Bad references

[wren]

I recently graduated from university and then attended a college where I had a miserable class experience. I was depressed all year, only recieving counselling about once every month, and on top of this experienced intense panic attacks and social anxiety. The class was extremely critical, and I did not find the teachers supportive given my circumstances.

I'm now looking for a job in the field I studied for, but at a recent interview (with a former grad of the same program) the interviewer asked if she could call my former teachers for a reference. I choked and said yes, but then said I'd prefer they call the company for which I did my internship. The internship was extremely positive and I performed "beyond expectations" in many of the aspects I'd struggled with in the more toxic environment of my class. In my class I had been described as coming accross as snobbish, cold, stern, (I clam up when I'm nervous - and my teacher was very unsympathetic when I told her of this fact) and my trigger lable, lazy. At my internship I was described as professional, personable, articulate, very approachable, hardworking, as going above and beyond to help, and demonstrating a great deal of enthusiasm towards the subject. The director of the company called me "wonderful" and they even threw a party for me when I left.

I felt like having this glowing review may still help me get the job, but felt uneasy about having to be apprehensive about calling my teachers.
I suspect they called the teachers anyways, and I did not get the job.

The bad part is, I have not have panic attacks since I left the class. I feel like I am definately a hard worker who is eager to please (all of my former employers have always asked to have me back if I wished to return) but who reacted negatively to an critical, high stress environment. (My teacher called it the "no touchy feely zone" and confrontation was often rewarded). I want to prevent this from happening inthe future should I be in a high stress situation where I feel attacked again.

I felt very alone in the class, and find it hard not to be resentful given that I was going through a very hard time that year.

I withdrew into myself and became defensive as I often do when I'm under extreme stress and feel very little understanding from those around me (as I did in that situation).

I go to a psychologist where my treatment focuses a lot on CBT, but I know that I have certain sore spots that are pushed sometimes and a different side of me comes out.

CBT works, but if I avoid doing certain CBT activities because I have an underlying fear-- for instance, I'm worried that if I brush it off with a CBT technique I'll be taken advantage of and not actually deal with the problem-- what kind of therapy/reading should I look into?

Has anyone else gone through a darker period at your job? How did you deal with it when you left?

(It might also be of use to note that I have been diagnosed with Depression, Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Body Dysmorphic disorder, the three often converging into one glorious package . I have only this past year sought treatment but have been stuggling with it, particularily depression for over 10 years.)

 

[David Baxter PhD]

I go to a psychologist where my treatment focuses a lot on CBT, but I know that I have certain sore spots that are pushed sometimes and a different side of me comes out.

CBT works, but if I avoid doing certain CBT activities because I have an underlying fear-- for instance, I'm worried that if I brush it off with a CBT technique I'll be taken advantage of and not actually deal with the problem-- what kind of therapy/reading should I look into?

That's not how CBT works, wren. The goal is primarily to evaluate your self-talk and cognitive interpretations to question or challenge them for possible "cognitive distortions", not to dismiss your feelings or reactions.

What about listing people other than the college as references? For example, supervisors in your internship, professors from university, even teachers in high school, former employers... there's no law that says you have to use the teacher (was there only one?) in the college program. If asked, you can always say that you completed the program but had a personality clash with that specific teacher.

 

[wren]

Thanks for responding David.

I didn't list my teachers as my references, and would in fact prefer not to do so. I only said yes because I was asked if they could be contacted, and I didn't want to say no in case it made me look like I had something to hide. I quikcly said that I'd prefer they call my references though.

I didn't know if saying we had a personality clash would set off alarm bells, but I would probably say that if asked in the future.

When I refer to cognitive distortions, I do see what you're saying. I guess what I mean is this: I'm worried that if I always pass off my hunches as "cognitive distortions" I'll miss key red flags and I'll end up getting taken advantage of.

I know that more often than not my cognitive distortions make life harder for me, but there have been times that my perceptiveness has helped me to pick up on something important that I might've passed off had I just assumed it was a distortion (mind reading etc.)
I guess therein lies my concern.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

That's a misunderstanding of what CBT is about. It's not that your "automatic thoughts" are always "wrong"... it's that they might be. So what you do is challenge and evaluate them, not necessarily dismiss them and certainly not dismiss them out of hand.

Sometimes, even negative thoughts and feelings are appropriate (e.g., anger). The idea is to separate the appropriate (realistic) self-talk and feelings from the inappropriate (unrealistic, distorted).

If anything, this should in time give you greater confidence in your reactions and perceptions.

 

[braveheart]

I indeed have had a period in my previous career where I was very ill - but undiagnosed and untreated at that point. Retrospectively, it was an episode of severe depression/breakdown, as identified by my treatment team now.

How did I deal with it when I left? Well, my situation is different, in that I was unaware that I'd been ill. [I had some sense, but shoved it away because of bad memories about 'mental illness' and also just thought I was a bad an incapable person - alternating with a defensive belief that I was just unreacognised, bullied and wronged - which was in effect partly true. It was more that I was unsupported and over-burdened.] I had to leave that job, or face a disciplinary procedure. The employer - a primary school head-teacher - would only give me a reference for supply [substitute] teaching, not another teaching job. Which was a real downer, but I did get onto the supply teaching pool, and thence an agency, and managed to get some money keep coming in, until I stacked up a lot of voluntary work experience and got into treatment for my illness, and was eventually able to change career.

I always had the shadow of those teaching experiences when applying for jobs. But now I have more available referees. The only issue will be should I ever be in a position where I have to go back into teaching. But I'd be coming from a totally different place.

I've also had the situation where a university tutor just didn't like me. But then my tutor the following year was very sensitive to that, and did her best to 'protect' me from her.

Similarities and differences in our stories. Sorry for the length of my response, but you're not alone.

 

[wren]

Hi David,
I do see what you mean about CBT. I will try more in the future to really use the techniques I've learned. I guess the only one I have the issue with is the "shoulds". Assuming I "should" be doing something or that someone "shouldn't be so rude" etc. is apparently a cognitive distortion. But sometimes I feel like should-ing myself is the way I keep myself on track with what's important. And I feel that if I always say "who's to say whether they should treat me like or not?" about people who are un-neededly rude then I'll get walked over.
It's finding that balance, I guess. I haven't yet figured it out because I have tended in the past to go between being walked over, letting the resentment build and then getting upset.

Thanks for sharing your story, braveheart. It really does help to know that someone else has experienced something similar. Teaching is a difficult arena in which to find a job these days so my heart goes out to you. It's great you've been this persistant.

I would never have suggested my teachers for a reference, except that the interviewer brought them up and asked if they could check them. I was put on the spot. I found this odd since usually employers ask you for your own list of references rather than putting you on the spot and seeing what you'll say to them calling someone of their choosing.
I also know bringing up depression and anxiety disorders make some interviewers uncomfortable and can ruin your case rather than help it. If asked in the future, what would you suggest I say as my reason for not wishing to use my teachers as a reference? Or if pressed to explain my relationship with them, is there a way to explain the situation without sounding negative to the employer?
How do people with mental health issues deal with these things when seeking employment?

 

[Jazzey]

Hi Wren,

I'm just coming on to this thread because I related to what you were saying. I'm a lot older than you. And I now realize that most of my academic career was spent in a depressive mode.

Having said that, I wanted to encourage you. You're already ahead of the game. You recognize that you need that assistance. Grab it where you can - talk to your GP, accept medications if this is proposed as an option and, be open to CBT with a psychologist or psychiatrist. Most Universities in Canada offer psychological services free of charge (at least, mine did - but I wasn't intelligent to accept them).

All this to say that you're on the right path. Depression is a tough thing. But there's always, in my opinion at least, a reason for the depression. Definitely worth exploring the source of it all....

Good luck Wren and let us know how you make out...You don't always have to be here.

PS - I just saw your question for Braveheart Wren - I do not discuss my medical condition with prospective employers. That would be my suggestion. As for the difficulty with prior referees, honesty is the best policy. I would suggest something to the effect that you didn't quite get along with a particular person. That you're not objecting to they're contacted but, that you also want to offer other referees so that the prospective employer has a balanced perspective on it. Leave it at the fact that your personality didn't quite get along with that particular person but you have other references that can also offer a different perspective on who you are....Just my 2 cents...

 

[wren]

That's a great tip Thank you for your support Jazzey. I really appreciated your message.

I definately left it too long to get help - until I graduated from University to be exact. Then I went into an intense college course and I was only getting help once a month if that. I only started on medication part way through the year.
Sadly, I think I was looking for reasurrance from my teachers that I belonged in the class when I probably made myself seem less suited by doing so. I should have just accepted the fact that kind of feedback was not going to come.

There's a lot I learned from the bad experience and that I know now that I think I was able to apply well at my internship, but it's just getting that bad period out of the way of employers.

I appreciate all of your support.