Vicodin

[BluMac81]

First a quick summary. I'm totally clean, no vicodin for 3 months now, no alcohol for over a year. And, I've been miserable since I've stopped.

I ask you this question:

Which is better, for a man to live in pain and sorrow until he disposes of himself, or for a man to live in bliss and peace until a drug disposes of himself?

Think about it.

 

[Daniel E.]

I've been miserable since I've stopped.

How so?

If you are referring to having more anxiety, are you currently seeing a therapist?

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Which is better, for a man to live in pain and sorrow until he disposes of himself, or for a man to live in bliss and peace until a drug disposes of himself?

Think about it.

Don't have to think about it. Those are not your only options. Consequently, the question is meaningless.

Option 3: Get some help to identify why you miserable and take appropriate steps to change that. If you believe the only way to be happy is to be drug and alcohol addicted, you are guilty of seriously narrow, inflexible, and distorted thinking.

 

[BluMac81]

I do agree that thinking the only way to be happy is to be addicted to drugs and alcohol is narrow and distorted. However, what I said, that out of frustration at the numerous attempts to 'identify why I am miserable and take steps to change that', I've seen many different psycologists and psychiatrists for about 6 years now, and nothing helps. Well, there are steps in DBT that help, namely, distraction (when in crisis), but isn't that 'running away from your problems'? And in CBT I can not change my thoughts just as I cannot change my brain.

Anxiety isn't a problem anymore because I use xanax 6mg/day, don't you think there should be some alternative to medicating depression than SSRI's and such? Depression is the problem, I am consumed by it and it gets worse by the day, I can only see psych therapists and psyhiatrists every 3 months because the VA is understaffed, but still I try and do what they tell me. The majority or maybe all of the advise given is temporary, not permanant. I can train my mind to catch myself thinking negative thoughts for maybe a week or so, after that, the internal battle becomes too much, and a I succumb to the thoughts.

That other doctor, a civilian psychiatrist, told me that the actual cure to depression is stimulating the opiate receptors, in other words, opiates are the cure, so why does the government not even consider them for aids for depression. Just a little vicodin tab, not heroin or anything like that. They already perscribe benzos like xanax which are really just as bad as vicodin when you think about it, you tolerance goes up and up and up, and if you stop abrubtly you get withdrawls. It's the same with Vicodin! How I use my xanax, which perscribed 6mg/day, is I usually stick with 1 mg every couple hours just for a maintenance dose (to avoid withdrawl) and if I know I'll be doing something anxiety provoking (like going to wal mart, the dmv, a new class, etc.) I can take 3-4 mg's and I am just fine. So why not use Vicodin in the same way? I am not convinced that psychology nor psychiatry can permanatly stop depression, it's just like medication, it's a few moments of relief.

Anyway, that's my thoughts.

 

[Daniel E.]

Well, there are steps in DBT that help, namely, distraction (when in crisis), but isn't that 'running away from your problems'?

Compared to the alternative (which for many DBT patients is self-injury or addictions of various kinds), spending some time doing self-soothing relaxation techniques (like watching a comedy, calling a friend, or taking a warm bath) is an active coping mechanism.

In any case, DBT is focused on not running away from problems. It's focused on "avoiding avoidance." Hence the cognitive emphasis on "radical acceptance" of what is happening and behavioral therapy for doing "opposite action" -- the opposite of running away even though one feels like it.

Also:

You are miserable and you know you need to change. The question is do you really want to change? It sounds easy but it is a lot of work and sometimes people (including me) just think it is easier to drop back into hell. Some people think suicide is an option at this point...

http://forum.psychlinks.ca/psycholo...ds-to-pain-and-disappointment.html#post167318

 

[Banned]

I do agree that thinking the only way to be happy is to be addicted to drugs and alcohol is narrow and distorted. However, what I said, that out of frustration at the numerous attempts to 'identify why I am miserable and take steps to change that', I've seen many different psycologists and psychiatrists for about 6 years now, and nothing helps.

Something WILL help, it's just a matter of figuring out what it is. Even the most hopeless cases of depression and anxiety can find relief through therapy, meds, ECT, whatever...it's very rare that there is absolutely no help. I think sometimes we think there is no help, or things will never change, so we don't even try. It's so much easier to throw our hands in the air and say "well, I did everything, and nothing helped." It's a journey...it's being persistent, and trying things long enough to give them a chance to help before giving up on them.

Well, there are steps in DBT that help, namely, distraction (when in crisis), but isn't that 'running away from your problems'? And in CBT I can not change my thoughts just as I cannot change my brain.

Actually, your brain is capable of forming new neural connections, and being "retrained". Your brain can physically change as your thoughts guide it...it's kind of like a rewiring process. But, it doesn't happen overnight. It can take years. Most people don't just wake up one day with depression or PTSD. It happens over time, as does the healing. Dr. Baxter can say for sure, but I'm not sure there's anyone CBT can't help...it's just about seeing things differently, reshaping cognitive distortions into something realistic and accurate. Anyone can do that...but it's like riding a bike, or building a muscle...it takes time, and practice. Lots of time and lots of practice, but it definitely works.

Anxiety isn't a problem anymore because I use xanax 6mg/day, don't you think there should be some alternative to medicating depression than SSRI's and such? Depression is the problem, I am consumed by it and it gets worse by the day, I can only see psych therapists and psyhiatrists every 3 months because the VA is understaffed, but still I try and do what they tell me. The majority or maybe all of the advise given is temporary, not permanant. I can train my mind to catch myself thinking negative thoughts for maybe a week or so, after that, the internal battle becomes too much, and a I succumb to the thoughts.

So it's not that the CBT doesn't work...it's that you grow weary and give up. That is understandable, and part of the "muscle building"...to not give up...to keep pushing. I would say any advice anyone gets more often than not is temporary - it's contingent on the situation at hand, and that situation can change in a flash. The advice and involvement has to be flexible, to change with the situation.

That other doctor, a civilian psychiatrist, told me that the actual cure to depression is stimulating the opiate receptors, in other words, opiates are the cure, so why does the government not even consider them for aids for depression. Just a little vicodin tab, not heroin or anything like that. They already perscribe benzos like xanax which are really just as bad as vicodin when you think about it, you tolerance goes up and up and up, and if you stop abrubtly you get withdrawls. It's the same with Vicodin! How I use my xanax, which perscribed 6mg/day, is I usually stick with 1 mg every couple hours just for a maintenance dose (to avoid withdrawl) and if I know I'll be doing something anxiety provoking (like going to wal mart, the dmv, a new class, etc.) I can take 3-4 mg's and I am just fine. So why not use Vicodin in the same way?

I dont' know enough about meds to comment on this, but I'm pretty sure the millions of dollars that go into research and development each year have probably looked at this option, and there are reasons why they've been ruled out. "Just a little vicodin tab"...how addictive was/is Vicodin for you? Advocating for something this addictive, to be mass-distributed, would be disasterous and the law suits would fly...

I am not convinced that psychology nor psychiatry can permanatly stop depression, it's just like medication, it's a few moments of relief.

I don't know that depression can be permanently cured...but it can be effectively managed with a combination of medication, therapy, the right therapist, the right medication, and willingness on the part of the client. I would go so far as to say that if any of those pieces are missing or "deformed", then the prognosis for recovery would decrease either minimally or significantly. There's no "one size fits all" or overnight cure....it's ongoing management and perseverance.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

I do agree that thinking the only way to be happy is to be addicted to drugs and alcohol is narrow and distorted. However, what I said, that out of frustration at the numerous attempts to 'identify why I am miserable and take steps to change that', I've seen many different psycologists and psychiatrists for about 6 years now, and nothing helps.

You were an addict in denial throughout most of that time. For that reason alone, it is premature to conclude that nothing helps.

Well, there are steps in DBT that help, namely, distraction (when in crisis), but isn't that 'running away from your problems'?

No. That is not focusing on distorted and destructive thoughts and thereby giving them power and letting them control you.

And in CBT I can not change my thoughts just as I cannot change my brain.

In fact, you can change your thoughts with CBT. And there is some evidence CBT (and certain medications) do change your brain, or at least parts of it.

Anxiety isn't a problem anymore because I use xanax 6mg/day, don't you think there should be some alternative to medicating depression than SSRI's and such?

First, why do you need an alternative? Second, if you need alternatives, they exist.

Depression is the problem, I am consumed by it and it gets worse by the day, I can only see psych therapists and psyhiatrists every 3 months because the VA is understaffed, but still I try and do what they tell me. The majority or maybe all of the advise given is temporary, not permanant. I can train my mind to catch myself thinking negative thoughts for maybe a week or so, after that, the internal battle becomes too much, and a I succumb to the thoughts.

Because you stilol think like an addict...

That other doctor, a civilian psychiatrist, told me that the actual cure to depression is stimulating the opiate receptors, in other words, opiates are the cure

No. They are not. At best, the benefits are short term and they make the crash worse when it comes.

why does the government not even consider them for aids for depression. Just a little vicodin tab, not heroin or anything like that.

Because they don't help depression.

They already perscribe benzos like xanax which are really just as bad as vicodin when you think about it, you tolerance goes up and up and up, and if you stop abrubtly you get withdrawls. It's the same with Vicodin! How I use my xanax, which perscribed 6mg/day, is I usually stick with 1 mg every couple hours just for a maintenance dose (to avoid withdrawl) and if I know I'll be doing something anxiety provoking (like going to wal mart, the dmv, a new class, etc.) I can take 3-4 mg's and I am just fine.

If you are developing or have developed a toilerance for Xanax, then you are not a good candidate for that drug. You have simply substituted one addiction for another.

So why not use Vicodin in the same way? I am not convinced that psychology nor psychiatry can permanatly stop depression, it's just like medication, it's a few moments of relief.

No, it's not just a few moments of relief. You can learn to change the way you think, change the way your brain reacts to things, and thereby learn to manage the tendencies toward and the symptoms of depression. Thousands if not millions of people have been successful in doing this. Why haven't you been successful? Because you are still thinking like and addict... lokking for that quick fix. It takes patience and consistent effort.

 

[Banned]

First a quick summary. I'm totally clean, no vicodin for 3 months now, no alcohol for over a year. And, I've been miserable since I've stopped.

I ask you this question:

Which is better, for a man to live in pain and sorrow until he disposes of himself, or for a man to live in bliss and peace until a drug disposes of himself?

Think about it.

As human beings, we have alot of power. Physical power. Emotional power. Spiritual power.

I'm not sure I'd want to give my emotional power over to something destructive like addiction. I would prefer to remain in control of my thoughts, my actions, my behaviours.

As Dr. Baxter says, it's not "either or". There is the third option...which is to find that balance to live life as healthily as possible. My thoughts regarding meds are "as little as possible but as much as needed"...so dont' overdo it, but don't rob yourself of the chance to be well by taking little, none, or the wrong thing altogether.

 

[BluMac81]

Thanks everyone, I will spend some time contemplating on what you said, and how to apply it to my life.

 

[Daniel E.]

Well, there are steps in DBT that help, namely, distraction (when in crisis), but isn't that 'running away from your problems'?

Regarding this interesting point you made about distraction being potentially overdone, it is a valid point when someone is outside of crisis mode:

Some of the effective anti-rumination strategies— socializing and exercising, for example, are intrinsically antidepressant in nature, and most people would benefit from devoting more time to them. On the other hand, some of the activities— like playing games and watching videos—are valuable mostly because they happen to provide a momentary distraction from upsetting thoughts.

As we've seen, [a] bit of distraction can be enormously helpful. But when the strategy is used too often, it can turn into full-blown avoidance...

The Depression Cure: The 6-Step ... - Google Books

Similarly, Marsha Linehan makes the point that if one is in crisis mode all the time, that's not a crisis -- that's one's life (in need of a few repairs).

 

[Banned]

Similarly, Marsha Linehan makes the point that if one is in crisis mode all the time, that's not a crisis -- that's one's life (in need of a few repairs).

This is an excellent point - thank you!

 

[BluMac81]

Hello everybody! I've come back here just to update on my progress and how things are going. I figured I mind as well pick up on the last problem I had. Things are actually going very well. I am drug and alcohol free, and yet I actually feel moments of happiness with greatly decreased bouts of depression (it may have come with the new medication I'm on, Effexor, as well as daily doses of vitamin D.) hehehe, it's hard to write when there is nothing to complain about! I'm going to university in January, full time and in person, with my planned majors of both Psycology and Biology (Human Focus.) I can't wait to get started, this semester I take: Philosophy: Politics and Law, English 2 Rhetoric and Writing, Anthropology, Chemistry, and Psycology Profession. I find that I am less self-concious as of late, I feel more secure with who I am, and certainly do not hate myself anymore.

I really wanted to share something with you all, especially those dealing with drug & alcohol problems. When I started on vicodin, I of course used it as a means to escape the depression and anxiety I was always feeling. I decided to ignore the stigmas and general warnings about pain killers and addiction that society had put out there. I learned that there is a time and place to fight society's laws and regulations. I scoffed at the 'vicodin addiction' law and view that it was an illness because I believed in results of the present moment, while I disregarded the wisdom of law. Laws are not out there to hold you down or keep you in your place, they are there to protect you. It's only logical that a conclusion (law) generated by a great number of people, to include highly educated people as well as people throughout history and the study of the lessons learned from that history, that conclusion has a strong reason for it. The strong reason for vicodin was that one cannot maintain the ever-increasing drug tolerance levels while still being in good health physically and mentally. Not only that, but fearing being WITHOUT the drug or alchohol, and the withdrawls that might come, puts you in a place that can not be described as anything but slavery. You are a slave to the drug because you are afraid of living without it (essentially, the withdrawls + living without your high.) So, when you run out of the drug, you in turn become desperate, and it is in the desperateness that crimes are committed and morals are pushed aside. I was quite a goody-goody and very quiet and introverted all my life until the drug caught me. The lies I had to tell doctors in order to get the drug were almost as bad as the begging I did to get the drug from street dealers. I was ashamed of myself every single time, but I kept on doing it, and that shame built itself up more and more to the point where my very existence was defined by that drug. It's a terrible place to be, so dependent on something that can let you down so easily.

Anyway, I apologize if that was hard to understand, for some reason, it's just hard to put into words, but it's the best that I can do. Keep on truckin you all and thanks again for all of the help you have given me, and others in this community. =)

-Matt

 

[Andy]

That is so good to hear BluMac!

I bet it's really nice to be on the flip side of all that you were going through.

That's great that your heading back to school again as well. I wish you all the best with that.:2thumbs:

 

[forgetmenot]

Good to hear from you
So happy you are doing well and off all the drugs and alcohol great job.
You write very well and clear and you give hope to others that are struggling by being a slave to whatever addictions they have.
Thank you for the update it helps to see someone win against the mental illness they endure as well
take care of you okay and enjoy your university wishing you all the best