Frequently Asked Questions about Suicide

[Cat Dancer]

I want to apologize for what I wrote about being distressed. I was really emotional when I wrote that. I feel better now. I am so sorry. I guess it is a case in point about not going by how you feel in a moment, but trying to look at the other moments, the overall picture.

I DO believe in hope. And those moments when things are ok are what I live for and they're worth it to me. I guess I get really scared sometimes.

Very sorry.

 

[ThatLady]

Janet, to me, you epitomize hope! You're so willing to work for what you want in life, and you never give up! You're an example to all of us in so very many ways. :hug:

 

[healthbound]

Who decides what is rational? Can't we rationalize anything? Justify anything?

Perhaps I was hung up on the particular word, "rational". I also question who decides what is rational and what isn't. Suicide is very a very subjective decision. And because of that, I was just saying that perhaps it is a rational decision for the sufferer at the time (ie: with logical reason -- maybe to stop the unbearable pain). Even because of a lack of awareness or education about what is happening for a depressed person, they may not know any other options.

It doesn't mean it is the best decision. It doesn't even mean it's the "right" one. It just means that I think that many people who do end up taking their own lives DO think long and hard about it and then make the decision based on consideration of the facts surrounding their own pain and personal circumstances . I think this falls under the definition of rational (again, whether it's "right" or "wrong" is a whole other issue).

I want to make it extremely clear that I do NOT think that suicide is a healthy choice. And I absolutely DO think that is IS giving up.

The question was, "Is there such a thing as "rational" suicide?" foghlaim also preceded the question with "leaving out possible depresson and\or terminal illness...". I was just giving my opinion that part of me does think it does exists even for a depressed person. But then again, I also want to make it clear that I don't know everything and that I've been affected by my sister's suicide and I am battling my own desires too. So, I'm fully aware that there's a huge probability that I am distorted. But, regardless they are my thoughts.

There is absolutely another side of me that believes that anyone who goes to the extreme of taking their own life is not fully conscious or aware of the bigger picture. But then again, I haven't thought too much about those with terminal illnesses, I have only thought a lot about those with depression.

This is a topic that has many variables, potential exceptions and opinions. I'm genuinely sorry if any of my comments have caused any upset. That definitely wasn't my intention.

 

[healthbound]

Or maybe I'm just confused about my perception of a paradox:

-a depressed person who suicides is can NOT be rational
-a depressed person who suicides IS making a choice

It seems confusing to me.

 

[ThatLady]

I see why you're seeing a paradox, healthbound. Perhaps, the definition of "rational choice" will help you differentiate:

Rational choice is a process in which individuals weigh the costs and benefits of each possibility and in which the choices made are those within the opportunity set that maximizes net benefits.

Admittedly, rational choice theory is something that is used mainly in economics; however, it can be applied just as well to human behavior. If we look at the above definition, we see that the costs and benefits are weighed and choices made based on what will give the most benefit. A person who suicides actually receives the least benefit. Had they made the choice to check themselves into hospital for treatment, they would have made the choice that would have gleaned the most benefit. However, due to their illness, they were unable to arrive at that conclusion. Their mind would not/could not think rationally.

Does that make any sense?

 

[Halo]

I am going out on a limb here and am going to admit that this whole thread is completely over my head

Too complex and too much for me or maybe it is that I just don't have the brainpower after working all day to sit down and really try to comprehend what is being written. Ya, that sounds more like it.

My opinion, there is no such thing as rational suicide and if one is seriously considering taking their own life then their thoughts are distorted and they are not thinking rationally at all.

 

[healthbound]

A bit.

Can they be said to have really made a "choice" then? How can I be rational (think I'm making the best possible choice) and yet be irrational at the same time (be operating with distorted perceptions and criteria)?

Maybe I still don't get it. I feel horribly sad. Am I in control? Or am I out of control? Am I responsible for my life or am I not? Am I capable of making choices? Or am I not? Do I or don't I know what's best for me?

It's other people's perception that I'm suffering, but not as much as someone with a terminal illness. But it feels like a terminal illness to me. Regardless of whether it actually is or not, does it even matter if that's my perception?

Or even one step further...how do you know that I'm not feeling the same as a person who is terminally ill? (Dramatic, I know. And again, I mean no disrespect. I'm just trying to work through some of my own thoughts and feelings).

I feel horrible. Please quarantine if you think it's most appropriate.

 

[ThatLady]

You absolutely CAN feel just as badly as someone with a terminal physical illness, healthbound. You can feel as hopeless as they do. The difference is, your situation is not hopeless. There is hope for you with medication and therapy. It may seem, at times, hopeless; however, it isn't. I know. I recovered completely, and my daughter has recovered, as well.

For people with a terminal physical illness, no amount of medication, therapy, dreams or wishes can save them. In the case of cancer, if chemotherapy and radiation have been tried post surgery, and the cancer returns or refuses to abate, they are doomed. There is no way out for them. All doors are closed. Barring some kind of miracle, they must suffer until the end.

 

[foghlaim]

I would like to throw something in to this discussion..... if it makes any sense, great, if not, someone remove it.

​

actually TL. maybe this is a question you may?? be able to answer..

given that suicide isn't rational or doesn't seem rational to most ppl... ( I'm going with Isn't Rational..(for now)).

I'm wondering if\when some one suicides..

It doesn't mean it is the best decision. It doesn't even mean it's the "right" one. It just means that I think that many people who do end up taking their own lives DO think long and hard about it and then make the decision based on consideration of the facts surrounding their own pain and personal circumstances .

Assuming those left behind know this about the person, that they did think long and hard about it..

Does that person have to be viewed as a person who gave up? in that person's mind they were making a rational decision, weren't they?

Don't we all make decisions based on the info we have at that moment in time. Maybe we hadn't enough info or maybe the info we had wasn't good sound info, but it was what we had at the time, and we believed we were doing what was best, AT THAT time.
Can we not accept that the person who suicide'd believed they were doing what's was best for them and in doing so (accepting where that person was at) make the grieving process a little easier to go thru, (if that's possible).?? I think this is the question i was trying to formulate TL. (not sure if i have put it together properly).


those of us here on this forum have so much info available to us now...not only that but we have eachother as well. I know that i wouldn't be here if not for this forum, i didn't have much info on what was available (resources etc) to me in the past.
Suicide still is and i think will always be on my mind..
It's damn hard not to rationalise suicide, because i know it can be done.. like some one said somewhere on this thread (i think) we can rationalise anything. For me these past few weeks, have been hard cause i did rationalise it,, part of me is hanging on to that rationalisation,, but coming here everyday and reading everything and anything and even starting this thread.. has\is helped\helping.

I know this thread is and has been hard for some ppl to read..(even me) and I do apologise for causing upset,fear, insecurity etc.
But my hope is that this thread will continue to help me figure out a few things and maybe help others do the same. Right now today i believe that suicide is not rational.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Assuming those left behind know this about the person, that they did think long and hard about it..

Does that person have to be viewed as a person who gave up? in that person's mind they were making a rational decision, weren't they?

The person who attempts/commits suicide may well see it at the moment as a rational decision. But that is part of the pervasive distorted thinking that characterizes that individual at the time. By any objective standpoint, the thinking is irrational, distorted, blinkered, etc. Even many/most people who survive a suicide attempt will later see that clearly. And those left behind never have any doubt that the decision was irrational, distorted, and unnecessary. I would say that the most common comment you will hear from family emmbers, friends, and loved ones is that the act was unnecessary, that it didn't have to be that way. I have never ever heard anyone say, "S/he made a considered and valid decision and it was the right one for him/her".

Make no mistake about this. This is not conjecture. This is based on my work with survivors and with grieving loved ones.

 

[ThatLady]

I think, in your scenario, fog, the person was making what he/she THOUGHT was a rational decision. However, due to the effects of mental illness/depression (as Dr. Baxter pointed out), it's not possible for that person to think rationally. The mental illness causes distortions in thought. Because of those distortions, rationality is just not there to be used.

 

[foghlaim]

the person was making what he/she THOUGHT was a rational decision.

The person who attempts/commits suicide may well see it at the moment as a rational decision.

So.. if it can be accepted that the person thought it was a rational decision, then

Can we not accept that the person who suicide'd believed they were doing what's was best for them and in doing so ( accepting where that person was at) make the grieving process a little easier to go thru, (if that's possible).

 

[ThatLady]

No, fog, it doesn't make the grieving process easier for those left behind. Those left behind CAN think rationally. They KNOW it was a bad decision, based on irrational thinking caused by mental illness. They KNOW things could have been different if the mental illness had been treated. Because they know these things, their grief is far more difficult for them. They tend to feel a lot of guilt, which is difficult to overcome. Even though it's not their fault, they still feel that guilt.

 

[Daniel E.]

Can we not accept that the person who suicide'd believed they were doing what's was best for them and in doing so ( accepting where that person was at) make the grieving process a little easier to go thru, (if that's possible).

As TL says, the answer is definitely no. Grief is a pretty basic emotion.

 

[Lana]

What a fascinating discussion. Personally, I don?t think any suicide is rational, be it due to a terminal illness or depression (which, incidentally, has a very high mortality rate in a mental heath world) I think what makes euthanasia justifiable (rather then rational) is that we can relate to pain, to what it?s like to hurt all the time, we can sympathize and empathize. We see the wound and we nod in understanding, ?Oh yes, that must hurt? However, with depression, it is more difficult to be totally sympathetic and empathetic?we can?t see the wound, just the symptoms. I think that is the crux of the issue.

Physical pain can be controlled by medications, whereas emotional pain is much more difficult to control and/or medicate. I suspect that this ability to define pain and be able to relate to it, makes it seem that one persons decision to end their life is more valid/rational then the other. But that?s not true. Physical pain impairs judgment and distort thoughts as much as psychological pain. But, we don?t have the same ability to relate to the psychological pain and can, unintentionally dismiss the pain brought on by depression. That?s what makes mental health issues difficult to live with?it?s too easy to invalidate the pain that it causes to those suffering from it. And that is why an average person would rather have cancer then suffer from a mental illness.

In the end, all suicide is not rational, extremely hurtful to family and friends, irrevocable, guilt bearing, and traumatizing for survivors. No one in their rational mind would wish that on anyone, not even on their worst enemy.

 

[ThatLady]

Unfortunately, Lana, in many terminal illnesses there comes a time when medication will no longer handle the pain. These people reach a point where there's nothing we can do but watch them suffer and wait. It's at that point that one can understand the choice, made by the patient, to end the suffering. They can no longer be treated. Not for the illness, and not for the pain caused by the illness. It's for things like this that Advance Directives (such as Living Wills or Healthcare Powers of Attorney) are made. Even then, there is often a long period of suffering before a natural death occurs. Euthanasia is a hotly debated topic amongst those who deal directly with these situations, as I do.

 

[Lana]

Hi TL;
I?m not debating euthanasia, but was focusing on the ?rational suicide? thought brought up earlier. To me, euthanasia and suicide are two very different things.

I feel that both, terminally ill people and people suffering from depression are susceptible to distorted thinking. I don?t think that being terminally ill means that all decisions are rational. I also think that I cannot possibly know what goes on in the mind of someone that suffers from depression. All I know is that for someone to consider ending their life, it has to be pretty bad and I don?t want to invalidate their hurt by saying ?well, your thoughts are distorted, your decisions are not rational, and you?re not terminal?you can be treated?

Thing is, chronic depression is for life, so I imagine that it would be a very difficult choice to accept that or find other, alternative means of coping (or not coping) I just think that the suffering, for both types of people, is very real and I feel a tremendous amount of compassion. I wish there was some way of helping?and I feel that validating the person, and acknowledging that they?re hurting, is a small tiny step that I can do?at least for now.

 

[Into The Light]

i think suicide is the result of hopelessness. a person who wants to commit suicide is completely overwhelmed with hopelessness. they cannot see any other way out of their situation and pain. however, bystanders who observe them seem to be able to see that things are not hopeless for the depressed person. others can see solutions for him/her, whereas he/she cannot.

i am convinced that the depressed person has blinders on because they are so overwhelmed. this is where they need help from others to pull them out of their despair, and to show them there IS hope. life for a depressed person certainly isn't easy, and it can feel near impossible, but there is always hope. depression is treatable.

 

[Daniel E.]

Thing is, chronic depression is for life...

If that were the case, then the suicide rate would be at least three times what it is now. Depression, even chronic, recurrent depression, is not a lifetime event.

 

[ThatLady]

I've got to go with Daniel here. Depression is not, necessarily, a life sentence. It can be treated, and it can be vanquished. You can learn new ways to cope with difficulties, and through that learning can get past the depression. I've done so, and have known others who have done so.

Terminally ill people can be depressed, and that can destort their thinking. However, it doesn't always happen. There are some terminally ill people who are accepting of their illness (even though they certainly don't like it!) and realize that their time on earth is coming to an end. All they wish is to die with dignity and without undue pain. Under those conditions their thinking is often surprisingly rational.