I thought women are much better than us, but they're much worse

[barrier]

I had a great respect and love for my sister-in-law for 12 years. Was helping my brother and her countless times in all possible ways, and they were helping me as well. She was (i can freely say) my best friend, and i was the same to her. I considered her the most esteemed woman i ever met.

My last favor was finding her a job in a firm owned by an acquaintance of mine.

She has met him once, one year before the job. I knew what she'll say about him, because everybody who met him (or know him) says the same - the slimy person (everybody except his mother, but probably including his wife). Besides being (simply) slimy, he is a snob, conceited, skimpy, narcissistic ... One more thing, he is (naturally when his wife isn't present) very importunate towards women (it's very unpleasant to see his rude "actions" towards waitresses, for instance)

However he needed additional employee, my sis-in-law sought a job for awhile (they had bad financial situation) and i proposed ...

My first concern was, for how long will she endure working with such slimy person. My second concern was, will he attempt to approach her. Because that would be the end of her job for sure, and probably a slap in his face. I never ever ever thought that could be anything between them, not even for a millisecond, because they're different kinds of beings (human & slug-snail).

Well, she has worked there for 1.5 year, constantly (expected) negatively talking about him. 2 months ago they've left alone in the local office (one co-worker went to maternity leave, the second one got ill for longer, and she changed her attitude about him for 180 degrees.

To cut long story... They did it.

The tragedy is not she did it (she's just a human being), but did it with the person which she called "slimy".

Summary:

I proposed her to leave the job, and i'll be quiet. At first she accepted (although denied what i said and admitted one "kiss" with a delivery boy), then rejected, telling that she'll rather going to divorce than allow others to control her life.

I had no other choice but to tell.

She barely managed to convince my brother nothing happened (changed her mind about divorce). Tears, sedatives, emergency. She lost 8kg in a few weeks. My brother (99%) believed her not me (she admitted there was the sudden kiss by that boy some 5 months ago, he surprised her blah blah blah).

When i saw what are the effects of "1 sudden kiss" of some boy, i was frightened for her life if he starts to believe me about the romance with snail, and not that much because of my brother's reaction (he's not aggressive man). It is so disgusting, that i've had i fear she would simply drop dead if that comes out. When he told me he'll get her to polygraphic test, i had to change my story upside down - "I made a mistake", "I misunderstood" etc. That way i made a fool of myself (cannot go there anymore), my bro seems to hate me, she (naturally) hates me, cannot see the kids, the dog .......

And she has came back to the job or maybe to the "job" again.

Summary2:

I can't stand women anymore. When (in my view) the most respected one can do it with the snail, then anyone can do the same. Now i know, i have overestimated (idealized) her, but this is not of much help. I know she cannot be the proof that any woman would do it. But, i need a proof (which nobody can offer) that certain tangible percentage of them wouldn't do it.

I simply don't believe anymore. I repeat, i don't expect absolute fidelity, but at least following of its own criterion, or else for instance i could say "this woman is really disgusting" and next week have sex with her (?) I don't know a single man who would do something like that (unless he's heavily drunk). The accent here is on the word DISGUSTING, not bad, annoying, ugly, uninteresting person - but disgusting (oops and rich) one.

So, for the last month and a half, i have daily stomach pains, i'm refusing to see my girlfriends ("too busy"), get sick when see pretty woman (girl, whatever) on the street, refusing their "signals" with disgust, women's perfumes stink to me (really), ...

I don't ask for a way out (i don't think there is one, from this loop), i've just wrote this as a try to feel a little bit better.
Maybe time is the answer - a very large amount. But i'll never be (and don't want to be) the same again.

 

[Jazzey]

Welcome to Psychlinks Barrier.

I'm sorry you went through all of this. Tough situation, particularly since you want / wanted to protect your brother. I get it.

Having said that, I'm a woman. And I can assure you that i've never been unfaithful to the men that I had in my life, ever. I have however been cheated on, on a few occasions. Fortunately, that's really character / individual based. It has nothing to do with the particular gender (thank goodness) .

It just means that we have to be more selective in choosing our partners. And in this instance, your brother has to choose more selectively. Of course, from what you've posted, it sounds as though he's chosen to stay with her. Your job is done. In your shoes, I'd stay away from this situation. Let your brother figure things out for himself, as difficult as this may be...

When people are in love, they don't necessarily hear what we're telling them...Because it completely shifts their current reality. You have to let your brother sort this one out. It doesn't mean that you can't be honest with him when he seeks your advice, but it has to be solicited. In my opinion at least.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Uou shouldn't judge anybody, whether according to gender, color, religion, politics, or anything else, by the actions of one bad apple.

Your sister-in-law doesn't represent all women any more than Adolph Hitler represents all Germans or Tom Cruise represents all bad actors.

 

[barrier]

It doesn't mean that you can't be honest with him when he seeks your advice, but it has to be solicited.

No, i cannot be honest with him anymore, because i'm frightened what could happen to her. She has lost 8kg because of the nonexistent kiss with nonexistent boy. With the truth on her neck, she would crash. I cannot be responsible for her life. Believe me, the truth is too ugly.
I even had to inform her about his intention (bluff) to take her to the polygraph, and suggest her to clean up her mobile. Can you imagine my situation?
I can just hope this was too traumatic experience (for her & for slimy) to continue with slimy "business".

In return, she told me i should forget her number and go for "medical treatment".
(She had to talk like that as a security measure, or else i could use this warning too against her.)

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Your sister-in-law doesn't represent all women any more than Adolph Hitler represents all Germans or Tom Cruise represents all bad actors.

David, today i know that very well, BUT ....
This woman was of 100 pts to me, and i was wrong (and not consider myself dumb).

Anyway, could You please give me the proof that some substantial number of women WOULDN'T do the same, under appropriate circumstances? And i don't mean adultery but adultery with "slimy" (by her words).

 

[Jazzey]

I'm sorry Barrier, I'm not sure that I really understand the rest of the situation. From what I've grasped here, I understood that she cheated on your brother with a co-worker. But I'm not sure how she's in jeopardy. Is is because she's lost so much weight? Is it because you're afraid that your brother will do her harm if he were to find out the truth?

I will say this though - her "traumatic" experience should only be the result of her feeling poorly about her behaviours, and not for threats made to her about a polygraph test or otherwise. To subject someone to threats, in any circumstances, is just wrong and could potentially really harm the recipient of those threats. While cheating on a partner is never ok, idle threats should never be relied upon to force compliance - her not cheating should come solely from not wanting to cheat, from loving her partner enough to not want to expose him to that hurt - and not because she's fearful of any potential threat others have made against her.

Btw, I'm a firm believer that relationships with people should never be this complicated. If your brother has any suspicion that she's been unfaithful, then let him rectify that relationship without recourse to threats. No good will ever come from threatening people.

 

[Yuray]

You have placed this woman on such a high pedestal, how could anyone placed so high not let you down?

Your brother and she seem to be working things out to their own satisfaction, but apparently not to yours.

If you choose to judge all women on the responses of one who seemingly betrayed your trust and affection, your perception of things is flawed. 'Slimy' may only be slimy in your eyes. Knowing this, why would you recommend such a treasure in your life into his keeping? You said she was 100pts. to you. Why would you entrust her to someone with no points? The problem here may be one of counting and assigning points, not one of mistrust or betrayal.

 

[barrier]

Is it because you're afraid that your brother will do her harm if he were to find out the truth?

No, he wouldn't do her any harm, but he'd be terrible disgusted (as i am now). That would be monumental embarrassment for her and monumental insult for him. Believe me, this is not a plain adultery. She would be strongly judged by all (and i mean ALL) friends and family, because with whom she did it. And considering she's lost so much weight, taking sedatives all the time, several paramedic visits etc and all this without the actual truth being revealed, i'm not sure could she survive it at all.

Secondly, i don't want to crash their marriage either. I told my brother about the problem, because she said she's going to divorce but don't want to leave the "job". Why (and how) to protect someone who decided to divorce. I've still just wanted to pull her out of that office, not to send her to her mother.
Later, she changed her mind about divorce, and so i had to change my story either, to became a fool to protect her.

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You have placed this woman on such a high pedestal, how could anyone placed so high not let you down?

Wrong 2 months ago, correct now.

Your brother and she seem to be working things out to their own satisfaction, ..

Satisfaction? My brother's logic unit (once brilliant) is apparently burned (i exactly know how she did it), so he refused to see the obvious (one of his doubts was "what kind of adultery it is at 1pm ?").

'Slimy' may only be slimy in your eyes.

You apparently haven't read my post.
This word is mentioned much more times by her than by me, and also every living person who knows him has such opinion about him. This is the very problem of this "relationship". This is why i have stomach pain every day.

If you choose to judge all women on the responses of one who seemingly betrayed your trust and affection, your perception of things is flawed.

You probably also have certain most respected female person. How would you feel if you saw her with the most disgusting man you know? It wouldn't shake you up, at all? Good for you.

Knowing this, why would you recommend such a treasure in your life into his keeping? ... Why would you entrust her to someone with no points?

Yuray, she's not a sheep that i entrusted to someone into keeping. Exactly because of the difference in "points" i thought there's no the slightest need to think about it. And again, this is the reason why i have stomach sickness every day since.

 

[Jazzey]

I'm sorry to hear that this situation is making you physically sick Barrier. Sounds like you're really anxious about it all. At this point, I'm wondering if it isn't best for you to leave this situation to your brother and this woman. Maybe take care of you for the next little while?

Also, I'll take this opportunity to comment on your response to Yuray - I would ask that you familiarize yourself with the forum rules here. Particularly the rule about insensitivity to other members. Forum Rules

I don't know if you intended it that way, but your response to Yuray seems quite defensive to me. While we may sometimes disagree with another member on this forum, we encourage the members to do so with courtesy and respect.

Thank you for understanding this Barrier.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

David, today i know that very well, BUT ....
This woman was of 100 pts to me, and i was wrong (and not consider myself dumb).

Misjudging people - or being fooled by people - has nothing to do with being "dumb". Apparently, you put your faith in someone who did not deserve your trust and admiration. Sad, I know. But it happens to all of us sooner or later. The fault lies not in the person who trusts but in the person who betrays that trust. But it is not a reason to paint everyone with the same brush or to give up faith in humanity... or even in only one gender.

By your own statements, you are allowing the actions of this woman to sour ytour relationship with your girlfriend. That goes beyond sad. That is pure folly.

Anyway, could You please give me the proof that some substantial number of women WOULDN'T do the same, under appropriate circumstances? And i don't mean adultery but adultery with "slimy" (by her words).

What is a "substantial number"? And what does "appropriate circumstances" mean? I don't know the circumstances. And neither do you.

No one truly knows what it's like to be in a specific relationshop except the two people in that relationship. You may think you know your sister-in-law and your brother very well but you have absolutely no idea - and you never will have any idea - what it's like to be in their shoes.

 

[white page]

Hi Barrier,

You probably are feeling many confusing emotions at the moment.

One of the difficulties for you in this situation is that inadvertently you were
the one who helped this situation to come about.

Secondly you are feeling betrayed by your sister in law and your brother, when initially all you wanted to do was to be helpful.

What happens between couples belongs to the couple, there are areas of life
where we cannot intervene, I see a lot of hurt people in your family, all hurt for different reasons.

I would keep back from the situation for a while. Let them sort their lives out.
Don't judge any one, being human is not a fault. I know you are hurting because the status quo is upset, life does this to us.

take care wp

 

[white page]

Anyway, could You please give me the proof that some substantial number of women WOULDN'T do the same, under appropriate circumstances? And i don't mean adultery but adultery with "slimy" (by her words).

I need to say this to you Barrier, this could be seen as very offensive to the men and women on this forum.

I know you are hurting, but to say that you need proof that women in general would not jump at the opprtunity to go with one particular man you know, and that adultery is worse with him than it is with some one else, is pushing logic towards a domain which is unknown to me.

Because you don't like and respect him, doesn't mean he is not likeable by others. Your sister in law is a grown woman, who made a very human mistake, maybe her hard working life lacks sparkle, and her dreams have been crushed by hardship, it is so human to be seduced by someone who pays attention to one.

Please don't pressurise her, her life belongs to her and her alone. Your brother's life belongs to him, and how he copes with a situation should be respected.

I know how gossip can get out of hand in a community and family and make life difficult for a member who has broken a 'rule".

The best thing for you to do is to be totally discreet and respect the privacy of your brother and his wife.

best wishes wp

 

[barrier]

Firstly, i've completely forgot to say i highly appreciate all of your replies.

Of course i'm out of this now. Out and punished. From the mentioned reasons i even had to change the "side", and in my last sms correspondence with brother i "admit" "i have understood i made the mistake", and i informed her about his intentions and possibilities to investigate this (because of his "1%" suspicion).
And he told me "she'll never forgive you this" ("because" i mentioned that "kiss" and said it's just a smoke bomb). I know she must talk like that, but it's tearing me apart (what should she forgive me? - she said she'll divorce then changed her mind, so that i'm now the only one who's "divorced" from the family). God knows when (or will) i see the kids again.

You probably are feeling many confusing emotions at the moment. One of the difficulties for you in this situation is that inadvertently you were the one who helped this situation to come about. Secondly you are feeling betrayed by your sister in law and your brother, when initially all you wanted to do was to be helpful.

Yes, this is the essence.

.. but to say that you need proof that women in general would not jump at the opprtunity to go with one particular man you know, and that adultery is worse with him than it is with some one else, is pushing logic towards a domain which is unknown to me .. Because you don't like and respect him, doesn't mean he is not likeable by others.

I didn't mean this, it would be way too silly. Maybe i didn't express myself clearly. That particular man is absolutely unimportant.

What i expect (expected, better said) from a woman is to not have romantic relationship (not sex, it could happen to everyone, especially with "alcohol's help") with someone she's called slimy, skimpy, conceited, snob etc etc etc .... for a good year and a half.

Did i expect too much ?

I expected, when two left alone in the office and business trips for a month, his attention, jokes, favors (to her and children), "respect", fancy car, music, wine, ... IS NOT enough to fall in love! with somebody she called by all those names a couple of months before!

Too much expectations ? Now i think so.

This man, or if you more like such kind of men, respects women about like their mobile phones.(He was personally talking to me about his "accomplishments", like "there's not a woman who cannot be beep". He was talking to me about some "events" from his own bed, with his wife, by which i was embarrassed.) And my beloved respected s-i-l falls on such an "operation"! And all this has been made possible by me. It's tearing me apart.

That's why i raised so much doubts about the gender in general. Maybe it's offensive, yes, but my trust is broken into a million pieces.

 

[white page]

Barrier ,

I do understand your anguish, use this as a learning experience, and believe me when I say that it will all settle down eventually. As I said be discreet for a while, let time heal things.

with someone she's called slimy, skimpy, conceited, snob etc etc etc .... for a good year and a half.
Did i expect too much ?

Yes I know this seems astonishing, human nature being what it is, in certain circumstances dislike can turn to attraction however temporary.

I've seen this happen, and yes it is destabilizing. However nobody knows what another person is living or what they are needing at any particular time, it is not for you to forgive her, show your respect and brotherly love to her and her husband by accepting their choices in life.

What has happened has happened, no one is to blame.

best wishes wp

 

[Jazzey]

I agree with WP. While I understand you're feeling guilty - you have nothing to feel guilty about in this situation. You did nothing wrong. Your sister-in-law was the master of her own choices. You were kind enough to find her employment. No one could have anticipated that she would be unfaithful to your brother with the person who employs her.

I hope that you can forgive yourself very soon Barrier - I honestly don't think you did anything wrong in this situation. And I hope that your brother can also forgive you and see that your actions were driven by affection, no malice.

Now, I hope that you'll let your brother and his wife sort all of this on their own. It is now entirely up to them. You've done your best to bring the issue forward, you can't make people listen if they don't want to.

 

[barrier]

Im out of it now and permanently.

I feel like i finally have grew up (in my middle age). Where's Santa?

No, my friends, i don't like what i see in this newest world. Don't like at all.

Thanks to all who tried to help.

 

[Jazzey]

Take care of yourself Barrier. This life isn't always so dark - it only gets dark if we allow to only see those dark streaks. But amidst all that, there are also some really good people and some wonderful things - sometimes, we just have to put extra effort into focusing on these...

Take good care of yourself and I hope that this isn't a goodbye post Barrier.

 

[white page]

Im out of it now and permanently.

I feel like i finally have grew up (in my middle age). Where's Santa?

No, my friends, i don't like what i see in this newest world. Don't like at all.

Thanks to all who tried to help.

Barrier,
I can understand your despondancy, people haven't changed, from the earliest known accounts of human behaviour, there have always been situations very similar to the one within your family recently, only the tools of seduction have changed. Human behaviour hasn't.


Things will calm down, try to focus on your own life and interests, may be take a little holiday, in order to see different horizons.
What are your interests Barrier?

Take care wp

 

[barrier]

Yes, it should be the goodbye post.

It seems you don't quite understand the core of the problem.

..amidst all that, there are also some really good people and some wonderful things ..

She was 'some really good people' amidst all that.

Aging is a process of decaying of our worlds. So much friends, girls, men, women, parents, children, politicians, writers, artists ... who have disappointed us. An inevitable conclusion - the question is not will someone disappoint you, but only when will that happen, how big will it be, and how well you'll adapt to it. I was adapting more or less successfully till now.

However, this valuable attitude wasn't applicable to her. A huge mistake, and a hole in the defense. The only but devastating one. Not a single girlfriend of mine hasn't disappointed me so hard, and there were those things.

So, the term "really good people" doesn't have a value any longer. Yes, "really good people" until a circumstances come, which will turn them into the people who "haven't changed, from the earliest known accounts of human behavior"

What then we're looking for in our life - the best possible illusions.

You can admit it, you don't have to. Doesn't matter.

 

[Jazzey]

Barrier, I hope you won't mind my asking this question - why are you so invested in your brother's wife? Yes, she disappointed you. And yes, I'll even agree with you that people will, at times, disappoint us.

But I'm just not sure that I understand why these disappointments, particularly the one with your sister-in-law, is affecting you this deeply...

Have you given any thought to that Barrier? Do you have a reason why you're so wounded by this? (other than her behaviour with a person whom she previously completely disaffected).

 

[barrier]

If the question is, did i ever try to reach her, the answer is, no.
Does anything else matter?
Yes, we had a special relationship. Yes, we were a shoulder to cry on, to each other. Yes, she had a very special place in my life, as i had in her. We could tell anything to each other, about anyone and everything. When she'd cry my eyes was red too. She told me once, no one helped her in her life as i was.
But i never touched her.

And frankly i feel she (being with the lowest form of life, to which i served her) heavily betrayed me in the first place. And again frankly, if she did it with anyone else, i couldn't even tell it to my brother (and i have told him that openly). Yes it would be painful as well, but i couldn't do it (because it is questionable did my brother maybe deserve something like that). But this, this is devastating. Nobody deserves this. And i think it's the greatest humiliation to herself.