got older I felt like 2 people and my behavior did not make sense. Also being close was an issue. Its when my mom passed w=away that the hold was gone and the child reemerged with a vengeance. Things are getting better. They say if you do not do any work things will get worse. I am a believer. I am thankful for this website as I can relate to a lot and will publish my experiences in hopes that it can help someone and am certainly open to comments. Have a nice day
Like several threads state I realize now that both of my parents where extremely sick without the resources of today. The man who I cannot call father was a sociopath still is and every time I would try to forgive him for all the hurt he did, I could not justify forgiveness as I would continue to rehash the events. So i decided to forget him. This is working. I just stop thinking of him. That works for me. I am emotionally unavailable and fear my daughter might be that way. My behavior with my wife does not include a lot of cuddling kissing etc. No arguments and lots of talking and fun etc. Our parents did not have the conscience or the tools to comprehend the harm they where doing. It takes a long time to forgive and it is ongoing. I am doing the inner child workshop and it is really hitting home. I think I gave up on the child in me at around 15-16 when puberty and adolescence and plans to move away where in my mind. As I became a man I just left the inner child(adult) with all the anger fear distrust disappointment and tried to forge a life ahead. As I got older I felt like 2 people and my behavior did not make sense. Also being close was an issue. Its when my mom passed w=away that the hold was gone and the child reemerged with a vengeance. Things are getting better. They say if you do not do any work things will get worse. I am a believer. I am thankful for this website as I can relate to a lot and will publish my experiences in hopes that it can help someone and am certainly open to comments. Have a nice day
Pretty sure some people actually DO grow up in relatively safe homes, and have that seemingly charmed life that some of us dream of. No family is perfect, but even those parents who slip up, I imagine, at least tried their best. It is especially helpful if a parent was raised in an equally healthy environment and was not self-absorbed to the point where children's needs were neglected.
I try, as usual, to look on the bright side of things. Because/despite of what happened to me in the past, I am still loved now, and although it took a long time, I actually feel lovable once in a while, like maybe I even deserve it. I am loved by people who don't try to manipulate me, don't take advantage of my good nature or my generosity. People who maybe have had some troubles in their own childhoods and can relate somewhat to me. I have relatives who grew up outside my isolated family dysfunction, who occasionally rescued me just by showing me what a real family was like. I had school friends and teachers who also showed me I was loveable.
Therapy and meeting with people of like minds and experiences... And lots and lots of ready and research on my own part... Journaling, painting, etc... These things were my way of purging, recovery and healing. It's a very personal journey. I examined my deepest self, way down... and even examined what perhaps those parents of mine were like. History... What happened to them that made them the way they were? Seems like this abuse first started at least as far back as my great-grandparents. It was just continued because each child of each parent thought abuse was normal, or that if you loved someone enough they'd somehow want to change. I was taught if you stay with the abuser and let the world circle around the abuser, that this is good. To try to stand up to or react to the abuser was discouraged. Sides were taken. Keep the peace at any cost. Any cost. In other words, be passive. Be an object. Be used. Being used was as close to being loved as you could get. Be a puppet. Lose yourself. Disappear. I tried to disappear into a lot of people before I figured out it was okay to just be myself. But it's hard to be yourself when you were trying to be someone else for so long. It's hard to fill yourself out with, well, your self, when you let another person control you for so long.
I am so glad I came across that chasm of nothingness.... On the other side I am more whole. I expect to be treated as you would like to be treated. And if you don't, I won't worry if you won't like it or not, I will just lose interest in you... Instead of how I used to be attracted to people who behaved strangely/wrongly. It now seems odd to me, my old choices. But it also makes sense to me why I used to make those choices.
I try to remind myself not to ask "why me" (why did that happen to me in the past) but instead I choose to think of what and who I have become (now). I'm thankful for who I am now. And somehow I got here, and I am thankful for that as well.
For "normal" families, who don't understand or comprehend or try to minimize what happens/happened to us who were abused, try not to be offended... They have no concept of what you've been through and are basing their responses on what has happened to them. We were on the frontlines, and they were back in their homes, safe in their beds, living the good life. Just find people like yourself, and whatever you've learned, however you've learned to love yourself, pass it on to them. They're gonna need it. ♥
I try, as usual, to look on the bright side of things. Because/despite of what happened to me in the past, I am still loved now, and although it took a long time, I actually feel lovable once in a while, like maybe I even deserve it. I am loved by people who don't try to manipulate me, don't take advantage of my good nature or my generosity. People who maybe have had some troubles in their own childhoods and can relate somewhat to me. I have relatives who grew up outside my isolated family dysfunction, who occasionally rescued me just by showing me what a real family was like. I had school friends and teachers who also showed me I was loveable.
Therapy and meeting with people of like minds and experiences... And lots and lots of ready and research on my own part... Journaling, painting, etc... These things were my way of purging, recovery and healing. It's a very personal journey. I examined my deepest self, way down... and even examined what perhaps those parents of mine were like. History... What happened to them that made them the way they were? Seems like this abuse first started at least as far back as my great-grandparents. It was just continued because each child of each parent thought abuse was normal, or that if you loved someone enough they'd somehow want to change. I was taught if you stay with the abuser and let the world circle around the abuser, that this is good. To try to stand up to or react to the abuser was discouraged. Sides were taken. Keep the peace at any cost. Any cost. In other words, be passive. Be an object. Be used. Being used was as close to being loved as you could get. Be a puppet. Lose yourself. Disappear. I tried to disappear into a lot of people before I figured out it was okay to just be myself. But it's hard to be yourself when you were trying to be someone else for so long. It's hard to fill yourself out with, well, your self, when you let another person control you for so long.
I am so glad I came across that chasm of nothingness.... On the other side I am more whole. I expect to be treated as you would like to be treated. And if you don't, I won't worry if you won't like it or not, I will just lose interest in you... Instead of how I used to be attracted to people who behaved strangely/wrongly. It now seems odd to me, my old choices. But it also makes sense to me why I used to make those choices.
I try to remind myself not to ask "why me" (why did that happen to me in the past) but instead I choose to think of what and who I have become (now). I'm thankful for who I am now. And somehow I got here, and I am thankful for that as well.
For "normal" families, who don't understand or comprehend or try to minimize what happens/happened to us who were abused, try not to be offended... They have no concept of what you've been through and are basing their responses on what has happened to them. We were on the frontlines, and they were back in their homes, safe in their beds, living the good life. Just find people like yourself, and whatever you've learned, however you've learned to love yourself, pass it on to them. They're gonna need it. ♥
I just wanted to mention that sometimes I see the title of a thread, but I don't properly notice the section or "category" or broader subject that the thread has been put in.
Noticing the category now (of course and reading the other replies too), I just wanted to mention that I would probably have answered the question somewhat differently to how I did above. In part of my post, I was thinking a little in terms of genuinely responsible, caring parents having anxious/obsessive thoughts that they are bad parents, no matter how hard they try and no matter how much they love their children....
Seeing the category though, I'd have had a different focus or thinking process to what's in my above post. Just wanted to mention that as I think my post reads a bit confusingly, for the main subject/category. Thanks
Noticing the category now (of course and reading the other replies too), I just wanted to mention that I would probably have answered the question somewhat differently to how I did above. In part of my post, I was thinking a little in terms of genuinely responsible, caring parents having anxious/obsessive thoughts that they are bad parents, no matter how hard they try and no matter how much they love their children....
Seeing the category though, I'd have had a different focus or thinking process to what's in my above post. Just wanted to mention that as I think my post reads a bit confusingly, for the main subject/category. Thanks
Quite alright, MHealthJo!
Sometimes normal parents DO have anxieties... I own two special needs dogs... I don't know how parents do it when they actually have children of the two-legged variety!
Also some extreme anxiety can occur for us grown-up children... Are we good enough parents after what we've been through?
But I appreciate MHJ that we got a perspective of what a normal childhood looks like! Because a "normal" family is challenging enough to raise/be raised in! ♥
Sometimes normal parents DO have anxieties... I own two special needs dogs... I don't know how parents do it when they actually have children of the two-legged variety!
Also some extreme anxiety can occur for us grown-up children... Are we good enough parents after what we've been through?
But I appreciate MHJ that we got a perspective of what a normal childhood looks like! Because a "normal" family is challenging enough to raise/be raised in! ♥
Yup. Yeah, just thought I would clarify - suddenly decided my post possibly read a bit weirdly/confusingly, heh.
Lonewolf
Member
I think it depends on what you compare it to!!!
A few weeks ago a girl contacted me through Facebook that lived down the street from me when we were little kids. I had not seen or heard from her in over 40 years. We were catching up and she told me some startling things. My house was at the top of a hill and my bedroom windows faced her bedroom - probably 200 ft. separated the two houses. In those days we all slept with our windows open. (no air conditioning) She said she remembered several times hearing me scream and she thought my father was beating me. She told me she remembered being scared of my father. While I remember being beaten I don't remember when it happened.
She was a year or two younger than me, but she had a brother that was close to my age. We were friends and played together from about age 8 to age 12 or 13. She told me her brother was molested by their mother until he was a teenager and a few years ago he committed suicide. Both of her parents committed suicide not long after that - first the mother and then the father.
I think there must have been something in the water in my neighborhood.
She was a year or two younger than me, but she had a brother that was close to my age. We were friends and played together from about age 8 to age 12 or 13. She told me her brother was molested by their mother until he was a teenager and a few years ago he committed suicide. Both of her parents committed suicide not long after that - first the mother and then the father.
I think there must have been something in the water in my neighborhood.
Gosh..... what a sad story..... :'(
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