Parental Narcissistic Personality Disorder

[Dragonfly]

Some children of narcissists do turn out to be narcissists themselves. At present the jury is out on just how much of the narcissitic personality type is inherited , at least expressed under the right conditons, and how much is learned behavior. The remainder of the "normal" children of these parents end up with a host of life problems that therapy is useful in dealing with.

I think Karyl McBride, in her book: "Will I ever be good enough?" talked about the various survival strategies that are available to children being reared by at least one narcissistic parent. (Please excuse me if I am mis-attributing this work - I don't have the book in front of me ....) I believe she suggested that children can survive by rebellion (making me link Otto Kernberg's work on the similiarities between narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders); survive by compliance or survive by identification and replication. I think that it would be the last group - those who survive by identification and replication, that would most closely look like they "inherited" narcissism from their parent(s).

But it does raise interesting questions - how much of personality is inherited? (Nature vs. nurture). If someone has come to a narcisstic personality disorder because they imitated that with which they were raised, are they more or less amenable to change as an adult? Inherently, what are the differences between the kids who [chose] different survival strategies? And, what about the parenting styles of people who survived being raised by narcisstic parent(s) - how are they alike and how are they different?

 

[Beth McHugh]

Hi Dragonfly, certainly some aspects of personality is inherited. With NPD, the three choices you quoted are pretty much the survival pattern for the children of the narcissist. I and another psychologist have traced NPD in two separate families where we have had considerable access to family behaviour patterns. Some children grew up to be people pleasers, some tried to fly under the radar and some became narcissists themselves. Interestingly, the ones who ended up narcissists were the favoured children of the affected parent. That then begs the question, nature or nurture, genes or learned behaviour. Always an interesting topic to me. Great to hear your thoughts.

Beth

I think Karyl McBride, in her book: "Will I ever be good enough?" talked about the various survival strategies that are available to children being reared by at least one narcissistic parent. (Please excuse me if I am mis-attributing this work - I don't have the book in front of me ....) I believe she suggested that children can survive by rebellion (making me link Otto Kernberg's work on the similiarities between narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders); survive by compliance or survive by identification and replication. I think that it would be the last group - those who survive by identification and replication, that would most closely look like they "inherited" narcissism from their parent(s).

But it does raise interesting questions - how much of personality is inherited? (Nature vs. nurture). If someone has come to a narcisstic personality disorder because they imitated that with which they were raised, are they more or less amenable to change as an adult? Inherently, what are the differences between the kids who [chose] different survival strategies? And, what about the parenting styles of people who survived being raised by narcisstic parent(s) - how are they alike and how are they different?

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Thread split to http://forum.psychlinks.ca/narcissistic-personality-disorder/25745-problems-with-mother.html

 

[phoebe22]

I just wonder sometimes if trying to survive causes most people to develop a little bit of narcissism?

Someone told me once jokingly that "it's always the mother's fault." I hear this A LOT. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't true.

I don't know about that, though during their school years and teens it's practically a given we're going to get the flack.

:hissyfit:


My NP(and histrionic)D mother was a soul-devouring horror
:dramaqueen:
:bash:
so when I had children, all I knew was that I was going to be as opposite of her as I could in every way. My kids have grown up for the most part, intact ... exception being incident from outside family ... but I wouldn't call myself a "good" mother. It was a combination of instinct and luck that got us through, plain and simple.

just my :2cents:

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Thread split to http://forum.psychlinks.ca/narcissi...er/26111-surviving-a-narcissistic-mother.html

Thread split to http://forum.psychlinks.ca/narcissi...issistic-mother-with-psychopathic-traits.html

 

[Frazzled]

Unfortunately, my mother and I went to therapy and she was a stellar actress. The caring, long-suffering mother. The problem that I was having was reinforced because my mother was such a good actress. The therapist had no idea the extent my mother would go to justify her hurtful actions and comments. They got so much worse after this period and now I have a hard time even giving her the opportunity to be around me without someone else there. Even my father isn't enough cushion from her to feel secure in the relationship. This is the struggle of how to have a functional relationship with either of them, especially when I am very certain that my father knows exactly what has been happening and unwilling to call her out on it. She has a hold over him that is unmovable. I had no idea what was going on with her until I found this site. Thanks for putting a name to it. Now if I can get to a decision on how to handle things with her.

Thanks
Frazzled

 

[phoebe22]

Unfortunately, my mother and I went to therapy and she was a stellar actress. The caring, long-suffering mother. The problem that I was having was reinforced because my mother was such a good actress.

I think that's one of the many crazy-making things about them; they're so convincing it's as if nobody even hears us, let alone believes or understands us ... not unless they witness it for themselves, which doesn't happen very often because our actress mommies are too good at assessing their audience.

 

[Beth McHugh]

Hi Phoebe, you did well even getting your mother to go to therapy, although of course sadly it did no good. Narcisssits don't usually go to therapy because there is nothing wrong with them. They are also very skilled at presenting convincing facades, hence your therapist was convinced that not only was your mother harmless, but that you might have benn "overreacting" or have a problem in some area that I could only guess at, given the talents of a narcisist. If you need help in dealing with your mother you can contact me at youronlinecounselor.com as well read the articles there on NPD.
Hope this helps,
Best wishes,
Beth

--
Beth McHugh
B.Sc.(Hons) B.Psych. Dip . Sc.

 

[phoebe22]

Hi Phoebe, you did well even getting your mother to go to therapy, although of course sadly it did no good. Narcisssits don't usually go to therapy because there is nothing wrong with them. They are also very skilled at presenting convincing facades, hence your therapist was convinced that not only was your mother harmless, but that you might have benn "overreacting" or have a problem in some area that I could only guess at, given the talents of a narcisist. If you need help in dealing with your mother you can contact me at youronlinecounselor.com as well read the articles there on NPD.
Hope this helps,
Best wishes,
Beth

--
Beth McHugh
B.Sc.(Hons) B.Psych. Dip . Sc.

I never did go into therapy with her, though she was constantly sending me to various psychs to "fix" me because according to her, I was the problem. (She also tried to make it look as if it was my father who'd messed up my head so that she could limit our contact even further than she did.) By the time I was 12 I'd given up trying to talk to the various therapists, counselors, etc, because I realized it was pointless.

She did see a shrink fairly often herself, coming home with such announcements as "Dr ____ told me I need to start putting myself first" or some variation on the theme of what a trial and tribulation I was. I sometimes wonder what was really in her file. Given that she was an incredibly gifted stage actress whose favourite role was Ophelia, I can only imagine ...

My mother died nearly 30 years ago. I strongly suspect that if she were still around, I wouldn't be. Sometimes it's still touch and go; she may be gone but the memories and flashbacks linger on.

Thanks, and sorry about the confusion

Phb

 

[J PTSD]

This describes my mom.
I'll probably add more tomorrow but my klonopin hit me hard right now.
kind of funny.

 

[Beth McHugh]

Hi Phoebe, your mother certainly had a belief she had to hold onto very strongly about her own self if she felt the need to have you at so many counselors before the age of 12. Unless you had a developmental disorder (which would have been diagnosed) where was your mother's concern for her child, rather than blaming you as being the problem. Like you , I would wonder what was in her file. She probably liked that attention or had a co-morbidity like histrinonic personality disorder. I can't say with so little information but I hope you have been able to reach a comfortable resolution in the years since she has been dead. If you need help withthe flashbacks, contact me. I hope you can step out of your mother's shadow -- with her treatment of an innocent child her time in the limelight should be long over. Best wishes, Beth

 

[Frazzled]

It is intensely frustrating to deal with it because I have seen the look on others peoples faces that know us both. They seem to be saying that "she just has resentment", "she's just sensitive". My mother is really good at hiding her ways and only expressing them around one person so she doesn't have to be accountable for it. I have mini anxiety attacks and intense fear when I see her. I am always cautious when I'm around her because in my head I'm wondering what is she going to do to me now, what am I going to get blamed for now? Definitely crazy-making, without a doubt!

 

[wanda20]

Hello Hermes. I read your post and the quote from it...."One of the hardest positions you may find yourself in is when having to decide whether to cut off all contact with your parent or parents. It seems unnatural to live your life as if your parents are already dead." (apolgies cos I don't know how to do the reply quote thing - I tried and stuffed it up - sorry).

And that is what I feel, like we are wasting time. They are old, and I don't want them to die without us having some quality time together. I don't want to feel like my parents are already dead.

Could I also ask Hermes, you had a link to an article called "Cut off the Narcisistic Parent? Or not?". I clicked on the web link and it said page not found. Do you still have a copy of it by any chance? Thanks for listening to me again. Take care all.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Yes, that link is dead and I could not find an alternate source for it.

However, you might be interested in Narcissists Suck: To cut off from a parent, or not....that is the question

 

[Beth McHugh]

Try this article:Your Online Counselor - Beth McHugh - Going "No Contact" with your Narcissistic Parent: Good or Bad

This is an article discussing the pros and cons of going no contact.

Best,
Beth

 

[phoebe22]

It is intensely frustrating to deal with it because I have seen the look on others peoples faces that know us both. They seem to be saying that "she just has resentment", "she's just sensitive". My mother is really good at hiding her ways and only expressing them around one person so she doesn't have to be accountable for it.

A few years ago I realized that there had been quite a few people who saw a lot but felt helpless to do anything. Some people would eventually quietly disconnect themselves, others maintained a careful distance while continuing to associate with her. I don't think many knew what made them uncomfortable, but not long ago a long-time friend (of mine) very astutely observed once that she never knew who my mother was going to be at any given time or on any given day. She had remained on friendly terms, but kept my mother at arms' length.

My overall experience was that the best way for others to have any idea of what she was really like was to stand back and wait. The more I said, the more she'd make me look like the "bad guy", so silence became my only voice.

If that makes any sense at all!

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

My overall experience was that the best way for others to have any idea of what she was really like was to stand back and wait. The more I said, the more she'd make me look like the "bad guy", so silence became my only voice.

I think I know what you mean! My N mom can be very nice and appear doting to me in front of some people, in front of others she would belittle or humiliate me. My youngest brother was considered the 'golden child' be she still sought to control and own him, and he figured it out and got away. But even though my brother knows she is a manipulative and controlling and unreasonable person, he does not remember how I was treated. It was like I was in one bubble as I grew up, and my youngest brother was in his own bubble, and same with my middle brother. It's like we were never 100% aware of how the other sibling was being treated differently by her. We were all in our own separate compartments. I know my dad was never home when she lost her cool and yelled and screamed at us, or broke things, or slapped us around. I know she treats me a lot worse on the phone when I call and he isn't home.

I have taken more extreme measures. I advised them by email that I will not talk on the phone anymore because my dad never says anything and mom always has control of the conversation, and also that I do not feel good about myself after talking. So I am restricting myself to emails only for now. At first it was a real relief when they moved two provinces away, but it soon became evident that my N mother still wanted to control me from there! Hence my sealing myself off from her. If you want to survive, you pretty much have to distance yourself. It's just too painful to have her open the same wounds over and over with different weapons. How is someone supposed to ever heal properly? I have not completely given up on the idea to absolutely sever myself completely from my parents. It took me a long time to come to this point though, so we will see. Even if I have to chew off my own limb, I would prefer to leave a part of me behind and miss it and go on living, rather than be in constant pain. Even though it would be painful, my fate might be worse if I stayed in her steel jaws, feeling those metal teeth gnawing through meat and grating against bone.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Yet the victim of the narcissist struggles on until such time as they go into therapy for their own emotional difficulties. Often then, the therapist fails to locate one of the sources of their pain - a narcissistic parent. In coming articles, we will look at this phenomenon and how misdiagnosis can lead to further feelings of self doubt.

DAVE: lol Yep, that's exactly what happened. I had some kind of idea it was to do with the way I thought and dealt with situations, and I noticed for the most part that I seemed to have continuous errors in judgement when it came to choosing a job, or (in the past) choosing relationships. I suspected that something was wrong with my mother, even at a very young age... So somehow, there must have been a little thread of sanity hidden somewhere in my brain... lol I thought she wasn't right in the head... I'm still dealing with confidence issues (although mostly at work I doubt my abilities to do my job)... And I lack the will to use effort in friendships anymore. Relationships with females are especially tough for me to keep, I feel a lot better just being 'one of the guys.' I think I was a bit of a Tomboy, playing with ants and bugs and hanging out by myself or my brothers and their friends most of the time. I am recognizing manipulative and bullying behaviour a lot more readily and I give myself a lot of distance. I also don't like clingy or needy people (although I admit, yes, there were times in my life where I was VERY clingy and needy and probably irritated a few people, so I feel bad and want to help these types of people, but I don't want people to suck the life out of me anymore so I suddenly get hard to contact). I am lucky to have my husband and about two or three other people who we both really trust and have a very reciprocal relationships with. It's not us hanging out with "ME people" all the time anymore, or letting people talk us into having a BBQ party over at our house, or getting guilted into picking someone up because they don't feel like driving somewhere to meet us.

I'm 40 years old, and it took me from my late thirties until now to get to this point, and I got a ways to go. But at least I seem to be heading in the right direction.

CAT DANCER:

But NPDs do have some moments of generosity too at least from what I've experienced. They CAN go through moments of normalcy and that is one thing that makes it extremely confusing for a child. They can be kind and loving and all kinds of other things that make them seem like a really good parent, at least to an outsider.

I remember some 'good times' too, but you know what, we probably had a good time in spite of what was probably really going on. For instance, anytime my mother did anything 'nice' she was probably showing off (birthday parties) or trying to get recognition for something (dinner party for choir members). Usually anything fun we did was decided on or was controlled by my mother. There was some kind of ulterior motive driving her no matter what she did, or at least that's what it seems like in retrospect.

 

[NakedWombat]

Cutting off connection can be made harder by all these people who tell you that you're wrong for doing so. But they only see the sweet pure as the driven snow version of such parents. You know what you have to do. Do it. In about a year, you'll start to feel the difference.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

I didn't think I could cut myself off from my parents either, for exactly the same reasons. I wasn't ready to deal with becoming an orphan or making my parents dead to me. It just sort of gradually happened that way. I still allow for emails and messages via social networks, but I haven't even partaken in that activity lately, because I can see my mom interfering in it all over again. It's like I put up a protective wall with a hole in the middle of it that my mom and dad are on one side and I am on the other. As the years go by the hole gets smaller and smaller. I used to be able to talk to my mom on the phone and my dad via email, but because I took away the phone (it was too hard to put up with her on the phone), she's managed to invade the emails I used to treasure having with just my dad. So I get no joy out of emails anymore.

And the hole in that wall keeps shrinking. I think it's about the size of a peephole now. Maybe my mom is circling it like a drain!