David Baxter PhD
Late Founder
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David Baxter PhD
Late Founder
It's more about letting go of "nonforgiveness", letting go of the anger, putting it behind you so that you don't have to lug it around with you, having it eat you up inside.
You don't ever have to actually go to that person and say, "I forgive you".
You don't ever have to actually go to that person and say, "I forgive you".
I have been trying for so long to forgive one person in my life and no matter how hard I try it isn't happening. I feel like I'm doing something wrong. I don't need to ever talk to this person again but I would love to be able to let go of the incredibly intense anger he generates in me when I just think of him, and all the horrible thoughts I have of him.
There is a chapter on forgiveness in Dr Phil's Life Strategies which covers a lot of thoughts and could be of use to some.
Forgiveness - whatever definition we are using of it - is a really really hard one.
Maybe there are some situations where there will always be least some horrid thoughts and feelings when we think of a certain situation or person...?
Maybe those thoughts are going to come, but maybe it's possible eventually to put less painful thoughts there, when it happens.... and also to just reduce how often they come, their length of time, and their intensity......?
Maybe a lot of folks have already been able to do that a certain amount, which should be considered really positive.
(Also, I think that is unlikely to happen if the really painful, angry thoughts and feelings have not yet really been allowed to come up and be felt and be honoured, in the first place.)
I really don't know.....
Forgiveness - whatever definition we are using of it - is a really really hard one.
Maybe there are some situations where there will always be least some horrid thoughts and feelings when we think of a certain situation or person...?
Maybe those thoughts are going to come, but maybe it's possible eventually to put less painful thoughts there, when it happens.... and also to just reduce how often they come, their length of time, and their intensity......?
Maybe a lot of folks have already been able to do that a certain amount, which should be considered really positive.
(Also, I think that is unlikely to happen if the really painful, angry thoughts and feelings have not yet really been allowed to come up and be felt and be honoured, in the first place.)
I really don't know.....
I think the oldfashioned idea that many people have of forgiveness, is that idea. "I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?" "Yes, I forgive you. We're okay and we're friends again....."
Quite often in a psychology/therapy context though, forgiveness is thought of quite differently. That oldfashioned idea is really not appropriate or healthy for a lot of situations.
The benefits that can come from this different view though - the idea of forgiving for our own benefit and our own health - basically don't require any type of thinking/saying that the event was okay. Often it doesn't involve any interaction at all with the person who did the wrong thing, and doesn't necessarily involve any continuation or reconciliation of a relationship or positivity with them.
So yes... it's more like, a lessening or a removal of a strong, negative, painful 'hold' or influence, that something/someone has on us. A change in our emotional relationship with the thing/s that happened... sometimes even just a change of focus.
For example, every now and then you see a person who is consciously choosing to focus a huge amount of their thoughts, emotion, time, focus etc, every day, on some negative thing done to them. Lots of anger, sometimes even retaliation or escalation. (Those 'neighbours at war' TV shows come to mind, for example! Although the situations most of us are talking about in this thread obviously are much different and much bigger than something like that; but you see what I mean, in terms of the 'focus' aspect.)
A change in the level of that person's focus, feeling, and influence created by the event, would obviously be very positive for that person and their life.
Conscious grief or anger is often very appropriate and necessary. But if it has a really major part of our thoughts or focus or our life, on and on into the very long term, obviously it would be better for us if at some point that very painful stage could finish, wind down, or evolve into something less dominating. This is often what forgiveness seems to mean in a therapeutic context.
Most therapeutic readings I have done make the idea of forgiveness really sound like a thoroughly different thing to the more old-fashioned idea. Almost like a word that now has two different meanings, for different contexts. Maybe as time goes on, better words will be found to clearly define these ideas; or perhaps as sometimes happens in a language, the most commonly used meaning of the word may actually change, and the old meaning becomes archaic. (You discover interesting ways that some words' meanings have changed a lot in just 200 years, if you read Jane Austen for example...... Some words are totally not used in the same way anymore. Kind of interesting.)
Quite often in a psychology/therapy context though, forgiveness is thought of quite differently. That oldfashioned idea is really not appropriate or healthy for a lot of situations.
The benefits that can come from this different view though - the idea of forgiving for our own benefit and our own health - basically don't require any type of thinking/saying that the event was okay. Often it doesn't involve any interaction at all with the person who did the wrong thing, and doesn't necessarily involve any continuation or reconciliation of a relationship or positivity with them.
So yes... it's more like, a lessening or a removal of a strong, negative, painful 'hold' or influence, that something/someone has on us. A change in our emotional relationship with the thing/s that happened... sometimes even just a change of focus.
For example, every now and then you see a person who is consciously choosing to focus a huge amount of their thoughts, emotion, time, focus etc, every day, on some negative thing done to them. Lots of anger, sometimes even retaliation or escalation. (Those 'neighbours at war' TV shows come to mind, for example! Although the situations most of us are talking about in this thread obviously are much different and much bigger than something like that; but you see what I mean, in terms of the 'focus' aspect.)
A change in the level of that person's focus, feeling, and influence created by the event, would obviously be very positive for that person and their life.
Conscious grief or anger is often very appropriate and necessary. But if it has a really major part of our thoughts or focus or our life, on and on into the very long term, obviously it would be better for us if at some point that very painful stage could finish, wind down, or evolve into something less dominating. This is often what forgiveness seems to mean in a therapeutic context.
Most therapeutic readings I have done make the idea of forgiveness really sound like a thoroughly different thing to the more old-fashioned idea. Almost like a word that now has two different meanings, for different contexts. Maybe as time goes on, better words will be found to clearly define these ideas; or perhaps as sometimes happens in a language, the most commonly used meaning of the word may actually change, and the old meaning becomes archaic. (You discover interesting ways that some words' meanings have changed a lot in just 200 years, if you read Jane Austen for example...... Some words are totally not used in the same way anymore. Kind of interesting.)
Budoaiki
MVP
In my experience forgiveness as much as that word is circumstantial and subjective in meaning and context is as much about forigiving ourselves as the offender.
For example when offended or angered to a certain point where it becomes a conflict we generally feel anger towards the person or persons involved and for the emotions it inspires in us like becoming vindictive and personal guilt that can come from that in not being able to see or prevent what happened.
So with that said I don't think we are to blame for what happens to us but we still tend to blame ourselves for it and we tend to feel guilt over the anger inspired by the person/persons or the act/actions. I think the longer the animosity lasts the more weight can we add to through our own anger which can make it harder to forgive in any sense of the word.
I also think that forgiving doesn't mean I am ok with what happened, that things should/will go back to the way they were before or that it condones what happened in any way. I think forgiveness is a very personal and subjective thing, something that comes from looking past the person and what they've done to a point where we have some measure of peace with the act, the person/s and ourselves.
For example when offended or angered to a certain point where it becomes a conflict we generally feel anger towards the person or persons involved and for the emotions it inspires in us like becoming vindictive and personal guilt that can come from that in not being able to see or prevent what happened.
So with that said I don't think we are to blame for what happens to us but we still tend to blame ourselves for it and we tend to feel guilt over the anger inspired by the person/persons or the act/actions. I think the longer the animosity lasts the more weight can we add to through our own anger which can make it harder to forgive in any sense of the word.
I also think that forgiving doesn't mean I am ok with what happened, that things should/will go back to the way they were before or that it condones what happened in any way. I think forgiveness is a very personal and subjective thing, something that comes from looking past the person and what they've done to a point where we have some measure of peace with the act, the person/s and ourselves.
Perhaps it has to do with accepting that we are not perfect and each of us can make a mistake....however, the consolation could be learning from past mistakes to try not to repeat them. Even if, on occasion, we have a setback and inadvertently repeat that old mistake, the knowledge and effort to continue working to overcome that deficiency in ourselves is what could make us a better person.....maybe not perfect, but better.
To me that's what is important...to try to be a bit better today than I was yesterday.
Hi I am in the same situation I was also told to forgive and that it is for me. Everytime I would contemplate forgiving i would of course think of that person and feel knuckles in my stomach anger stress . Just thinking of them. Sooo trying to forgive the things they did would only bring them back to the surface and eat away at me. I recently decided that any thought I would have of this person I would FORGET them. I would not think of anything about them at all. Since then I have been living my life and funny thing is Im starting to feel sorry for the culprit. Its a process and its ongoing. I found to FORGET him the person in his entirety with no need to rehash or recollect why I should forgive him gave me a well deserved break. I had been for years trying to forgive and to me at the time it was impossible as I was always reliving the events that this person had created to do so much harm. While I was living pain rehashing trying to forgive that person was living their lives to the fullest very happy etc. I think that is what upset me is that they did not care at all. Matter of fact they where boasting their supremacy and I was living with knots in my stomach. Soeone told me " to take back the power I have given them to continue hurting me from far" and " all the feelings I have of sadness will never be felt by the perpetrator". Good luck and please this forgeting worked for me it does not necessarily work for everyone
David Baxter PhD
Late Founder
There's an old saying, Heatherly: "Fool me once: shame on you. Fool me twice: shame on me"
One can argue that everyone deserves a second chance. Maybe a few deserve a third chance. But if you keep giving more chances to people who demonstrate they don't deserve those chances because they make no effort to change their hurtful behavior, at some point you have to wonder why you are beating your head against a wall.
One can argue that everyone deserves a second chance. Maybe a few deserve a third chance. But if you keep giving more chances to people who demonstrate they don't deserve those chances because they make no effort to change their hurtful behavior, at some point you have to wonder why you are beating your head against a wall.
Guilt, David. I feel sorry for them. Often they beg me to take them back, and yet if I hurt someone's feelings they don't take me back, even though I didn't mean to hurt them.
There are at least a few people now that I have moved away from, but that is probably because they don't beg me to take them back.
I grew up on the belief to "forgive 70 times 7." Somehow that hasn't changed in my mind. I read things on "forgiveness" but it doesn't stick with me. Two of the people that I complained about on this forum are back in my life but not like they were before. One I think has moved away because I keep telling her what she says that bothers me. And recently I told her that I was not going to listen to racist comments from members in our club anymore, and she thinks I should put up with it because Jesus says to forgive and anyway, they really aren't racists. But I was proud of myself for calling one member on it and then for letting her know later that I thought she was a lot of fun to be with. I have never had so many problems with people here in the south. My friends in California were so easy to get along with. My therapist, who I seldom see, wonders where I met these strange people.
There are at least a few people now that I have moved away from, but that is probably because they don't beg me to take them back.
I grew up on the belief to "forgive 70 times 7." Somehow that hasn't changed in my mind. I read things on "forgiveness" but it doesn't stick with me. Two of the people that I complained about on this forum are back in my life but not like they were before. One I think has moved away because I keep telling her what she says that bothers me. And recently I told her that I was not going to listen to racist comments from members in our club anymore, and she thinks I should put up with it because Jesus says to forgive and anyway, they really aren't racists. But I was proud of myself for calling one member on it and then for letting her know later that I thought she was a lot of fun to be with. I have never had so many problems with people here in the south. My friends in California were so easy to get along with. My therapist, who I seldom see, wonders where I met these strange people.
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