Getting Over a Narcissistic Mother

[heatherly]

I think what you did, hugging your inner child is marvelous. I remember when I had a hysterectomy I asked for my ovaries, etc. and the doctor said no. I laid down on the bed and began to visualize my putting them in a bag, and then I just laid there and watched what was happeneing, like a dream. (I am good at visualization). I saw myself walk out into a field of wild mustard, I dug and hole and buried them. I was okay about it then.

I was in therapy for 13 years and got no where. I overheard one doctor tell another that I was a "hard case to crack." When I questioned him later he said, "Well, aren't you?" I began reading a metaphysical book that said, "It is your thoughts that depress you and not the other way around." I thought about, and realized that the drs. were trying to tell me that I was depressed; therefore I had negative thoughts. I sat down and looked at my thoughts; they were all depressing. Then I took just one of those thought and turned it into a positive affirmation and repeated silently all day long as I worked. By the end of the day my depression lifted and I knew I was onto something. I did it with every thought. I used a different technique when something bad happened to me, which is, I considered it a lesson to learn from.

So talking to your inner child is very helpful. I don't do that much anymore, and so one night it came out in a dream. My husband and I were going to my own funeral. When we reached the casket I saw myself in it and my skin was blackened as it mummified, and my eyes were hallow with only black pupils. Then from the casket I reached out my very think, long arms. As the normal person I backed away and said, "I am sorry that I didn't take better care of you." I woke up and realized that I had not been taking care of myself because I was still going to a book group where that friend of mine had been gossiping about me all over this small town. She is the one I wrote about here. I left the group and stayed from any group where the people had been listening to her. It has been some time, and even she has been nice towards me, but I know not to trust her. I went back to the groups because the other people got over it and so did I, thanks to an exfriend of hers who also had to listen to gossip. I learned my lesson here. If a friend wants to know what is wrong, and you haven't told her because you don't trust telling her, then listen to yourself. Don't tell her. Just quietly move away. My other friend did that with her, but she is gossiped about anyway. In fact, I almost didn't become her friend because of what this person was saying about her.

Then a wise old woman (10 years older than me) said, "You have to toughen up." I am taking her advice.

Yes, the mother or sisters putting each down so the others won't like them. I have been there. Your mother wants you all to herself, if she wants you at all, but either way she doesn't want you and your siseters to communicate. My mom always thought that we were talking about her when we got together. We were.

I was withdrawn and shy everytime I went home. Just reverted back to how I was as a child at home. I had no self-esteen in my younger days and when I was depressed. I couldn't even say, "I love you" to myself. After doing all the work on positive thinking one day I was able to do it and continued until I felt better about myself. I think if I had more self-esteem now I would not have let that friend's gossip hurt me, but I am not sure. But I certainly have a ton more than I did back in my youth. Your friends help you there as well.

I mean it was so easy for that friend, call her Kate, to make me think that it was my problem, not hers. I was again doubting myself, but I also knew that I was highly intuitive, and so when this other friend of hers told me how she felt about her, it validated me.

But my younger sister has always invaliding me as my mother had. She said in the latest letter she sent, which was over 12 years old, that I imagined that family members thought that I took the money at Mom's funeral. My other sister had said the same, but she finally admitted that she believed I had. I respect her for that because they were both gaslighting me. Still to this day my younger sister won't talk about it. And before we quit speaking, whenever I told her that I was having a problem with a friend (one I had dumped) she would make it my problem, tell, me that my perceptions were wrong. When I read her letter, 3 months or so ago, and read that very same thing, I realized that this was just another thing I didn't like about her. I had a therapist years ago who did the same thing to me, but when I left him he wrote me a long letter saying that I was right about him all along, that I was very perception and should always listen to my own intuition. It didn't override the damage he had done, so I have to continue to fight for the belief that I am perceptiive and intuitive to this day. I always need extra validation. This goes back to my mother and sisters.

I guess you can say that our childhood turned us into the people we are today and maybe we needed the experience. Yet, I wish I had had a Walton childhood. But I don't feel saddened by it. We can make our own Walton family. Ha.

I hate that we can't have our sisters not betray a confidence. My younger sister, when $40 was missing at the funeral, told my other sister and in front of me that I used to shoplift. Now that was a big betrayal. I had not shoplifted since my hippie/college days, and I had never stolen from family, friends, or people I worked for, and I told them this. Then she told my younger brother that I was a klepto. I was not a "klepto." Then they all began doing a number on me so I left, just coming back to a funeral I never wanted to be at in the first place, and did a bigger number on me. After that the sisters went into denial. And now my younger sister blames me for my brother not speaking to her, this is my oldest brother who stood up for me at the funeral. My younger brother admitted that my y. sister said I was a klepto, but now he denies it after all these years and said that he doesn't want to talk about it.

Yet, to this day I have not betrayed my sister by telling the family that she has had and still has affairs.

So my anger now is with my younger sister and half brother. I care little about him because I wasn't around him much. But I know that my older sister thinks I should make up with my sister and her niece. Me, I want to live in peace and not have toxic people in my life.

It is very hard, Sonya, to not confide in one's sister because it has become a habit hard to break. Even now I would like to find out from my older sister how my younger sister is, and to prove to her that she always believed that I took the money, that I have a letter to prove it, but I won't, and so I have to catch myself.

The best therapist that I have had, or two exactly, were female psychologists. I wish I had them now, or either one of them. Here, in this small town, we have one female psychologist who puts no energy into the session. I began seeing her when I was upset over losing this last friend and upset over the funeral. She had very little to say. It was a waste of my time. I tried another, one who was some type of counselor, but all she did is repeat back to me what I said. That was a waste of money, at least my insurance paid for the other. Out of all the doctors I saw it was a waste. That one sentence I read in the metaphysical book helped the most.

Now I find that Dr. Robert Burns has a book out on Mood Therapy, Feeling Good. I read it but my method was easier so I gave it away.
I even think Vincent Peale's book on The Power of Positive Thinking is good even though I am not a Christian.

My sister just doesn't think that I know anything, so she wouldn't listen to my telling her about positive thinking. She has always invalidated my views, just like my mom. And my mom blamed me for my older brother not liking her, and now she does the same.

 

[Sonya]

Hi Heatherly,

I'm glad you understand about my hugging my inner child. I wish I was better at visualization. I need to practice that.

How unprofessional of your doctor to tell his colleague that within earshot of you. I think it's true that our thoughts can depress us. I lived in my "poor me" story for many years. It got me nowhere.

I think that is a lot of my NM's problem. She can't stop talking about how badly she was treated by her mother, how she could have done something with her life if she'd have had good parents, etc. I guess that is how she justifies her horrible behavior. Like you, I have tried to leave it in the past and move forward with good thoughts.

Your dream was very insightful. I have dreams like that sometimes too. Mine usually have something to do with what is going on in my life at the present, but I have to think long and hard before I can figure out their meaning. I found a "dream dictionary" on line and it helps to interpret dream symbols. That must have been terrifying for you!

Intuition is a wonderful thing if we pay attention to it. I'm not a very good judge of character so I depend on little things like you wrote about to help me figure out if someone is genuine or not. Gossip is a very hurtful thing, especially when people you consider friends tell lies about you.

I have found another technique that is helpful when it comes to being sensitive and self-doubting. When someone hurts my feelings, I tell myself "I wish I wasn't so hard-hearted". The opposite is true. My husband tells me that I am too soft-hearted but I turn it around in my head and that has helped me tremendously.

When my sister hung up on me the other day, instead of bursting into tears (which was my first instinct), I just laid down the phone and told myself "I wish I could feel hurt by that, but I don't". I didn't shed a tear. She called right back and apologized and I think she was shocked that I wasn't bawling.

I used that to quit smoking too. When I felt like smoking a cigarette, I would say to myself "That's weird. I want a cigarette and I don't even smoke".

Your younger sister seems a lot like my NM. She accused me of stealing flowers from my niece's grave in front of the whole family. When she found out that the caretaker put them in his shed so he could mow, my NM didn't apologize and never mentioned it again.

I told my sister how hurt I was by this and she said she didn't remember mother saying that! It had only been a couple of months! I don't know if they intentionally discount your feelings or if they just don't think it's a big deal when someone humiliates you and accuses you of something you would NEVER do.

I haven't told my sister that my NM said that she wished my niece would die rather than be on drugs or that she now says that she's better off dead. There are a lot of things I could tell her that my NM has said but she would just deny it and my sister would probably believe the NM, not me.

My sister wants me to make up with my mother and gets mad at me for not calling her. In the same conversation, she will tell me that talking to mother on the phone makes her physically ill and it takes her days to shake the bad feelings that she's left with.

I understand how difficult it is not to confide in your own siblings. I miss the relationship that we used to have, where our NM was the enemy (which she was) and we talked about how we were going to move a thousand miles away from her when we grew up.

I laughed out loud about how your mother thought you and your sister were talking about her and you were! Same here, except my sister now has a mental illness, and she tells our mother everything we say. That's why I can't share a lot with her. She tells me "somehow mother always gets me to tell her everything".

I tried therapy once. I was 21, and went because of no self-confidence and being incredibly shy. Just like you, I reverted to a 12-year-old when I was around my Mother.

I didn't know how therapy was supposed to work. She asked me why I was there and I told her and then she sat and stared at me and said "do you think you're pretty?" I said "my husband says I am but I don't know". We sat in silence for the next 30 minutes! She just stared at me! I never went back. She absolutely freaked me out. I can sit in silence for free. Why should I pay for that?

Thanks for suggesting the books. I also read about one called "When will I be good enough?". Have you read that one? I am going to the bookstore this weekend.

One more thing. Can you explain "gaslighting"? I have read about it, but I don't really know what it means.

We can't make our sisters listen to us. I know the frustration. At least we are helping ourselves the best way we know how. That's all we can do.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Hi Sonya,

I have a few links about gaslighting... It's based on a movie/story that you can read a bit more about on this link

Gaslight (1944 film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gaslight is a 1944 mystery-thriller film adapted from Patrick Hamilton's play, Gas Light, performed as Angel Street on Broadway in 1941. It was the second version to be filmed; the first, released in the United Kingdom, had been made a mere four years earlier. This 1944 version of the story was directed by George Cukor and starred Ingrid Bergman, Charles Boyer, Joseph Cotten, and 18-year-old Angela Lansbury in her screen debut. It had a larger scale and budget and lends a different feel to the material than the earlier film." In the movie, the husband does little things to start to cause his wife to doubt her sanity... Just little things... But many many little things...

What is Gaslighting?
Lorne Cansler
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://lorne-cansler.suite101.com/gaslighting-a194877&h=5AQHgut1q

The Sad Art of Gaslighting
Laurie Kendrick
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=htt...7/03/the-sad-art-of-gaslighting/&h=PAQFWAxZS0

Are you the Victim of Gaslighting?
Sarah Treleaven

 

[heatherly]

hi, Sonya, i love talking with you.

your technique is great. and it works for you. i have never heard of it used that way.

some people are better at visualization than others. when i was 7 i used to lie in bed, close my eyes and think up a dress, and I would see a colored dress and style and then it would be gone and another would appear. gee, if it had stayed in my mind I could have been a dress designer. then i would day dream and make up stories until I was 29 or so. But I could see what I was daydreaming about. I think I read a book about visualizing, how you would see (visualize) yourself on a beach or elsewhere and just watch what happens. I don't do that much anymore. See if this website helps: How To Visualize Mental Images I have not read it.

The doctor didn't know that I was in earshot. I fired him soon after for other reasons.

I seldom have dreams that are very meaningful. This dream was powerful. I am glad that it woke me up and that I remembered it. I felt so bad for me in the coffin. I remember her reaching out to me, and my saying, I am sorry I didn't take better care of you." I hope it stays with me forever.

Gaslighting is when someone tries to make you think you are crazy. There was an old movie called Gaslight. You can get it on netflix. So my sisters were denying that they believed I took the money and telling me it was all in my head, making out like I was crazy, when in fact they both believed I had. And they were both denying what they had said to me at the funeral. Finally, one admitted it and I am grateful for her honesty, and as a result, we are close now.

Good you didn't go back to the therapist. "Do you think that you are pretty?" What kind of question is that?

Hope your sister doesn't make you feel guilty enough to make up with your mom. Ugh. My older sister was doing that with me for a while, but she gave up. It is easy to make me feel guilty, and I hate it. My brother and his wife helped me alot. His wife gives classes in, hmm, forgot what it is called, but she sent me a book titled, crucial conversations and used it in her class. i tried to read it but couldn't relate to the way it was written. She was better than any therapist I saw. Told me to stick to my guns, etc.

Thanks for the book suggestion. Someone suggested the book, People of the Lie. I ordered it and am waiting for it to come in the mail. It is about narcissism. Not sure if it is good. I read one review that said that the author says that the people are evil, and she can't believe in the concept of evil. I have a hard time with believing that too and just think that people are sick, etc. But I will see what it has to say. I bought a few other books, but basically, I have not found a good book on narcissism. I think the website, Narcissists Suck is the best website. Narcissists Suck

I am very intuitive but the problem I have is trusting it. I often don't listen, and then I find that I really, really should have. Such as the friend who did me in here in this small town. When I first saw her in public, I knew we had a lot in common, and so I tried to make friends and did. One of the first things she said to me was, "I have never had a close friend before..." She is 70 years old and never had a close friend. And she kept her shades closed night and day because she didn't want people looking in her window, as if they would. She kept warning me of the dangers of doing things, like don't walk your dog in the neighborshoods, don't do this and that. She had a lot of fears. I knew what all this meant; I studied psychology. But we had other things in common and I was new here and needed a friend. She was good at gaslighting in the end, denied saying things to me and made out that it was my problem, then said I was mean to her, and then told a lot of people I know in town that I was mean.

Here is something else my family does. If you are debating an issue, and they don't like what you say, they attack you. This is called, ad hominem. Abusive ad hominem (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to attack his claim or invalidate his argument.

My mother and older sister does this to me. I learned the word recently when my older sister did it to me. Don't know how I found it online, and I can't even pronounce it. Ha.

Here is the best definition of gaslighting:

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory and perception. It may simply be the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, or it could be the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.

That was from good ole wikipedia. And more:

The term "gaslighting" comes from the play Gas Light and its film adaptations. In those works a man uses a variety of tricks to convince his wife that she is crazy, so that she won't be believed when she reports strange things that are genuinely occurring, including the dimming of the gas lights in the house (which happens when her husband turns on the normally unused gas lamps in the attic to conduct clandestine activities there). The term is now also used in clinical and research literature.^[

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Hi jolly,

while you were putting that post up I was writing. Great links.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

How about that, hey Heatherly? lol

I accidentally left off one of the links, so here it is...

Are you the Victim of Gaslighting?
by Sarah Treleaven
http://www.dailystrength.org/groups/narcissist-victims-syndrome-survivors/discussions/messages/9148495

And I have this one, too... I thought I included it, but I must have not copied the entire thing like I thought so didn't paste it... 8P

Gaslighting as a Manipulation Tactic: What It Is, Who Does It, And Why
Psychology, Philosophy & Real Life: Dr George Simon, PhD
http://counsellingresource.com/features/2011/11/08/gaslighting/

 

[Sonya]

Hi Heatherly,

I love talking to you too. You make me laugh and almost cry. Our lives have a lot in common and it is so hard to find people who have N's in their lives but are in denial or just don't want to talk about it.

You know, it takes a lot of work to analyze what was and is wrong with our family members and how we can help ourselves rise above it. I sometimes wonder if that isn't why people just stay "stuck" in the way things are. It sure would be a whole lot easier, wouldn't it? You and I want to do the work and find out what was behind our miserable childhoods and the miserable adults we still have to tolerate sometimes.

I am going to visit the website about visualization. It is fascinating to me. You could have been a designer or an artist. I wonder if that is how creative people get a lot of their ideas? I have never been very creative. I was always concentrating on the physical work I had to do and on my feelings - wondering who would make me cry next. Glad I'm not like that anymore.

I now know a lot more about gaslighting. I read up on the movie and it seems very familiar to me. I'm certain I've never seen it, but my NM loved watching movies like that. I guess she was looking for ideas (like she needed any more).

My sister won't make me feel guilty enough to talk to my mom, but she did trick me about a year ago. My NM takes sinus medicine because it makes her heart do weird things. She does this when she wants attention.

She did it about a year ago and told my dad to take her to the hospital. My dad, who never, ever calls me, called all of us kids to tell us that the NM had been admitted to the hospital. I didn't go but the other 3 did. My sister called me and asked if I was going and I told her "no".

She said that when she got to the hospital, she would call me from the pay phone and tell me if there was anything really wrong with the mother. A few hours later, she called. She didn't call from a pay phone, she called from my NM's hospital room, and then said "do you want to talk to Mother?". She then handed the phone to my mother who tried to sound pitiful and told me about her "heart condition".

Her "heart condition" is self-inflicted and I know it. She has told me that sinus meds do that to her. She knows not to take them. I talked to her for a few minutes and hung up. They released her about an hour later. I will know better next time. I can't trust my sister.

My NM's little brother and his wife know exactly how she is. They moved far away from here to get away from her and the rest of the crazy family. His wife (my aunt) calls me often and tells me that it is better to stay no contact with the NM. They have known her since she was a girl and they know that she is an N and is capable of anything.

They were around when my sister and I were just toddlers and they said that she ignored us and left us with anyone who would agree to watch us. My Grandma told me that my NM slapped my face when I was 2-days-old.

Let me know what you think about the book, People of the Lie, okay? I have got to get the movie "Gaslight". I am going to try to find it.

When someone says they've never had a close friend before, it's a pretty bad sign, huh? I try so hard to see the good in people but some people just don't have a lot to offer in the way of friendship. My NM only has young friends - in their 40's. She's 72. I have never known my Dad to have a friend but his family thinks he is just wonderful.

He is always pleasant and helpful around his family (brothers, sisters, etc.), but at home with us kids and the NM, he was always quiet and/or mad, and stayed at work from 7AM until about 9PM. I think it was just to get away from the crazy NM.

I wonder why your friend had so many fears? That's funny about closing her shades. Did she think people were lining up to look in her window? Ha! My NM used to ask me if I worried about things. I told her I didn't because he doesn't do any good. She would say "you need to worry."

I guess misery loves company. Your friend wanted you to have her same fears for some reason it seems.

My NM is a pro at ad hominem (I can't pronounce it either), without even knowing. I have never heard of it but that is certainly something that she does, especially to my dad. She used to steal money from his wallet and when he accused her, she would be furious and ask how he could accuse her! She would tell him that his memory was gone and he didn't even know how much money he had.

That is sort of like gaslighting too, isn't it? Now she says that when she steals his money, he is too afraid of her to say anything, which I'm sure he is because she will hit him. He was taught to never hit women, so he just stands there, blocking her fists with his arms. We got to see a lot that growing up.

Anytime she was caught doing something she shouldn't, like staying out at bars, she would get mad and everyone, including my dad, left her alone.

Thank you for a lot of useful information. I've learned a lot in the past few days.

Take Care,

Sonya

 

[heatherly]

Hi Sonja,

Sorry, I didn't see that you had posted to this, and it has been awhile. Don't know how that happened.

We do have a lot in common. Maybe it is that way with most who have narcissism in their family. Not sure.

I am glad that your sister doesn't make you feel guilty. I seem to have too much guilt. I have always been one for making up with people who have hurt me and never apologized, all out of guilt over worrying about how they feel, that they may feel badly, but usually they don't. I called my mother out of guilt up to the week she died. I am not sorry for doing it now, because I would often call and then get busy with other things so I would forget what she said to me. Wish I could forget her funeral.

I hated the book, People of the Lie. I finished it thought. I felt that he was calling people evil who were not evil. He said that narcissists were evil and he gave a few examples that I thought were lame. One that I remember really well was when a kid's brother shot himself, and the parents didn't know how to help him. Then later on the parents gave him the gun that his brother killed himself with to him. The author thought the parents were evil and asked why, and the parents said something like we didn't have money for a gun and thought he would like a gun, etc. Well, I thought the parents were honest, and actually stupid and mentally challenged to some degree. He felt that they were evil. Sick, yes. Faulthy thinking, yes. Evil. I don't think so. There were 4 or so other cases, but I didn't consider any of the people he interviewed to be evil. And i don't think narcissists are evil. I have yet to come to terms with the word "evil" anyway, and rather think that some people are sick and some are very good. Then I read that neuroscientists think now that it is a brain malfunction that some people have.

So I decided to read Re-examining Hitler, and I may or may not get through the 600 page book, but it seems like no one can really come to terms with the term "evil" or even why Hitler did what he did. But my latest research is to try to understand evil, but I may give up since no one understands it. I have a fear that reading books on evil might disturb my mind, give me nightmares like scary movies did when I was a child, even after seeing Silence of the Lambs. I won't watch anything like that again. Ha.

On a lighter note, did you visit the visualization website?

I think men are able to walk away from abusive parents easier than women. My own brother did easily. I do wish that I had limited my visits to the telephone and had not gone to see her.

That is horrible that your parents ignored you and left you with anyone. My dad beat us as kids as he did my mother. Won't go into that though. My oldest sister took after him. I can remember her abusing my little sister. Not sure about myself.

My mom worked after the divorce. I was 8. What I loved is that I was on my own. I would leave the house and take my dog to the river or hills or I would walk all over town checking things out. It was a small town. I read a book that reminded me of my life. Loved the book. The Woman Who Was Not All There by Paula Sharp. My mother wasn't all there because she was on melaril. She didn't care what we did or where we went. Basically, she worked during the day. My older sister quit school to take care of us.

That friend of mine had some pretty good qualities, but after her divorce she became more controlling of me, wanted me to do my yard her way, etc. And she got mean. Feel bad for her. We are on friendly terms, but I will always be careful what I say around her since she gossips. Her friend who she put down to me is my friend now, and not hers, and she is wonderful. Normal as well, but is moving in two weeks.

I don't think my dad had friends either. But he was very charming. Had one wife after another. One affair after another, and people at his work loved him. I watched him when I in my 30s and he came to visit. We would walk into a store, and before we left he knew all about the clerk, and the clerk loved him. No one knew that he beat my mother.

Yes, that was gaslighting when your mom told your dad that his memory was gone. So your mom was the physically abusive one. My father never abused us verbally that I know of. My mom did. But my mom never hit us because she said that we were beaten enough.

Sounds like you dad did stay at work so he didn't have to come home. It was my dad who stayed at bars and even owned one. Then my step-dad stayed at bars.

Well, I hope you are still around and get this post. I thought I had subscribed to it and when I didn't hear anything I thought no one posted. I did get something in the mail on narcissism and posted. Must be another thread.

 

[MWCT]

Both Sonja and Heatherly,

I had not yet heard the terms gaslighting and ad hominem, but they are very helpful to understand my NMIL. We have not talked to her now in going on 3 weeks because she left my birthday party early without even a goodbye and then turned around and said it was because we were rude to her! I never knew there was a term for what she does to us.....and it has been (especially for me) - part guilt and more anger.....then her "m.o" is that she has her new boyfriend send us horrible emails like "I too have experienced your fury....and you are passing that to your kids." He will also throw a religious reference in for good measure.

She herself said we need our distance - and that is exactly what we are giving her.....and some peace and quiet for us....because it has gotten to be weekly chaos of one thing or another.

My husband and I both feel bad, but we are standing firm this time - for our sanity and our kids.

But I wanted to thank everyone here for all the insight and know we are doing the right thing for no contact with her for a long while!

 

[heatherly]

mwct, i am glad that this thread is helping you.

 

[Sonya]

Hi Heatherly! I have missed talking to you!

Guilt is a difficult thing to get past. I used to put others feelings before my own. We are probably both too sensitive, but I think that makes us more caring and compassionate people.

Thanks for the warning about the book. I won't bother with it. I think evil is a very difficult thing to define. Everyone probably has their own definition.

I often wonder if people whom I consider evil even see themselves as bad, let alone evil. Like with my NM, whom I have always considered "evil" because she tortured people and animals and laughed about it. She is a very intelligent woman and she knows better, but considers this type of thing "fun". But she has to have a screw loose somewhere, so I imagine that she considers herself normal.

I could never read a book about Hitler. I could never watch any tv programs about him or the holocaust. It is just too devastating for me. I have nightmares if I watch scary movies too. I watched Silence of the Lambs and the scariest part for me was the girl in the cellar. I was so happy when she and the dog got out. There is something about being confined that truly frightens me. My NM locks her animals in the closet for hours if she gets mad at them. I sometimes wonder if she didn't do that to us kids too.

I did visit the visualization website. Very interesting. I have been practicing the techniques but I'm still not very good at it.

My brother walked away from our NM first. I think you are right about it being easier for men. My brother said he felt like he had no parents. We just thought it was normal as I'm sure you did as well. I didn't find out that most kids don't get screamed at and hit until I spent the night with my aunt and uncle. They tried to have kids for 10 years and then they had two right together. He was a preacher and she was a sweetheart. I treasure the time that I spent with them because they were probably the most "normal" family I have ever known.

Please don't regret seeing your mother as often as you did. I waited way too long before I stopped contact but I try not to beat myself up about it. We broke free and that is all that matters.

Wow, you were an independent 8-year-old! I'm glad you had some time to do your own thing as a child. It sounds like a beautiful place where you grew up.

What is melaril? Is it a medicine? I hope your older sister was a good caretaker. It is tough to have to grow up so fast and not really have a childhood. It is also tough being the child who has only a sibling to care for them.

We both could have ended up in foster care. Not sure if that would have been better or worse. My cousin was in foster care and she said that every family she lived with (she was in Montana) just wanted a ranch hand and they made the kids work 12 hours a day on the ranch.

I have heard of that book, "The Woman Who Was Not There". I would like to read it. I think I will be getting a Kindle soon and I have a list of books that I want to get.

I understand about your friend. You have to be careful around some people because they will tell everything they know and make up what they don't! I study people so much more than I used to because of learning about different mental illnesses. I wanted to know more, but it makes me question everyone, even myself.

I ask myself the questions you told me about - do I enjoy being around them, do we share interests, etc. I have found that so far, the good outweighs the bad in most of my friends so I will give them the benefit of the doubt, unless they give me reason to do otherwise.

I try not to share too much about my childhood with my friends because it is painful and if it ever got back to my mother, she would start a war with me. She was always talking about what a good mother she was and how she raised 5 kids and cleaned and cooked, etc. She didn't do any of that but in her head, I guess that's how she thinks it was.

Your Dad sounds a lot like my mother. She could charm a snake! She was a beautiful woman who looked a bit like Elizabeth Taylor. She would leave with some guy for days or weeks and us kids would be shuffled off to a relative while my dad played detective and tried to find her. So crazy!

Amazing how she and your Dad could be so adored by those who didn't know them so well, isn't it? It is terrible that he was so mean to you and your mother. I just can't imagine having an abusive father. Mine was an enabler, but he never hit us. When we got old enough, my sister fought back with my mother and I was so happy. She didn't offer to hit us once we got bigger than her so it wasn't as scary as a man who could really do damage. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Did you ever live with a step-mom or step-dad? My dad was really my step-dad, but the only dad I ever knew. I think he could have been a very decent person if he had married someone who wasn't so mean to him.

It was so good to hear from you. Take care of yourself, okay?

Sonya

---------- Post Merged at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:11 PM ----------

Hi MWCT,

Heatherly knows a lot more about the terms than I do. I have been reading up on them, though.

My mother once left a birthday party for her granddaughter because no one took a picture of HER! She called us rude too.

I would honor her request for a long time and give her the distance she is asking for. If you feel much better afterwards, stay away. That's what I did. It has been more than a year since I have seen or spoken to her and my husband and I are both much happier for it.

Good luck to you!

Sonya

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Ah! I see what you mean:

Argumentum Ad Hominem

 

[heatherly]

I had a long letter going but it got deleted by accident. So I am doing this on Microsoft and putting my words in blue.

I often wonder if people whom I consider evil even see themselves as bad, let alone evil. Like with my NM, whom I have always considered "evil"because she tortured people and animals and laughed about it. She is a very intelligent woman and she knows better, but considers this type of thing"fun". But she has to have a screw loose somewhere, so I imagine that she considers herself normal

.

I don’t know if they consider themselves evil either. My dad tortured animals. After my mom left him I had a pretend step-sister for a while who said that {triggering details deleted}

Your mom sounds sadistic too. I don’t know what they think about themselves. My older sister and her daughter consider their behavior normal.

My NM locks her animals in the closet for hours if she gets mad at them. I sometimes wonder if she didn't do that to us kids too.

How horrible. My ex-husband threw out cat in the shower once, and so I gave the cat away. I would have left him except I didn’t know how to support myself at the time. He was only verbally abusive to me.

I did visit the visualization website. Very interesting. I have been practicing the techniques but I'm still not very good at it.

Takes time.

My brother walked away from our NM first. I think you are right about it being easier for men. My brother said he felt like he had no parents. We just thought it was normal as I'm sure you did as well. I didn't find out that most kids don't get screamed at and hit until I spent the night with my aunt and uncle.They tried to have kids for 10 years and then they had two right together. He was a preacher and she was a sweetheart. I treasure the time that I spent with them because they were probably the most "normal" family I have ever known.

I don’t recall when I realized that my family life wasn’t normal. I remember taking child psychology in college, it was the only course left and in your first year you don’t get good pickings. But as I read the how parents treat unwanted children I sat and cried because it fit my mother to a tee.

Please don't regret seeing your mother as often as you did. I waited way too long before I stopped contact but I try not to beat myself up about it. We broke free and that is all that matters.

I regret that I remember the bad things she said to me.

Wow, you were an independent 8-year-old! I'm glad you had some time to do your own thing as a child. It sounds like a beautiful place where you grew up.

It is still a nice little town but has grown.

What is Melaril? Is it a medicine? I hope your older sister was a good caretaker. It is tough to have to grow up so fast and not really have a childhood. It is also tough being the child who has only a sibling to care for them.

Melaril was a tranquilizer. My sister was more like my dad. She was mean and could hit hard. I remember her knocking my little sister upside the head at the kitchen table, and her head hit the wall.

One of the last times I saw my mom she said, “I know that I am mean, but it is because your father beat me.” The next day it was, “I know that I am mean but it is because of the Melaril.” Before she said this I used to think that she didn’t know what she was doing.

We both could have ended up in foster care. Not sure if that would have been better or worse. My cousin was in foster care and she said that every family she lived with (she was in Montana) just wanted a ranch hand and they made the kids work 12 hours a day on the ranch.

I am glad that my mom left my dad when I was 8. I liked my childhood after that because she would never hit us, and she didn’t seem so mean then. I really loved her back then. I don’t know what happened to her. I remember when I met the guy I was going to marry when I was in high school, and she didn’t like my having a boyfriend, and that is when things changed for us. She did the same with my younger sister’s first husband. Then she put down my current husband.

I have heard of that book, "The Woman Who Was Not There". I would like to read it. I think I will be getting a Kindle soon and I have a list of books that I want to get.

It isn’t on kindle. The cheapest price is on Abe.com, and you can get it for a total of $3.63 or so, and that includes the shipping. Amazon has it for a penny but the shipping is more.

She was always talking about what a good mother she was and how she raised 5kids and cleaned and cooked, etc. She didn't do any of that but in her head; I guess that's how she thinks it was.

My mother used to say, “You kids think I was a bad mother.” Well, we did. Then she would say, “People love your step-dad, but they think I am mean.”

Your Dad sounds a lot like my mother. She could charm a snake! She was a beautiful woman who looked a bit like Elizabeth Taylor. She would leave with some guy for days or weeks and us kids would be shuffled off to a relative while my dad played detective and tried to find her. So crazy!

My dad was handsome in his youth, but as he grew older he looked like Jackie Gleason. I always hated the Honeymooners because Gleason sounded like my dad. “Wham, right in the kisser.” And he was always screaming like my dad.

When we got old enough, my sister fought back with my mother and I was so happy. She didn't offer to hit us once we got bigger than her so it wasn't as scary as a man who could really do damage. I'm so sorry that happened to you

.

I am sorry that you had to live that life too. My brother stood up to my dad when he was older, but he couldn’t do much as he was only 14 when Mom left. He and my older sister used to fight, mainly her being like dad, and his holding her down once and then running out the door. He was not abusive.

Did you ever live with a step-mom or step-dad? My dad was really my step-dad,but the only dad I ever knew. I think he could have been a very decent person if he had married someone who wasn't so mean to him.

My step-dad was okay, but he stood up for my mom, and I guess that was natural since he was never around when she was verbally abusive.

---------- Post Merged at 09:52 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:42 AM ----------

Both Sonja and Heatherly,

I had not yet heard the terms gaslighting and ad hominem

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory and perception

So what happens is you tell someone that they said such and such, and they deny it and say that you are making it up, you are crazy or give you another excuse.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it

So when I would get into a political discussion with a family member and they didn't agree with me, instead of coming up with proof that I am wrong, they attack my character as either being naive, dumb or whatever

 

[Darkside]

I agree the term "narcissistic" gets thrown around carelessly sometimes, but the line between selfishness or self-centeredness, is obscured and the injury to children by either can be devastating.

My sister bears the scars of the daughter. She is an under-achiever and my mother despises her. My mother constantly blames her father (whom she also hates) for ruining my sister but the truth is my mother and father injured her far worse. My mother actively competed with my sister and sometimes tried to undermine her if she presented too much competition. Now she hates her because she didn't turn out like my mother expected - she didn't turn into a carbon copy of my mother and she can't accept her and love her. She makes a show of it, but it is an act. My sister gave up and doesn't even try anymore which makes my mother hate her all the more.

My older brother committed suicide in 1997 and as the only living son I bear scars as well. My mother is now 92 and in the middle stages of Alzheimers. She has moved to assisted living which makes it easier to avoid her, but every contact is a trial. Until the dementia struck my mother was able to stay within herself. She was selfish, but not abusive. The disease has stripped away the veil and now she has become destructive and abusive again. I handle all her affairs and she has become quite paranoid and delusional. People are stealing from her, confabulation (false memories) and in some cases she just lies. The lying and denying have always been there, but they were not as noticeable when her memory was intact. Now they appear flagrant.

For the past year I've girded myself before I saw her by telling myself not to be surprised by anything she says or does. Unfortunately, I am continually surprised by the absurd things she says and does - and by her verbal attacks. Last week I had enough and put my foot down. I was angry but did not lose control. She hung up the phone on me and I am not going to call her back. She wants her hair dryer so she can roll her hair so I am going to take it to her today, but 5 minutes is about all I can stand. I'll find a way to excuse myself even if I have to be rude.

My relationships with women have been terrible. When I was in my early 20s I lived with someone for almost 2 years. After about a year I started physically abusing her - regularly. I put more than a few bruises on her body. Shrink says it was anger at my mother that was misdirected. Maybe. It might be a little of my own narcissism - maybe more than a little. After that, I never physically struck a woman, but I am divorced twice. I probably put my mother's mask on the face of most women and then sabotage the relationship. Either that or I unconsciously choose women who are like my mother so I can continue the fight. What I don't fully understand is what the fight is all about.

I was abused as a child so it might that I am fighting abuse in these relationships whether it is there or not. I've spent the better part of 10 years trying to figure that out, but I know that at least some of it is due to the injuries I suffered as the child of a narcissistic mother and the sibling of an abusive brother and sister. My father didn't know what to do so he did nothing. He went insane at the end of his life.

 

[betterorworse]

I want to say something to you but this subject is so much part of my own family history that I want to cry instead. For both of us.

My mother died at 91 a few years ago and it was a relief. In spite of breaking all contact with her in 1998, she pursued me through my siblings for another 10 years, making false accusations and continuing the character assasination. She was a major depression trigger for me, I don't think I will ever completely get over what she did.

Are you sure you should continue seeing your mother? If it is this hurtful? She has support now for her care and needs. You matter more.

 

[Darkside]

I want to say something to you but this subject is so much part of my own family history that I want to cry instead. For both of us.

My mother died at 91 a few years ago and it was a relief. In spite of breaking all contact with her in 1998, she pursued me through my siblings for another 10 years, making false accusations and continuing the character assasination. She was a major depression trigger for me, I don't think I will ever completely get over what she did.

Are you sure you should continue seeing your mother? If it is this hurtful? She has support now for her care and needs. You matter more.

Probably not ... at least I should probably see her as little as possible which I am trying to do.

Today I went by there and took her the hair dryer. I only got a peek at her because she was taking nap, but when she came to the door of her apartment I handed her the dryer and then made an excuse and left.

To tell you the truth, I can't escape the idea that this might be all me. I know taking responsibility for everything whether it is my fault or not is part of my problem, but I read excerpts today from a book about male narcissists and all afternoon I've wondered, "what if it really is me?" What if I am the sick one? The way I've treated women all my life and my own lying treacherous behavior all seem like concrete proof. Plus, I have a very difficult time with intimacy and both my second wife and my last girlfriend accused me of narcissism. As hard as it is to admit it I do seem to dislike women and do what is called "splitting." They are are either saints or sluts. For example - my mother. I wonder if my attitude and feelings toward her changed because she got sick with dementia and is no longer my narcissistic supply. Now I spend a lot of time pathologizing her.

As long as I've been in therapy you would think one of the shrinks would have said something and pointed out my behavior, but they have not. Yet approval seeking behavior is very much like seeking narcissistic supply.

I have to accept that this is a real possibility. What to do with the information is another thing altogether - there's no cure for narcissism.

 

[betterorworse]

Your story is very close to what my younger brother (about your age) did for my mother till the end. He was her golden boy, so his abuse was disguised compared to the rest of us. They fed each other's egos for 50 years. I don't know how my brother is now. He completely accepted all my mother's delusional actions and opinions about his siblings, so he has no interest in renewing contact.

In my experience a true narcissist does not ever wonder if they are mentally ill. They consider themselves above and better than everyone. People are there to serve their purposes, they have absolutely no empathy for anyone but themselves and NEVER have regrets or apologize. If you point out something they may have done wrong, they respond by saying it never happened and you probably dreamed it....

I was also very confused for a long time. Doubted my own perceptions, had no confidence in my judgment. The man I am involved with changed all that 18 years ago. He was a great sounding board and I believe in and trusted his judgment. I finally saw the truth about my mother, and it was really painful.

I suggest you ask your therapist what he/she thinks? if you know someone else you trust, ask. It can be difficult to navigate such chaos in your like by yourself with off the cuff remarks other people make for whatever reason, when these keep resonating in your mind.

 

[Darkside]

Sorry to hear about your brother. I used to buy into my mother's delusions about other family members, but in the last few years I've realized they are just in her head. I long for a family that is close, in each others corner so to speak, but we are not and never have been. My brother was the golden child and my sister is the scapegoat. He couldn't do anything wrong and she can't do anything right. My family is nothing but a bunch of lies that are just now coming unraveled.

I wonder sometimes how I could escape this without carrying the scars if not the illness.

I do second guess myself -- almost all the time. Occasionally I feel confident about my decisions and opinions, but I can be easily "knocked off my horse."

---------- Post Merged at 08:13 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:11 PM ----------

I want to add that you are very fortunate to find someone who understands you, but it also means you have been able to trust someone, and that's a big deal. I've never been able to do that.

 

[Darkside]

I don't really know if my mother is narcissistic or just self-centered. It's hard to tell sometimes. But it seems like every conversation with her turns into a battle of some sort and I come away feeling bad. Her powers of denial are very strong even at 92 and she refuses to accept anything she finds unpleasant - either facts or unpleasant emotions either from herself or others. She always criticizes any display of emotion - even makes fun of it. She ridiculed my cousin's children for crying at their father's funeral.

She's been seeing a lady geriatric psychiatrist for about 6 months and it is clear my mother dislikes her. It is harder to tell, but I don't think the psychiatrist likes my mother very much because they lock horns almost every visit. Still, this doctor brought my mother back from the brink of an episode of delirium last winter. She diagnosed my mother with dementia and she takes Aricept, Prozac and Remeron daily. If she has dementia it is early and mild.

But here's what I really want to say. Seeing people as they really are can be eye opening and revelatory. But it is the second half of the battle because seeing ourselves as we really are is even more crucial. We can't change other people - only ourselves. So I have to remind myself that at least part of the "bad" I sometimes see in others (including my mother) might be true, but any conflict I feel is because what I see in others may also be true of myself. In other words, the things I dislike in others may very well be a projection of parts of myself I dislike and have disowned. This is a very common defense mechanism that even average people use and it is our primary job to break down our own defense mechanisms so we can see ourselves clearly. In the end, we cannot see others clearly until we have learned to see ourselves without any illusions.

That is why I think Dr. Baxter (and all other therapists that I have known that were worth a hoot) caution us about diagnosing other people after reading an internet board. We might be right, but it may also be some sort of internal drama we are playing out on other people. Leave the diagnosis to psychiatrists and psychologists.

Finally, as jellybean said so eloquently, there is a very important distinction between "narcissistic behaviors" which can cause us all to behave badly sometimes and the actual personality disorder. As best I can tell the disorder is a lifetime pattern that displays itself over long periods of time and in all facets of life and not just occasionally.

 

[betterorworse]

My mother's diagnosis was from one of my psychiatrist. In fact this was after my mother threatened to disown me if I did not seek immediate therapy because "I wanted to kill her". I had no such though or intention, but being 25 at the time and still not quite sure about my own sanity, I felt maybe she was right and I should check this out.

My mother found out that her blackmail worked and phoned my doctor. He confirmed he was seeing me. I gave him hell for that, because he played right into her mind games. So, therapy lasted 9 months, enough time to build my self-confidence back and move on. My mother eventually asked me what the therapist said about her, I repeated his conclusion that she needed to see him more than I did....

Part of my trust in men is due to my good relationship with my dad. He dotted on me when I was a kid. Out of four children, my older brother and younger sister had the worst of it because no one was in THEIR corner. Older brother was diagnosed with schizophrenia in his late twenties. Has survived somehow. Sister also suffers from Major Depression and taken the low achiever role. She is a very angry and manipulative person. Both my brother and sister have continued to try and seek approval from our parents in their adult years and it breaks my heart to see them hurt over and over again.

I'm not a saint. I have also been called a narcissicist. I have a bad temper. I can be obnoxious and arrogant. Sometimes I'm a walking paradox of feeling superior yet thinking I'm a complete failure. I don't think it's possible to erase the scars and the harm completely, no matter how much you rage and wish you could. I do have trust issues with older women, often paranoid at their motives and behavior. It's taken a long long time for me to gain insight into myself and keep a lid on my more destructive side most of the time.

You are right, you can only change yourself.

 

[Darkside]

My mother's diagnosis was from one of my psychiatrist. In fact this was after my mother threatened to disown me if I did not seek immediate therapy because "I wanted to kill her". I had no such though or intention, but being 25 at the time and still not quite sure about my own sanity, I felt maybe she was right and I should check this out.

My mother found out that her blackmail worked and phoned my doctor. He confirmed he was seeing me. I gave him hell for that, because he played right into her mind games. So, therapy lasted 9 months, enough time to build my self-confidence back and move on. My mother eventually asked me what the therapist said about her, I repeated his conclusion that she needed to see him more than I did....

Part of my trust in men is due to my good relationship with my dad. He dotted on me when I was a kid. Out of four children, my older brother and younger sister had the worst of it because no one was in THEIR corner. Older brother was diagnosed with schizophrenia in his late twenties. Has survived somehow. Sister also suffers from Major Depression and taken the low achiever role. She is a very angry and manipulative person. Both my brother and sister have continued to try and seek approval from our parents in their adult years and it breaks my heart to see them hurt over and over again.

I'm not a saint. I have also been called a narcissicist. I have a bad temper. I can be obnoxious and arrogant. Sometimes I'm a walking paradox of feeling superior yet thinking I'm a complete failure. I don't think it's possible to erase the scars and the harm completely, no matter how much you rage and wish you could. I do have trust issues with older women, often paranoid at their motives and behavior. It's taken a long long time for me to gain insight into myself and keep a lid on my more destructive side most of the time.

You are right, you can only change yourself.

I'm suspicious of any diagnosis by a therapist or psychiatrist who has never seen the person. They might be right but they might not be and it can screw with the dynamics of the relationship. My second wife's therapist diagnosed me as narcissistic and I never met the woman. That ruined whatever was left of our marriage - not that it wasn't bound to end anyway. (Now that I think about it I only heard this second hand so I'm not sure she actually told my ex-wife that at all.)

I wish I had a model for a good relationship to fall back on - somewhere ... anywhere. But I don't. The closest would be a great aunt and uncle, but I lost touch with them after I turned 14. Everyone else in my family was either too distant or dysfunctional themselves and poor models. My only desire in life right now is try and give my own children something positive to look to, but if I can't form a relationship with a woman I don't see how that will happen.