Lithium Orotate and inositol

[Chain Lightning]

Correct me if I am wrong here please...

I won't take any medication or supplement without doing some research on it first. I was prescribed Lithium and of course I looked up everything I could about it. The first thing I found was that many people claim taking inositol helps with certain side effects of lithium, like psoriasis and polyuria. But I also read that if you take a highly bio available form of lithium like lithium orotate, you take so much less of it that you avoid most if not all side effects. The pharmaceutical lithium has a much lower bio availability. So you have to take amounts that are nearly toxic.

"The lithium salt of orotic acid (lithium orotate) improves the specific effects of lithium many-fold by increasing lithium bio-utilization. The orotates transport the lithium to the membranes of mitochondria, lysosomes and the glia cells. Lithium orotate stabilizes the lysosomal membranes and prevents the enzyme reactions that are responsible for the sodium depletion and dehydration effects of other lithium salts. Because of the superior bioavailability of lithium orotate, the therapeutic dosage is much less than prescription forms of lithium. For example, in cases of severe depression, the therapeutic dosage of lithium orotate is 150 mg/day. This is compared to 900-1800 mg of the prescription forms. In this dosage range of lithium orotate, there are no adverse lithium side reactions and no need for monitoring blood serum measurements."
Nieper HA The clinical application of lithium orotate. Agressologie 14(6). 407-411, 1973

There was a study comparing Lithium Orotate to Lithium Carbonate. The problem with the study is they used the same amount of the "natural" lithium as they used of the prescription form.
Kidney Dangers of Lithium Orotate?

 

[David Baxter PhD]

CL. it is a grave mistake to make any changes to your medications or to add any non-prescription drugs or herbal remedies without first checking with your doctor and/or pharmacist. None of us have the medical background to give you this sort of advice.

Please speak to your doctor as soon as possible before making any changes in what the doctor has prescribed.

 

[Chain Lightning]

I'll call him and ask him if he has heard of Lithium Orotate. Just for the record, I wasn't going to take both...I just filled the prescription today (haven't taken anything)...had to recover from labor day weekend...likely was my last time partying, so I had to live it up!

 

[Andy]

CL, I am on Lithium Carbonate and have looked at Lithium Orotate a lot in the past.
From what I have read LO does have side effects and is far worse for your kidneys. If you take it for bipolar disorder, to get anywhere near a therepeutic dosage of levels your kidneys would be in full shock.

Plus personally I think for the amount of time it has been around you would think it would be used more often if it worked so well "without side effects". Just my opinion and two cents.:goodjob:

 

[Chain Lightning]

Well see that's what I am trying to figure out exactly...there is only one study on rats that showed problems with their kidneys...the only thing is, they were given many times the dose they would need. So, how bad is it I wonder? With the orotate, you take way way less...like 10% of the regular amount. They need to do more studies, and use the correct amount.

Loosing kidney function is one of my main concerns about Lithium Carbonate...kidney disease runs in the family. My brother has had a kidney transplant, I know what he went through and how he has to live now. I think I am going to call my doctor and ask him about the orotate and also if I can just go ahead and get the blood work done (minus the lithium test). I want to be sure I have full renal function before I start on Lithium...it would at least make me feel better about it. He wanted me to go ahead and take it then get all the blood work done w/ the lithium blood test. I don't mind going back for the lithium test later.

 

[Andy]

If you have kidney disease running in your family, maybe you should tell your doctor that and see about going on something else.

As far as the orotate, from what I remember, those studies were done over 30 years ago. I wonder how come they have not done much research since then, did they just give up on it? Also if it works so well why is it not FDA approved. I may be wrong on that as it was a long time ago I looked at it.

I think that just because it's natural does not mean it can't be just as bad for you or worse. I really don't think Dr.s would prescribe a more dangerous form (lith carb) if there was a safer form out there.

I definitely think you should run this all by your doctor before you decide on either, especially with kidney disease in your family. Either form are harsh on your kidneys. Plus, I don't know the cost of it but it is not covered by health care like the carbonate is.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[Chain Lightning]

I called the health food store and asked them what they think about it and was going to then tell my doctor what they said and then get his opinion. But...the guy who own the store pretty much said he didn't think it would work for anything other than mild depression. That sucks, I'm not going to waste my time or possibly hurt anything. I'm so aggravated right now.

So I am going to look into getting a CBC done first where they look at organ functioning. If everything is good then I'll take the Lithium Carbonate. The first drug he wanted me to take was Trileptol but its expensive so that's why he prescribed the Lithium. Anyone know how long it takes for trileptol to start working?

Edit: BTW I did mention the kidney thing running in the family and he didn't think it would matter if I started on lithium and then have all that kind of blood work done with the lithium blood test. He said if anything shows up they'd call me and I'd have to quit taking it. Am I just worrying too much?

 

[Andy]

I have never been on Trileptol but I imagine it is the same as any other drug. Takes about a week to a month give or take. That also depends on whether your dosage needs to be adjusted a lot or very little.

The reason your Dr. probably wants you to go on the lithium for a week and then get your blood test is because he needs to establish a base line (that may be the wrong term) so he knows where to go with adjusting or leaving your medication where it is at since it is a fine line between being therapeutic and having toxicity. You may be ok with a low dose and you may have to to increase it. More then likely he is checking your kidney's along with your thyroid as well but when starting lithium you have to have that "base line".

Hopefully that helps. Cheers:goodjob:

 

[Chain Lightning]

What I was wondering is why not do a thorough blood test to make sure I have healthy renal function before starting on a medication that could lower it. Wouldn't it make sense to make sure its 100% to start with?

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Am I just worrying too much?

Probably. I'm not sure if your doctor explained this to you but with lithium they should be doing regular and frequent blood tests, partly to check the levels of lithium in your bloodstream and partly to check for certain side effects like thyroid function. So he's right: If you do start to show early signs of a problem, they will know fairly quickly and he'll just switch you to something else.

 

[Andy]

I'm lost...

CL If your Dr. is doing your blood work within a week or so then it shouldn't make any difference on your kidneys. I am just going on things that I have heard etc. and I am not a Dr.(no need to point out the obvious, eh?) I suppose he could do two blood tests but it's pointless to do one seperate of the other. If you are really stressed about the kidney thing then you have every right to ask for a blood test first before you go onto the lithium. I am pretty sure you Dr. would be cautious if you have already told him of your family history. I say if you are this worried about it then you should talk it over with your doctor first. Never take a medication that your unsure about and have questions about IMO.

Personally Lithium has always been awesome for me as long as I stay on it.

 

[Chain Lightning]

Well I guess I won't wonder about this any more:

* One study showed no difference in the availability and clearance (how fast the medicine leaves the body) between the different formulations of lithium (Smith et. al. 1976).

* Another study showed a significant difference between lithium orotate and lithium carbonate (Kling et. al. 1978).

* The most recent study, done in 1979, confirmed the higher blood and brain levels, but found that it was related to slower clearance by the kidneys rather than any difference in its ?bioavailability? to start with (Smith et. al. 1979). The conclusion of this last study was that it would be inadvisable to recommend using lithium orotate in humans.

One human study was done in 1986 but this looked at the treatment of alcoholism. No human studies have looked at whether or not lithium orotate is effective in treating bipolar disorder. A recent article (Pauze et. al. 2007) described lithium toxicity due to an intentional overdose of lithium orotate.

My assessment is that lithium orotate probably works for bipolar disorder ? it releases lithium into the brain and body and we know that the lithium ion is effective in treating bipolar disorder for many people. The problems are that I have no research to support that conclusion and what little research I do have about this compound is conflicting and done only on rats.

There is a suggestion that lithium orotate could be successfully used at lower doses than regular lithium, but there are also very serious concerns about kidney function and high blood levels of lithium using this product. Just like regular lithium, there is little difference between a therapeutic blood level and a toxic blood level of the lithium ion, and the toxic level can cause grave illness and even death. We have no well designed studies in humans looking at any of these questions.

Article on Lithium Orotate

 

[Chain Lightning]

I'm still procrastinating.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Procrastinating with what? The blood tests?

 

[Chain Lightning]

With taking it...I get so depressed when I think about it.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Why do you get depressed when thinking about it? What are your thoughts/self-talk about taking it?

 

[Chain Lightning]

I guess I hate the idea of taking a drug everyday and I really wish there was another "cure". It freaks me out because I don't know how its going to effect me, my health. In some ways I am in denial, thinking I am really just ok...but then I'm not and I know it.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

For people with bipolar disorder, there is really no option that does not include medication. The only question is which medication(s).

While there are some potential side-effects with lithium that need to be monitored, there are many people who do not experience these. Odds are you won't. If you do, then you talk to your doctors about using something else.

 

[Chain Lightning]

I know. Even my favorite natural health expert has no natural cures for bipolar. The only recommendation he suggests is to take fish oil to help with the depressive symptoms. I have been taking it for years. All the other "cures" touted are irrelevant to me because most of them I am doing and have been doing for quite some time. I am on a gluten/dairy free low glycemic diet with lots of raw veggies, I take fish oil, drink kombucha...run and workout etc.

Thanks BTW.

 

[Chain Lightning]

I starting taking it...so far so good, no side effects at all. I started with just 1, got to get up to 3/day.