I thought women are much better than us, but they're much worse

[Jazzey]

She did make a dreadful mistake Barrier. From what you've posted above, I have the impression that she is fully aware of the impact of her poor decision.

But sometimes, people make bad mistakes barrier. It doesn't "make them" bad people. Just human. None of us are infallible. For right now, I know that you're really in pain because of her recent actions. A good friend of mine was unfaithful once. I was extemely wounded because I would have sworn that she would never do that. It made me question whether I had misjudged her. With time, I was able to appreciate that it really didn't change who she was fundamentally. It just meant that she fell prey to human frailties, as we all do sometimes - her's was being unfaithful.

It took time for me to rebuild that friendship because of the doubts that it elicited in me about her character. But I'm grateful every day that this friendship is back, that I have her back in my life and that she truly is the very person I thought she was - wonderful. But at that particular time in her life, she made a bad decision. We've since talked about it - her bad decision really stemmed from insecurity and being flattered by someone.

It's a choice we make Barrier - you can either continue to be hurt by this incident or, you can actually make a decision about where you go from here. Do you want her back in your life? Can you forgive her and accept that she made a mistake? If you can't accept that she's made this mistake, are you prepared to never have her in your life to the extent that she was there before all of this?

Sometimes, being a good friend engenders making your friend accountable for bad choices (and vice versa) and actually help them to not repeat the mistake - but accountability doesn't mean eternal punishment. It means recognizing that we've done something wrong and ensuring that we don't do it again. From what you've posted, I get the feeling that your sister-in-law is suffering, that she is prepared to not repeat this mistake....

 

[barrier]

I cannot blame you for not knowing the exact situation, on the contrary, i appreciate all of your replies.

The words "mistake", "poor decision", "incident", "bad choices", "human" ... unfortunately simply don't fit here, and i see them even more hurting. If this is human, than i'm not.

I have the impression that she is fully aware of the impact of her poor decision.

Maybe, maybe not. I only know she's back on the work, after 15 days of absence and phony "job firing". (To be honest, she didn't have much of choice, because if she didn't back she would thereby virtually admit what happened, otherwise how to explain leaving the work because of some silly kiss by someone who surprised her in a second.)
Maybe it wont continue anymore (because of such a trauma), maybe it will someday (maybe already does), who could know?

Anyway, i'll try to explain the difference between a "mistake" and something for what i didn't find appropriate word so far, so i'll call it zzz.

If someone did it with someone lousy (by its own opinion), tomorrow (or a couple of days after) this one hates him even more, and can't regret it enough. This is Mistake.

If the same one suddenly start to admire the same subject, constantly retelling his jokes, favors, converting his flaws into virtues with shining face, for a month or so. This is Zzz. (and of course i'm not talking about evidences, they take to much typing.)

Please don't use mentioned words.

This is simple about catastrophic misjudging, and tells more of me than of her. For 12 years i didn't have an opportunity to see her in a real situation. Maybe David is right, maybe it's just about a bad apple, but i need an unreachable proof. Now i'm bitter and cold about all women (although fully aware of the reasons).

Thank you

 

[white page]

Barrier,
You talk about her almost as if she was your wife, if she was your wife I would understand much better the intense distress you are feeling, however she is your friend and friendship is unconditional. You might try to stop obsessing about this.

Now i'm bitter and cold about all women

forgive me for saying this but this is really being extreme.
She isn't your wife and she hasn't been unfaithful to you.
I am begining to feel not a little sorry for her, why don't just accept what has happened, it is not your role to ask her to justify herself.
Would you feel any better about her mistake if it had been with a man you liked and respected?

best wishes wp

 

[barrier]

As i've said so many times here, it's not about being unfaithful.

Would you feel any better ...

Incomparably

forgive me for saying this but this is really being extreme.

forgive me for saying this but, it's like that.

 

[white page]

Barrier,
I don't want to get into a fight about this, but that means that all the wonderful kind ladies who have replied to your thread are worthless in your eyes.
How would you feel if this was written about all men?

 

[barrier]

I'm certainly not putting in question the qualities of the ladies here, and elsewhere. I've said i'm thankful for all of the replies.
I'm just talking about man/woman relationships.

Also, because of that friend, i'm now isolated and punished, forced to make fool of myself "admitting" i was wrong, in order to protect my friend's marriage or maybe even life ('cause she changed her mind about divorce in a day).

This family was my asylum and relaxing place. Because of my friend's act, i can't see their kids anymore (can't help with school), i can't talk to my brother anymore (she keeps him away, because she has a panic-fear of what i could say again), i can't walk the poor dog anymore (i was the only one who did it). Probably the most part of the family considers me *****. All this because of the unconditional friendship.
Ok i'll carry that cross, but please don't push me more than necessary.

 

[Yuray]

Because of my friend's act, i can't see their kids anymore (can't help with school), i can't talk to my brother anymore (she keeps him away, because she has a panic-fear of what i could say again), i can't walk the poor dog anymore (i was the only one who did it). Probably the most part of the family considers me *****. All this because of the unconditional friendship.

It was your act that brought these losses on you, not your friends. Your 'conscience' has caused perhaps unrepairable damage. Are there any religious reasons for your actions?

 

[barrier]

What my act? Would you please tell me where precisely do you see my mistake. Please.

If you learned of such an inconceivable act of your sis in law would you propose her to leave the job (which she got thanks to you) and you're not going to tell your brother?
This, she firstly accepts, and a couple of days later refuses, decisively telling that she wont allow others (me & my brother) to control her life, and she's rather going to divorce.
Then you'd say: "Oh, ok then, carry on. Sorry for disturbing you, it's not my business. Don't worry, he'll never know."

Are there any religious reasons for your actions?

?

Well Yuray, would you please finally tell me what are you talking about here. I'd just want to know.

Thanks

p.s.
And Jazzey, you have said before you didn't see my single mistake. Did you change your mind, as well?

 

[Jazzey]

I don't think you made a mistake in getting her the job Barrier. I don't think you made a mistake in trusting her and liking her either. So, no - I haven't changed my mind.

I think where we're all a little dumbfounded Barrier, or at least me in any event, is why this is your business. Honestly, if this had happened in my life, I would tell my brother. And what he did with the information afterwards would be entirely up to him. But at least I wouldn't have to ever regret not telling him. But I wouldn't resort to striking deals with her - "leave your job or I'll tell".

I won't pretend to speak on behalf of Yuray, but I understood his question from this vantage point: having religious beliefs would explain this extreme viewpoint that you've taken on this matter. A matter which, frankly, is out of your hands. It's truly between the couple.

And I agree with Yuray on the following point too: you're not seeing the children or walking the dog - that's your decision. This is a marital issue Barrier. Your role should now be limited to being the caring and supportive sibling...to your brother.

While I don't believe that you've made a mistake Barrier, your reactions to this situtation (based on what you've posted) and whatever actions you decide to take from here could very well result in an irreversible mistake. Do you really want to be out of your brother's life? Do you really want to be out of the lives of your nieces and nephews? Give your brother and his wife the time and space they need to resolve this issue for themselves.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Also, because of that friend, i'm now isolated and punished, forced to make fool of myself "admitting" i was wrong, in order to protect my friend's marriage or maybe even life ('cause she changed her mind about divorce in a day).

This family was my asylum and relaxing place. Because of my friend's act, i can't see their kids anymore (can't help with school), i can't talk to my brother anymore (she keeps him away, because she has a panic-fear of what i could say again), i can't walk the poor dog anymore (i was the only one who did it). Probably the most part of the family considers me *****.

It was your act that brought these losses on you, not your friends.

What my act? Would you please tell me where precisely do you see my mistake.

I can't and won't try to speak for Yuray but I think he's right. You made a unilateral decision to take action on your perception that your sister-in-law had violated trust. Interestingly, it appears that her violation of your trust seems more significant to you than her violation of anyone else's trust. And the fact that you feel wronged and humiliated and that your ideals have been violated is more important than anything else. Once you made your unilateral decision, there was a consequence, as you should have expected. You wanted a different consequence and you hoped that it would affect her, not you, but you cannot make decisions for your brother or your sister-in-law or anyone else - you can only make decisions for yourself.

And now, to compound that error, you are allowing this to negatively affect your own relationship, giving your girlfriend the message in essence that what you think and how you feel about your sister-in-law is more important than any relationship you might have had with her. I can only think that it is fortunate for your girlfriend that she learned this about you now, not later when she had expended more time and effort on the relationship or, worse, when it got to the point where children might have been involved.

 

[Yuray]

Barrier

You have adapted an attitude of defiance, defensiveness, challenge, and outright rudeness. These forums are to deal with resolving issues, not arguments. When you continuously challenge all that is said, it appears as though you are making the resolution of your problem our problem. It isn't our problem. It is yours, and primarily your own making, despite your insistence on blaming all but yourself. You have been shown patience, kindness, sympathy, and it is now degrading to intolerance for some. We have offered our best. You simply have to understand that we don't have any more answers. I wish we did, for your pain is obvious.

(I was writing this reply as Dr Baxter was posting his, but he has made some very impacting points)
The word barrier means an obstacle or impediment.

 

[barrier]

I think that every statement should be supported by corresponding logic and appropriate argumentation or else discussion doesn't have much sense.

Interesting how Yuray doesn't sound challenging when says "It was your act that brought these losses on you, not your friends. Your 'conscience' has caused ..." and when i ask which specific act, and what precisely would he do, i get the answer that i'm defiant and rude.
I'm just asking what you would do in my place Yuray (leave my pain aside for a second, and whether it's right or not). That way i could analyze my possible mistake.

I think where we're all a little dumbfounded Barrier, or at least me in any event, is why this is your business. Honestly, if this had happened in my life, I would tell my brother. And what he did with the information afterwards would be entirely up to him. But at least I wouldn't have to ever regret not telling him. But I wouldn't resort to striking deals with her - "leave your job or I'll tell"..

Jazzey, i'm not quite sure i understand. If it's ok to tell, how come this is not my business? Isn't it a bit contradictory? If you by this mean it's not my business what happens after, i told for many times here, that I'M OUT OF THAT now. I had to tell him because i had no other choice (she told me she will rather divorce than allow ...). She later changed her mind about divorce. When i heard the devastating effects to her, i was forced to change my story and "admit" i was wrong. Now i'm isolated. What exactly here is not my business please?

And I agree with Yuray on the following point too: you're not seeing the children or walking the dog - that's your decision ....Do you really want to be out of the lives of your nieces and nephews?

That really hurts. Don't you realize that i can't show up there without some kind of invitation? And this invitation i can't get because she has a fear and shame of me. My brother firstly said "it takes time for this to be settled down" and afterwards "i think she'll never forgive you this". He doesn't contact me at all, for 3 weeks now, and you're saying it's my decision? It really hurts.

It's truly between the couple.......Give your brother and his wife the time and space they need to resolve this issue for themselves.

Don't get me wrong but i don't know how many times i must say i have no influence, nor any contact, nor any other information about them for about 3 weeks now. Please understand - i'm isolated.

You made a unilateral decision to take action on your perception that your sister-in-law had violated trust.

Excuse me David, what unilateral does mean? Didn't i give her the choice? Didn't she mentioned divorce? What were my alternatives? What would you do? And it's not about perception but about evidences.

Interestingly, it appears that her violation of your trust seems more significant to you than her violation of anyone else's trust.

That's correct. There are reasons for that, but unpleasant to talk about. I touched it in one of my posts. However the main (as far as i'm concerned) problem isn't what, but with whom.

You wanted a different consequence and you hoped that it would affect her, not you, ..

You really mean i wanted anything at that time? I was psychologically crashed, and with no alternatives. If there was one, please tell me. She mentioned divorce, i thought the marriage is over. I didn't want anything let alone hoped something.

As for my girlfriend - i have girlfriends without obligations. It was good enough to me, and for them either.

You have adapted an attitude of defiance, defensiveness, challenge, and outright rudeness.

Is that the answer to my kind question where i made the mistake and more important, what you would do in my place?

When you continuously challenge all that is said, it appears as though you are making the resolution of your problem our problem. It isn't our problem.

How did you conclude that i expected anyone to resolve my problem? I expected just a word of comprehension, but instead got the artillery barrage. Yet nobody gives me the clear answer, where is my mistake, and what you would do in my place?

White page:

I am begining to feel not a little sorry for her

just tell me what should i do, what would you do ?

why don't just accept what has happened, it is not your role to ask her to justify herself.

Have i ever said i ask her anything? I lied for her, i'm isolated now, she's back where she was before.
Satisfied?

Thank you all

 

[David Baxter PhD]

I don't think there's any more to say, personally, barrier. You came here looking for advice. You've been given lots of that and you've been given perspectives different from your own - and you've rejected both.

What you do with all of this is up to you.

I'm have nothing further to say in this thread.

 

[Yuray]

ditto