Over thinking things?

[iceman]

What on earth does this mean, Philosophically!

A problem or social encounter ends up with someone making the statement that one over thinks things.

My view on this is, who determines what over thinking is, where are the boundaries on a topic and who or what sets them, they appear to be arbitrary dependent on the agenda or ability for the recipient to follow the topics course. If they are unwilling or unable to follow a point to its rational or logical conclusion they impart some arbitrary point at which they accuse the other of over thinking as some form of closure or as a defence mechanism.


I note, individuals are often quite happy to make some form of reason or rational for their view, standpoint, or perspective on a situation, but when challenged with a more in-depth analysis of their rational or logic they often retreat to an arbitrary stance, making comments like ?I am not going to discuss with you, or, you over think things?. A more accurate statement to make in my opinion would be, I am unwilling to explore this further, or, I cannot give the time for further discussion. In which case why enter into an explanation for something in the first place. Why not just say ?you cannot say, or do this or that due to rules or regulations or boundaries which are out of my control, which are not open to me for discussion or change, should you even be correct?.

A problem then arises accepting the above is broadly correct or accurate. In so much as we are social individuals who are part of complex social systems, if these social norm?s and values are distorted, corrupted, or incomplete where does it leave the individual who is attempting to make sense of this accepted value set knowing it?s imperfections, and inadequacies. It is argued we as individuals need to accept the rationale, logic, reasons, and accuracy of things before we can align ourselves to things, anything, if we feel it?s flawed, or incorrect it?s very difficult to place genuine cohesion to a group?s value set. We become an unwilling participant in danger of becoming marginalised and excluded. Further to this, it is argued such an individual often marginalises themselves, excludes themselves from social groups and situations and can become a hermit. This only fuels a further disconnection from society and also serves to highlight any of the personality differences as the individual develops an ever disconnected mind set from the social norms and values of the rest. Not uncommon the psychology profession will recommend cognitive behavioural therapy for such situations. But again, it is argued, from the recipient?s perspective, they are mealy attempting to get them to accept the social norms and values of and ever increasing corrupt, inadequate social set of values, which due to their ability of being able to investigate at a deeper level reveals the deceptions and contradictions of the society. Therefore, again they are unwilling to agree and accept the rationale being sold to them. These are sometimes the misfits of society, those unwilling or unable to participate or be apart of the normal working and social life. But one thing for sure is it does not make them wrong or inadequate. What do we do with these sorts of individuals?

Further to this, we have not examined the potential outcome of the above like depression, anger, and other conditions which could arise as a result of the disconnectedness of the individual. This only further exacerbates their feeling of disconnectedness from the rest of society.

 

[Andy]

Welcome to Psychlinks iceman. :2thumbs:

I love it. I think people respond with such things as "your over thinking things or I don't want to discuss with you..." either because they don't want to get into a conversation that may cause them to feel uncomfortable and just the over thinking comment as a way to respond when they don't know what else to say. Then again, who knows why any one person says or does anything.

I agree that society is very cookie cutter like. I don't know if I would class myself as a hermit but I go out very little. I do find that the fact that I am not doing what the majority are doing or have done, it makes it very hard to go out into society and the more I have it in my face like I am not doing what I am suppose to, the "norm" it makes it harder for me to try to get myself out there. I am excluded. I am angry,depressed,bitter, lonely, hopeless... It definitely adds to the struggles already present. What do you do with those sorts of individuals? You give them therapy that they cannot really use because they are at home with no one to talk to. Hard to do the work associated with the therapy without human contact. Then (personally) you just let them be, hope they come back out into the world.

Anyway, as you can see you wrote that out with a little more intelligence than I so I hope I didn't misunderstand, I have concentration issues but if I did read it correctly then I have thought this myself many times. You say it better.

Is there a reason your angry about this? I'm assuming this is anger due to the thread.

 

[iceman]

Thanks for the positive feed back. Yes your observations are not unfounded, there is a link there or a description connected to myself. Also you were right regarding some degree of anger I hold onto at times. Nevertheless, I often feel this not unjustified, As my view of this world is a complex one, far to complex to convey within this short post. I spent many, many years attempting to understand where I was coming from, and analysing others conclusions and comments about me. Often it’s the blind attempting to lead the blind I have found when dealing with me, at least. Societal officials ( doctors, psychiatrists, and other so called heath professionals) often find their attempts to alter, modify, or retrain my approach or thinking patterns fall on waist land. That’s not to suggest I am being obstructive, defensive, belligerent, or cussed toward people, they mealy discover their normal wears and approaches are not, shall we say so righteous, or perfect. So I often find I am asked to swap one marginally imperfect view of life for another equally not so perfect view of life, but often a less perfect one, what ever perfect is. At least my view of live, is my view of life, it’s an evolving construct, which is unique and my own, which I understand, not someone else’s of which I don’t fully understand or agree with.

But what I have learned over many years is I cannot necessarily accept and trust the systems solutions to certain problems I may or may not have as being right and correct. Society, I have discovered does have hidden agendas and these agendas are not always so altruistic and benevolent as we would like to believe. It has it’s own ends and agendas to it and it’s representatives will say, and do anything to ensure the status-quo is carried on and maintained, even if this means telling those who are possibly right they are wrong! Even to the point of prescribing drugs to aid in their ends. But this should not be mistaken for accepting every professional is some odd secret police man, intent on brain washing everyone. I do not encourage this sort of paranoia or view. There are some very genuine people who genuinely wish to help and support others. Take each person as they come, always do your best to never pre-judge anyone out of hand.

Of course if one wishes to continue an existence residing or operating within this social/economic system the requirement is obedience, acceptance, and cooperation, but this is the system not always the agenda of some individuals. Therein lays the problem, for people like me ( see previous post). Some people cannot blindly accept something just because we are supposed to blindly accept it. As I see this dilemma there are 4 main courses of action an individual can take. (1) commit suicide, NOT recommended as this is a form of defeat and is very bad for your health. (2) blindly accept your situation within the system, but some feel they are prostituting their value sets and personal morality. Some can achieve this and others cannot. (3) they marginalise themselves as much as possible and recreate some sort of life for themselves which is reasonable and tolerable. The 4th option is to turn to drugs or medication as a form of self agreed or in some cases forced alteration of your mind, to calmly without question accept the norms and value sets of the world we exist in. I have chosen option (3) and recreated and changed my life and expectation of this life to as much as possible removing myself from as many aspects of everyday life as possible. Whilst this is happening one can always continue to explore methods and strategies in the future for helping yourself to deal with situations and individuals you would normally have a problem with. After all, partial disconnection is not such a terrible thing many, many religious individuals take this path to personal enlightenment or self discovery, it’s kind self imposed time out approach, I suppose! Also, by doing this we are allowing ourselves to be uncluttered by external affects and influences. Again, as said before, this can be a 2 edged sword in so much as we place ourselves in a potential position of further disconnectedness from the most of society. Nevertheless, it’s not about society it’s about you the individual and your personal happiness and wellbeing. If you end up being happy in this newly created life you have chosen, does this make it wrong, of course not. Not being normal ( what ever that is) being like most others does not make us wrong at all!


Excuse any type errors I put this together quite rapidly!

 

[Daniel E.]

What do you do with those sorts of individuals?

In Japan, which was formerly an extremely collectivist society, there are now a number of young adults who live as shut-ins (hikokomori). One treatment approach includes the person moving to a shared living environment:

The socialization approach to hikikomori treatment views the problem as one of socialization rather than mental illness. Instead of clinical treatment in a hospital, the hikikomori is removed from the original environment of the home into a shared living environment and encouraged to reintegrate into social groups through daily activities with other hikikomori who are already in various states of recovery; this approach shows the person that they are not alone in their condition and appears to be successful for most cases.

Hikikomori in Japan? - Yahoo! Answers

Regarding therapy, what some people may forget when criticizing CBT is that:

1) CBT includes behavior therapy, which includes lifestyle changes. Hardly anyone argues against lifestyle changes like exercising more or joining the local astronomy club.
2) There are other compatible approaches like solution-focused therapy that focus on a person's strengths. Most good therapists do that anyway.

 

[Andy]

Well I am definitely not Hikikomori, although I can relate to some of the people I have spoken with ( on line) who say they are. Personally I think a shared living, group home type of arrangement would make me worse off. Anyway, I guess that would be different with each person.

I hope that didn't come across as criticizing CBT (what I said). I have always said CBT worked great for me, when I was actually in society more. I meant it doesn't do much good personally in my situation now. A lot of the other types wouldn't be helpful in my situation either. Not saying they don't work.

 

[iceman]

In Japan, which was formerly an extremely collectivist society, there are now a number of young adults who live as shut-ins (hikokomori). One treatment approach includes the person moving to a shared living environment:



Regarding therapy, what some people may forget when criticizing CBT is that:

1) CBT includes behavior therapy, which includes lifestyle changes. Hardly anyone argues against lifestyle changes like exercising more or joining the local astronomy club.
2) There are other compatible approaches like solution-focused therapy that focus on a person's strengths. Most good therapists do that anyway.

I do agree with your comment regarding overlooking aspects of CBT there are some positive aspects to it as you mentioned life style changes, I would most definitely support these aspects of it. Also I would say CBT does have a good place with society. I was trying to say, it’s not the spanner which fits all nuts and bolts of life though. Nevertheless, it’s sometimes treated as such.

 

[Daniel E.]

Therapy can also help one identify self-defeating rationalizations of ingrained habits like avoidance behaviors, e.g:

Avoidants who say they want to be alone are often really expressing a fear of connecting...

http://books.google.com/books?id=9f...n&pg=PA58#v=snippet&q=rationalization&f=false

 

[iceman]

Therapy can also help one identify self-defeating rationalizations of ingrained habits like avoidance behaviors, e.g:

This can also be true! Nevertheless, this is not always the case, a fear of connection does not necessarily mean the fear is completely unfounded. The main word hear is fear, fear of anything does not negate the fact some fears are rationally founded. And should be adhered to, like playing on a motorway, you would be a fool if you did not fear playing on a motorway, it can be rationalised why it’s fearful and stupid to do it. Also, this could be applied with regards to connection, connection with some social groups or societies. What are you considering connecting to? If the rational or logic dictates it’s painful, troublesome, full of problems, stress, and anxiety, then I would argue it’s founded to fear such connections.

 

[Daniel E.]

Yes, a similar point from the same book:

A caveat is that is necessary to distinguish rationalization from its opposite: guilt about being oneself...In guilt about being oneself, matters of natural preference are turned into things that are feared. Thus one woman who wanted to remain single but was embarrassed to say so said, instead, "I am an avoidant, and as such too fearful to even try to connect."

http://books.google.com/books?id=9f...q=rationalization&pg=PA60#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Daniel E.]

I agree that society is very cookie cutter like

Though all cultures have their own social norms, there are at least millions of small, different but overlapping social "tribes" within any country. So if you see it like social networks, the possible connections are in the billions at least. Worldwide, it would be in the trillions.

Also:

While I think there are people out there who want to be a cookie, there are not many...

What I am saying is, don't get too caught up in theories about conformity. I have tried the life of non-comformity, specifically, and believe me, there are a lot worse things to be than a cookie. The impoverished alcoholic, the drug addict, the homeless man, the prostitute...they are not conformists either. If you want to be, say, an artist and wear dreadlocks and live in a treehouse, then do it. Don't do it in defiance of anyone, do it because that is the what makes you sleep good at night. And if you want to live in a subdivision because you like wide sidewalks and community pools, live there. Don't do it because you feel like you have to be a cookie, do it because you want to be comfortable. Forget conformation and cookie cutters; they are meaningless abstractions and contemplating them takes away time you should spend enjoying the beautiful shape of your own dough.

Conforming to society: The cookie cutter theory - by Kat Derrig - Helium

 

[Andy]

"Avoidants who say they want to be alone are often really expressing a fear of connecting..."

What about the ones who don't want to be alone, don't want this lifestyle at all? There may absolutely be "billions" or "trillions" of "tribes" worldwide, but they are not majority and they are not necessarily concentrated all in one community. I suppose I could continue to relate to these tribe members on line but that's not exactly a healthy society to belong to.

As I said I don't want to be this way, so it's not a case of just do it, just be yourself who cares what others think. If you are not around people often and you go out and are around a large amount of people who look down on you for not working,traveling,getting married, having kids etc. and you hear it from everyone it WILL push you back. I think that's the point, or my point anyway. Not that I have to conform to society, because I would love to be able to do those things if I choose, but that society doesn't make it easy when your not the "norm". If your "different" there will always be positives and negatives but it's the negatives that are in your face. Personally I think if I didn't have to face embarrassment every time I went out and was conversing with someone new, I don't think I would have retreated as much. And again all kinds of therapy work but not alone. I did CBT before when I was out a lot more often and I identified self-defeating behaviours, black and white and negative thinking and was able to do the therapy well.

 

[Daniel E.]

There may absolutely be "billions" or "trillions" of "tribes" worldwide, but they are not majority

Sometimes even just one person can make a difference:

http://forum.psychlinks.ca/psycholo...ewer-people-to-confide-in-25-have-nobody.html

Also:

We humans are so wired that the slightest perception of danger leads to feelings of vulnerability, setting into motion the impulse to flee, freeze or dissociate. And that sudden flash of trepidation can be prompted by anything that threatens our sense of control.

It could, for instance, relate to sharing ourselves personally in a way that exposes us to the other's indifference, disapproval, or anger. When we confide our thoughts and feelings in another, we may also fear that our sharing won't be reciprocated. Or that it could be used against us. Or that it won't be empathized with, or validated. And our deepest sense of vulnerability arises when we find ourselves in situations that tap into primal fears of abandonment. Or evoke its opposite, engulfment--where our personal boundaries feel so threatened that we fear losing our very self.

Finally, whether our self-protective impulse to escape such situations is blindly followed or consciously withstood depends on our ability to stay calm during periods of emotional imbalance. And such composure isn't at all "natural." Rather, it's a strength--or power--that we need to deliberately cultivate.

The Power to be Vulnerable

 

[Andy]

I agree with that. One person can make a difference. Finding that one person in a trillion isn't always that easy though.

As far as vulnerability goes I believe I was and still am to a degree, I may be "avoidant, hikikomori, misfit" whatever my issue is but I am wide open emotionally, mentally to people. I don't know, maybe having my other issues as well doesn't help. I don't see myself as escaping, more like waiting.
lol I get what the clip is saying I just think it's different for me lol as everyone does I'm sure. I bookmarked that article and will check it out. It's a little long for me to concentrate on right now.
I will go reread that link.

 

[iceman]

Opps problems

---------- Post added at 08:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 AM ----------

As you briefly mentioned individuals and particularly groups can be very fickle and very tribal in their acceptance or rejection of individuals, It’s a sad fact of life if you do not meet the criteria of the status quo of that group, your very quickly focused on, made the centre of attention and then made to either align yourself very rapidly, or your ridiculed and rejected. The truth of the this is what ever group you attempt to adhere yourself to, you need to identify their value sets, likes, dislikes, what they do, and don’t do, and if you cannot or are unwilling to be the same, then avoid that group at all cost, if not your quickly in very hot water.

For example, regarding myself, I have found time and time again social groups which are readily available to me have as normal drinking parties I call them. Well it’s more regular visits to the bar or pub, almost every night of the week, where it’s not uncommon for them to consume enough alcohol to dull their senses and start to conduct themselves in what I call a ridiculous manner. Alcohol or beer has never done that much for me so as a norm I don’t drink. Instantly this makes me a partial outcast of the groups and something a focus to make fun of. As we know regular excessive alcohol consumption is more the norm today, therefore, this instantly precludes me from being attached to a bunch of ( idiots, who cannot face reality as I see it, but rather drug themselves up with liquid courage and speak about stuff they know nothing about, and make ridiculous comments). Sorry not the type of social groups I wish to be normally associated with. But unfortunately, as mentioned, this is the norm not the abnormal situation. Therefore this significantly restricts the type and number of groups I can adhere to.

Groups I find are invariably have clicks within them. And we start to enter into rights of passage situations before being accepted. Ring leaders, have to brown nosed, if you get my point, or your out or marginalised. Yes they are a macro version of society, with trusted ears to the leaders,, wanna be leaders and just wanns be’s, individuals who are desperate to be noticed, the fools, the one who should be listened to, and the ones who want to do anything to be accepted, yes they are all there, in one aspect or another. It’s almost comical to watch. I find myself on the margins of these groups at times, almost enjoying to watch the social battles and (games people play) hahah the book, to become better accepted. Personally, I find it infantile and odd we cannot move on from such base conduct. So I choose almost every time to consciously exclude myself from them. I found social groups are more trouble than they are worth. But that’s my take!

 

[Andy]

There will always be people that have different values, like ,dislikes ,ideas, hobbies etc. than me. I am totally fine with that. I mean I wouldn't hang out with someone if there was absolutely nothing we had in common. There will always be one or two things at least that I do not relate to in my friends and family but I wouldn't stop being friends with them because of that, personally. I could either join in anyway just to hang out with them or say pass.
I understand not wanting to hang out with a bunch of partiers. Especially if your not a drinker. That's not much fun at all and would be better to stick to social or non drinkers.
I think I was referring more to the basics. When I meet someone the first thing they ask me(just making conversation) is where do you work? I do not work so then if i am lucky the person will drop it there. Then it's usually why don't you work? Then there can be questions after that if they are really nosy or else it moves onto the next question. So are you married? Boyfriend? .... then there is children and questions associated with that. If they haven't found some excuse to get out of the conversation or change the topic So what do you do for fun? lol
Anyway, those three little questions can, lead to a lot of assumptions, I get the stigma/stereotypes, the different attitude towards me all of a sudden...etc. That's what I was meaning. I know people are just asking me normal everyday questions, but they are expecting somewhat normal everyday answers. I can try or I use to try to just suck it up and think "whatever that's there deal" but if you keep hitting a wall, it would make total sense that I would not want to do that anymore. I don't know if that makes sense or not.

I think I'm just not coming across with what I mean properly or I don't get it. I'm kind of strange. I am getting embarrassed about this stuff here, so i don't know

 

[iceman]

Not at all, embarrassing or at least you should not be embarrassed, you make some valid points. small talk or introductory statements are the norm and natural to do,and your approach is quite natural and acceptable. nevertheless, in the event I also did not explain myself correctly, to find individuals or groups I have a significant amount of aspects in common with is very rare and uncommon for me. I was attempting to add some extra bits to my comments but it all went wrong and ran out of time, and looked a complete mess.

What I was attempting to Finnish on was: to say, I am looking for like minded people, who will enhance my mind, stimulate, encourage, challenge me intellectually, and are able to indulge in constructive progressive conversations. I am looking to grown, not stagnate or go backwards.

although to date this has not been independently agreed or verified I have felt for along time I suffer from manic depression or bi polar disorder, or at least some odd form of it. I cannot hold any job down for 5 mins, My brain works at light speed for a day or a few days, then I am completely exhausted, and switch off. I find most people complete and utter idiots who I find it difficult to tolerate, they have no idea half the time what on earth they are saying it's just verbal garbage. I once took a battery of tests at a Psych unit, all the Doctors there said 98% of the time we can categorise individuals in one box or another, but they said I was one of the very, very few, which just did not fit any box at all, none they have a category for anyway. I was also told I was in some respects bellow average intelligence, and in other aspects I was bordering on a genius, with regard to abstract thinking and creative logical reasoning. But spelling and some other normal academic situations I was just about bellow or a couple of percent bellow average or normal.

Unfortunately my mind does not appear work in ways which most people ever understand, I have almost a photographic verbal recall at times. I can go a lecture and listen to a sociology, or psych lesson for 2 hours and instantly pick any contradiction the lecturer says at any point during the 2 hours, why this happens or occurs I don't know, I don't try and find problems, or look for trouble, it just flashes up like RED lights in front of me. I also seem to work out many areas of science about 10,000 percent faster than most people ever could. I see it like a a plan or picture with all the logic and progressions, unanswered questions, and contradiction surrounding it. I see interconnectivity in things you would not believe within this world, and make all sorts of hypothesis about what's really going on. But 99% of people just can't understand or refuse to even look or see it. But then I crash, I can't do anything, I can't work, I can't even be bothered to speak to people, they are just a waist of space to me at times, sad but true. Then I turn to watching fantasy films sci fi and alike to rest my mind, or at least distract it. unitl I have recharged my batteries, where upon off I go again.

I have worked with some of the worlds leading psychiatrists in specialised fields, and carried out scientific research into the transferred potential, that's telepathy to most people. and we scientifically proved it works and exists. I was offered a place at Edinburgh university to carry out a PHD, but could not afford to go. And have worked with world leading theoretical physicists Sir Roger Penrose, on possible quantum solutions for the above transferred potential. I have also worked as a counsellor and within a psychiatric hospital as an assistant clinical psychologist. I have also carried out a lot of research into out of body and near death experiences. But that was a long time ago now and that's little of my background. Now I am living at the foot of a mountain range with my wife, have very few friends or people we meet except those who I have almost nothing in common with, and have turned to the internet to try obtain some stimulation. But I too have always been a misfit. But we always used to say, it's joke, 99% of psychologists need to see a psychologist. hahah

I also find it very hard to focus on one subject, my mind is always fractured going in about 200 different directions at the same time, so never really reach the end or conclusion for anything, as people have always said to me I need to focus and I could achieve some great things, but I just don't seem to able to do it. Or I work things out in my own mind, till I am happy with the conclusions, once this happens I drop it forget and move on to the next thing. So I am a mess, in many ways.