Differences In Recovered Memories Of Childhood Sexual Abuse

[David Baxter PhD]

Differences In Recovered Memories Of Childhood Sexual Abuse
ScienceDaily
Feb. 2, 2009

When a child experiences a traumatic event, such as sexual abuse, it may not be until well into adulthood that they remember the incident. It is not known how adults are able to retrieve long-forgotten memories of abuse and there has been some controversy as to the authenticity of these reports.

The results of a new study in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science, suggests that there are important differences between people who gradually recover memories of abuse during suggestive therapy sessions and those who recover memories of abuse more spontaneously. Psychologist Elke Geraerts of the University of St. Andrews and her colleagues reveal that these people are either susceptible to recovering false memories or have a tendency to forget earlier recollections of the abuse.

The study volunteers included 120 women who were classified into four groups, based on their responses during a preliminary interview. The groups were: women who spontaneously recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse on their own, women who gradually recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse during suggestive therapy sessions, women who had never forgotten having been sexually abused and women who had never been sexually abused. All of these women participated in a false-memory test. They studied a list of related words (such as bed, rest, awake and tired). After a few minutes, they were shown a set of words (which included ones they had studied as well as new words) and had to indicate which words were on the original list.

The results showed that the women who recovered their memories of childhood sexual abuse during suggestive therapy were the most prone to false memories. For instance, women from this group were more likely to select sleep (in the example above) as having been on the original list, when in fact, it was not.

The women then participated in another memory test, which measured the participants' propensity to forget what they had just remembered. The results of this test revealed that the group who spontaneously recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse was the most likely to forget that they had successfully remembered certain words earlier.

The authors note that their findings argue against the generalization that all recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse are based on false recollections and "that such effects appear to be associated with suggestive therapy, not recovery of childhood sexual abuse in general." They conclude that this research has important implications for clinicians who treat patients reporting recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse. The authors suggest that these clinicians should consider the context of the recovered memories to most effectively treat their patients.

 

[amastie]

What was sad for me was that I was the only one who did remember what happened as a child. Still am. Even though other family members were present. Not only do my family have to live with a sister who is "in their face" with obvioius emotional problems but then to be told that I remembered having been abused... Instead of building on their support, it became something that "probably" has more to do with being "mentally ill" (an all-inclusive, all-diminishing label).

The mental disturbance which grew out of the abuse (and perhaps other factors along the way) became the reason *not* to put too much weight on the memory of that abuse.

Mostly, I'm not angry because I can see full well that they are doing their best to support me in every way they can.

Some problems are just too much to deal with, especially coming after a lifetime of acting out from emotional disturbance.

I said to one family member "I dont' hold it against anyone. It's life." That person was at first bewildered and disbelieving that I could say that, but let it go. I badly cheated myself out of saying, instead, "God, it mattered!" - only to keep peace as much as possible for my family. It hasn't changed the dynamic of their putting up with my emotional distancing myself from others at large, but at least the details of what happened don't impose themselves on our relating and make things worse. And it would make things worse. They are not equipped emotionally to deal with those memories,and have said as much - not unkindly, but honestly, from their heart.

(Ok, I just remember: I *do* hold it against someone. I hold it against me. Regardless of the irrationality of that statement, it's true. If only I didn't have a body that such a thing might happen to? So, yes, I'm angry at my body, and I punish it with my overeating. Having said that, my psychiatrist knows that well. I may yet, after all these years, still overcome that. Only time will tell.)

 

[Jazzey]

(Ok, I just remember: I *do* hold it against someone. I hold it against me. Regardless of the irrationality of that statement, it's true. If only I didn't have a body that such a thing might happen to? So, yes, I'm angry at my body, and I punish it with my overeating. Having said that, my psychiatrist knows that well. I may yet, after all these years, still overcome that. Only time will tell.)

I personally believe that this is all too common Amastie. We punish ourselves, not only the physical body (I suffered from Anorexia and abused my body in other ways too) but also punish ourselves psychologically with a lot of negative thoughts aimed at who we are.

And like you - my main concern is keeping the peace. God forbide that I should make anyone uncomfortable with my recollections of events *sarcasm*. The only thing I do openly discuss is events with people who were unrelated and hurt me. And then, I'm told that it was so long ago, I should be over it, that I need to stop delving into those things - that I'm obsessing...I'll share only one of these here because it's one that has come back to give me strength.

{edit: potential trigger - be careful if you are feeling vulnerable}



When I was 15 years old, a man that was known to my family broke into my home when he knew I was alone (that's as much as I can share right now). I called the police later (against my parents wishes - we were all afraid of this person who'd threatened to burn our family home down if I told) and discovered that he was a known pedophile in the province and had hurt many teenagers in my area. The police were never able to catch him because as soon as he did his damage, he'd move to a different province...only to come back a little later and repeat his patterns.

Fast forward exactly 10 years. I'm working in a local school. Students come back from lunch one day to tell me that there's a man that keeps following them around and makes them uncomfortable. Next recess, I watch *my* girls through a staff window- and low and behold - there's that same man. I ran outside and confronted him (discretely because I didn't want the children to be afraid). When I came back into the school, I told the administrators what was going on and asked that they call the police - he was on school property. They refused ....So I called them myself. (btw - didn't make any friends on this one) . The police never told me what happened with him, but I never saw him around the property again!




{edit: end potential trigger}

One statement that brought me some peace in recent times was a statement that a rape crisis counselor told me. After discussing the incident and my past, she said that, unfortunately predators sense people's vulnerability; that once you've been a victim, that vulnerability can seep through for others to see making you a potential target for other predators (of any type). So I've spent the last few months thinking long and hard about that statement.

The statement gave me permission to stop feeling guilty, thinking that these events had somehow been brought about my me. I won't pretend to have mastered that thought completely yet - but I'm getting there.

My new goal - releasing that label of *victim* by any means necessary, so that I will never again be made vulnerable to people who could harm. Finding that inner strength so that the only thing I emanate is a sense of strength, of knowing who I am and basically a no nonsense *don't mess with me* vibe.

:hug: :hug:

 

[Into The Light]

jazzey, you were very brave for calling the police. i hope that that helped you heal in part. :goodjob:

 

[amastie]

Jazzey, I'm knocked out by your extraordinary courage in going to the police once again, after he was not brought to justice the first time - and without the support of the school staff (I will never understand their reaction). At least, the police should have told you what happened to him. (Maybe he was on a pedophile list that tracks pedophiles but, in order to protect them from persecution by general public, don't give out details of where they live etc?) We have such a list here in Australia - and, I'm not sure, but I don't think they do tell people when a pedophile moves into the area.

You are one of the bravest people I've ever met, Jazzey
:hug: :airkiss: :flowers:

 

[Jazzey]

Thank you Amastie and ITL. That means a lot to me...I'll admit to this though - my reaction was out of fear. No real sense of bravery here...

I don't think we track pedophiles in Canada (Charter of Rights and Freedoms at play). And, I believe in this notion, honestly. But I also believe in protecting our children....It's a hard edge at times.

 

[texasgirl]

Jazzey, I am so impressed at your persistence and courage for calling the police. It takes great strength to do so!

Amastie and Jazzie, I can relate to your situations regarding the need to keep the peace in the family. In my situation, having been through several years of very intense sexual and emotional abuse in my childhood, we now "talk around" the subject, if at all, and it always seems to me that there is this GIANT elephant in the room that prevents us all from really connecting or speaking any truth. Although we go through our daily lives dealing with the necessities, work, raising kids, weddings, funerals, etc., the devastation caused by so many years of pain has left its toll on us. But, at the same time, I'm not sure what good it would do to even try to talk about it with each other, especially since for my other affected siblings, we have very few memories of our childhoods. To do so for me would result in my dissociating to the point of becoming nonfunctional, and for some of my other siblings, it would trigger even worse responses. Our knowledge comes primarily from the bits and pieces we do know and from actual corroboration from the perpetrators, who took pleasure (perversely) from sharing the abuse that they inflicted upon us. In short, we go through our lives with this deep sadness that pervades our relationships with each other and with others, even though we all do our best to function. For me, it resulted in many many years of being in and out of psych hospitals. And now, we quietly move through the sadness as best as we can to try to salvage what we can from such violent and meaningless childhoods.

As for vulnerability to becoming victimized again, I went through years of being what I thought to be a magnet for such behavior. I was raped by my psychiatrist, went through 2 very abusive marriages, and have finally found my way through to a wonderful husband who is caring and loving. I never understood what the repeated victimization was about and always felt as though (and still do) it was my fault. I lay awake many nights still trying to figure it out, and still fight suicidal thoughts, not carrying through because of my kids and my husband and the loss that it would be to them, especially because my last husband killed himself. I just wish so much that the pain would leave....

Sorry for such a long post, but your posts touched me so much. Thank you.

TG

 

[amastie]

..To do so for me would result in my dissociating to the point of becoming nonfunctiona...

Yes, the same thing would happen to me. I know for sure. I didn't know (or didn't remember) that you dissociated too

....In short, we go through our lives with this deep sadness that pervades our relationships with each other and with others, even though we all do our best to function....

... <no words can say what I feel>

.......For me, it resulted in many many years of being in and out of psych hospitals....

I'm *so* sorry :heart: Jazzey is not alone in having courage.

...And now, we quietly move through the sadness as best as we can to try to salvage what we can from such violent and meaningless childhoods...

For me, it was not in many way meaningless. What happened to me has had a devastating and ongoing effect, not very unlike yours, but I don't want at all to discount the gentleness and kindness of my family because it's true. I feel a need not to discuss the circumstances of what happened to me but I can say that is true.

..As for vulnerability to becoming victimized again, I went through years of being what I thought to be a magnet for such behavior...

I believe that happens very much among survivors of abuse. An aspect of my behviour which is most difficult for me is that, although the dissociated "alters" do not take me over completely, I do act out a lot from them, and one of the commonest ways is that I act out from a very young seductive child who feels compelled to pre-empt any harm that might befall her if she *doesn't* act in that way. Of course, no normal person would recognize that is happening. To my family, I have tried to explain. By doing so, I hoped to diminish its impact, but it is too hard for them. It really is, so it becomes one more piece of an impenetrable "mental illness", and a more difficult piece to reconcile. Telling them may have had an opposite effect so life doesn't get easier with telling. In my twenties, I acted out in relationships from that child alter. Now, at least, between size - thank God for morbid obesity<lol> - and more clearly established mental disturbance, *and* age (let's not forget that), I still act out from that child in some ways but to a much less extent and never have those relationships at all - which suits me!
[On the subject of obesity, I wouldn't like you to think that I see it as the optimal choice either, and I *am* making efforts to overcome that. It is just that I see how much I am invested in it.]

...I was raped by my psychiatrist..

I am so very sorry. If, like me, you act out in a dissociated state, proving that he was at fault, though not impossible, would make it harder for you in a number of ways. If, however, you are able to prove to a court that he did that, he should certainly be held to account for it.

...still fight suicidal thoughts, not carrying through because of my kids and my husband...

And I don't mainly because I'm not quite there and partly or mainly because of my family.

...my last husband killed himself..

The hurt I feel for you (again, has no words)

..I just wish so much that the pain would leave....

Sorry for such a long post, but your posts touched me so much. Thank you.

TG

I sincerely hope that sharing your pain helps you to feel a bit better, more supported :heart: :heart: :hug: :support:

I am as impressed by y0u as I am by Jazzey.

amastie added 62 Minutes and 9 Seconds later...

************************************
Talking of courage, it recalls to me to comment on your change of avatar Jazzey. It kind of looks like a robot doll wearing headphones and carrying a player of some sort (I might be totally wrong of course <lol> but what struck me abou it was that it reminded me of a warrior marching forward, and I thought how appropriate for you!

 

[Jazzey]

Hi TG,

Thank you so much for sharing your story. It's the first thing I've read this morning and I'm so very touched by it. And I'm so sorry you've been through what you have, that any of us have been through this.

Amastie, thank you for always remaining a pillar for us and consistently showing us that tremendous heart of yours.

One common thread between many people who've been abused, in one way or another, is this immense inner strength, survival instinct, that I would probably put in the category of resilience. While we may think that we're weak because of certain patterns, revictimization, or even difficult periods where thoughts of suicide are entertained, we still keep marching on. And we keep working on ourselves to break patterns, to heal.

TG, you're a great example of this. Despite everything you've been through, you've found a loving and caring husband, you're raising a family, and you keep working on yourself for them as much as for you etc. In my books, you've broken a pattern.

I have some memories of certain events as a child. But when I tried to corroborate some of the sexual abuse, I was always told that it was a child's imagination at play. My siblings never entertained those conversations either, until just recently. As a young adult, and concerning men who were not related to me, I really believed that every young girl went through those experiences, that this was very normal for young women. I really didn't know that it wasn't supposed to be a part of growing up. Several adults in my life would confirm regularly that this is what happens when you're a pretty young woman - perfectly normal. I even had a theory that it would happen consistently every 2 years because that was the pattern in my life and would cringe when that second year came around. When I tried to share some of my experiences with others, I was told that I always had the 'best stories'. Which I interpreted as they're accusing me of lying. So I stopped talking about it, to anyone.

Some of my abuse was corroborated in August by a family member that I invited into my home. He spent a good part of the visit talking to me about our childhoods together. Except, he put it in amorous terms and corroborated some of my memories. Without going into details here this morning TG, I was re-victimized by him this summer. That's when I finally understood that nothing about these experiences were normal. I was still teetering up until that point. I'm 38 years old TG.

I still struggle with my newfound knowledge at times. But I'm grateful that I have it. Even if at some points I struggle with deep sadness, guilt and shame. That knowledge is worth some of those sentiments. It's that knowledge, I think, that will give me the strength to not allow old patterns to revisit my life. Some memories I have may never be corroborated. And I've now accepted that.

Because of my recent experience I'm getting more and more snapshots of my childhood (at least I think it's tied to this summer). I get images (almost like a coloured photo) and sometimes I get some sensations (including smells). This usually occurs just as I'm falling asleep, when I start to relax. Some of these images have to do with my childhood, while others have to deal with this summer. I can get out of bed 3 or 4 times to avoid them, only to see them again when I come back to bed.

And if I never corroborate these images from childhood, I will be ok. I've decided that I know the truth. Whether I know the details of that truth will not change who I am today and the details are irrelevant. When I get these snapshots, I accept them for what they are. I don't even try to analyze them. I've thought of writing some of them down but can't bring myself to do that just yet. And I'm not sure what emotions keep me from doing that other than possibly the fact that I'm well trained in not talking about it to anyone. That old pattern of 'if I don't acknowledge it, it never existed'. And what if there is no truth to them?

And to those who responded to this thread - a heartfelt thank you. I hadn't told a soul about my "recent snapshots". I still struggle with needing others to believe what I'm saying and I've become adept lately at not sharing the thoughts that I think will be disbelieved. So thanks again.

I think that's what makes us survivors. That word is pretty powerful when you think about it. That knowledge that we have requires more strength than even we can realize at times. :hug: :hug:

 

[texasgirl]

Thank you so much for the insights and kindnesses in your responses, Amastie and Jazzey. As always, it helps to know that we are not alone in our experiences which is a comfort that is both motivating and heartening.

Amastie, I wanted to clarify that, although I do dissociate, I don't have alters - I just go into a state where I am far away once the fear is too great. I admire you greatly for persevering with this kind of difficulty since it really is hard.

Jazzey,

I can completely relate to what you said about thinking that all of this was normal. I too stopped talking about it to anyone other than my therapist since I was either met with silence and open mouth, or like you, people remarked the story, presumably because they thought it was just that.

The other difficulty for me was trying to understand feelings of disgust when anyone would say that I was pretty, since that inevitably led me to believe that prettiness was associated somehow with all of this being my fault (i.e. if I weren't pretty then people would leave me alone). That's when I started self injury which went on for years but which I have through the grace of God not done for a very long time. But I still cringe when anyone, even my husband, says anything about my looking beautiful. It makes me feel both good and terrified at the same time, much like I must have felt as a child, trying to make sense of something that makes no sense.

With respect to being raped by my psychiatrist, Amastie, this was many years ago when I was an inpatient at a psych hospital. He was fired and lost his practice, but I chose not to press charges primarily because my mother "didn't want our names splashed all over the paper." I am still trying to come to terms with why that was more important than getting him off the streets and with my mother's denial of any pain that I suffered because of it (it was a violent incident).

In any case, I agree with you both that we are all survivors and should celebrate that. It is just so hard to keep that in focus sometimes.

Thank you again for your support and I wish you love and support as well.

:friends:

TG

 

[amastie]

Courage and wisdom. You have it in spades :friends:
:grouphug: :flowers:

I can't stay long at all. Very tired. It's 5.22am but I've had a subject in my head all day and want to address it if only briefly before going to bed.

Speak soon

 

[Jazzey]

The other difficulty for me was trying to understand feelings of disgust when anyone would say that I was pretty, since that inevitably led me to believe that prettiness was associated somehow with all of this being my fault (i.e. if I weren't pretty then people would leave me alone). That's when I started self injury which went on for years but which I have through the grace of God not done for a very long time. But I still cringe when anyone, even my husband, says anything about my looking beautiful. It makes me feel both good and terrified at the same time, much like I must have felt as a child, trying to make sense of something that makes no sense.

Compliments or too much attention (at times) don't necessarily disgust me. But my "flight" response takes over (panic) and I want to run as far away as possible. On good days, I just change the topic at hand. On bad days - 'mad dash'

Much support and love to you too TG and Amastie. :hug:

 

[Into The Light]

I still struggle with needing others to believe what I'm saying and I've become adept lately at not sharing the thoughts that I think will be disbelieved.

i believe you jazzey. :flowers:

 

[Halo]

I also believe you Jazzey :hug: :support:

 

[amastie]

...One common thread between many people who've been abused, in one way or another, is this immense inner strength, survival instinct, that I would probably put in the category of resilience. While we may think that we're weak because of certain patterns, revictimization, or even difficult periods where thoughts of suicide are entertained, we still keep marching on. And we keep working on ourselves to break patterns, to heal....

Yes

...TG, you're a great example of this. Despite everything you've been through, you've found a loving and caring husband, you're raising a family, and you keep working on yourself for them as much as for you etc. In my books, you've broken a pattern....

I agree.

....I really didn't know that it wasn't supposed to be a part of growing up. Several adults in my life would confirm regularly that this is what happens when you're a pretty young woman - perfectly normal. I even had a theory that it would happen consistently every 2 years because that was the pattern in my life and would cringe when that second year came around. When I tried to share some of my experiences with others, I was told that I always had the 'best stories'. Which I interpreted as they're accusing me of lying. So I stopped talking about it, to anyone....

:hug: :support:

...Some of my abuse was corroborated in August by a family member that I invited into my home. He spent a good part of the visit talking to me about our childhoods together. Except, he put it in amorous terms and corroborated some of my memories. Without going into details here this morning TG, I was re-victimized by him this summer. That's when I finally understood that nothing about these experiences were normal. I was still teetering up until that point. I'm 38 years old TG....

38, yes, but you got there! You got there! Wow!

..Except, he put it in amorous terms...

My God, that was how *he* needed to see it. He hasn't recognized the truth himself.

..Because of my recent experience I'm getting more and more snapshots of my childhood (at least I think it's tied to this summer). I get images (almost like a coloured photo) and sometimes I get some sensations (including smells). This usually occurs just as I'm falling asleep, when I start to relax. Some of these images have to do with my childhood, while others have to deal with this summer. I can get out of bed 3 or 4 times to avoid them, only to see them again when I come back to bed.
...

Yes, it's common that once you start to realize that the memories start to surface in line with what really happened. I think it's because you're no longer denying it inside yourself.

.... I've thought of writing some of them down but can't bring myself to do that just yet. And I'm not sure what emotions keep me from doing that other than possibly the fact that I'm well trained in not talking about it to anyone. ... That old pattern of 'if I don't acknowledge it, it never existed'. .. And what if there is no truth to them?
....

Yes, I understand

...And to those who responded to this thread - a heartfelt thank you. I hadn't told a soul about my "recent snapshots". I still struggle with needing others to believe what I'm saying and I've become adept lately at not sharing the thoughts that I think will be disbelieved. So thanks again....

I really feel that those of us who have responded here have done so very much with all our hearts and I would have you know that I believe you.

..I think that's what makes us survivors. That word is pretty powerful when you think about it. That knowledge that we have requires more strength than even we can realize at times....

Yes...

---------- Post added at 01:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 AM ----------

...As always, it helps to know that we are not alone in our experiences which is a comfort that is both motivating and heartening....

Yes

...Amastie, I wanted to clarify that, although I do dissociate, I don't have alters - I just go into a state where I am far away once the fear is too great. I admire you greatly for persevering with this kind of difficulty since it really is hard....

Thank you, tg.
Dissociation is on a spectrum, from ordinary absent-mindedness to forgetting or blocking out painful events, through your experience of going "into a state" where you are "far away once the fear is too great" through my experience of being "co-conscious" with "alters" who would like to take me over, to the most extreme where the alters *do* take over. But, in each of *our* cases, it is a flight from overwhelmingly painful circumstances. My dissociation may be further along the spectrum, but that doesn't speak to the extent of our pain. Each of us here deservers to be heard and respected for the truth of our experience,whether or not others acknowldge it or not.

...The other difficulty for me was trying to understand feelings of disgust when anyone would say that I was pretty, since that inevitably led me to believe that prettiness was associated somehow with all of this being my fault (i.e. if I weren't pretty then people would leave me alone). That's when I started self injury which went on for years but which I have through the grace of God not done for a very long time. But I still cringe when anyone, even my husband, says anything about my looking beautiful. It makes me feel both good and terrified at the same time, much like I must have felt as a child, trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. ...

Being pretty was never an issue for me. I became overweight at a very early age and could never be considered pretty, (I don't think I could have handled it if I was) but I certainly find it painful to receive a compliment. I've never self injured in the way that most people think of that, but I definitely do things - and am driven to do things by the "alters" - that hurt myself. The most obvious thing is to overeat.

By the way, it's wonderful tg that you have overcome the need to self injure. That's a *huge* thing to overcome. It would be like me overcoming the need to overeat. Maybe one day, I'll achieve what you have

...With respect to being raped by my psychiatrist, Amastie, this was many years ago when I was an inpatient at a psych hospital. He was fired and lost his practice, but I chose not to press charges primarily because my mother "didn't want our names splashed all over the paper." I am still trying to come to terms with why that was more important than getting him off the streets and with my mother's denial of any pain that I suffered because of it (it was a violent incident)...

My heart goes to you very much. I can only feel anger that you went through that. At least he lost his practice. I hope he's bricky's labourer now, earning basic wage carrying bricks from site to site in all weather.

..In any case, I agree with you both that we are all survivors and should celebrate that. It is just so hard to keep that in focus sometimes....

yes..

...I wish you love and support as well.TG

And me you :hug: :flowers:

amastie added 7 Minutes and 40 Seconds later...

Compliments or too much attention (at times) don't necessarily disgust me. But my "flight" response takes over (panic) and I want to run as far away as possible. On good days, I just change the topic at hand. On bad days - 'mad dash'...

Yes, I feel an overwhelming fear when complimented as well. I don't so much experience a need to flee (at least not physically - maybe you mean mentally as well). More than that, I actually feel pain, an almost physical pain that courses through me. That's why I ask close friends to pretend to put on their hands very soft mittens (or muffins) so that their compliment won't hurt me as much. I know it sounds silly, but it's true <lol>

 

[texasgirl]

Amastie, I wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for such a kind and very thoughtful post. You are truly insightful and are a real help. Take care!

:thankyou2:
:support:

TG

 

[forgetmenot]

so what is being said is if a therapist is helping draw back some of the memories they may not be accurate i don't get it the flash backs aren't real because a therapist is helping draw it out of pt

 

[Jazzey]

so what is being said is if a therapist is helping draw back some of the memories they may not be accurate i don't get it the flash backs aren't real because a therapist is helping draw it out of pt

No, not necessarily Mary. I think what the article is saying is to be careful about suggesting certain memories to patients.

My understanding (and I'm not trained in the medical field) is that a good therapist will assist you in recovering memories if they're there. Sometimes, those memories can occur spontaneously. The danger really lies in suggesting a certain line of thought or a certain memory to a patient who hasn't recovered it on their own. So the therapy has to be conducted in such a manner as to ensure that it's genuinely the patient's memory expressing itself, rather than an idea that has been suggested externally.

Again, that's my understanding of it....

 

[forgetmenot]

okay i get it it has to come from me not from thoughts he put in my head i have to tell him what i have been experiencing god it is going to be a very rough road here but if i want this child inside of me to go away i guess i have to start somewhere thanks jazzy

 

[Jazzey]

:support: Mary. You don't have to answer if you're not comfortable Mary...Do you have memories? (I have some). And you can lean on us...Anytime Mary.