Happy Narcissistic Mother's Day

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Hi there,

I kind of would like an answer to this, but if I don't hear anything I will stick with plan (A) which is to send a sort of generic Mother's Day e-card to my mother tomorrow... Is there EVER going to be a good time to put my foot down and tell her how I really feel? And it might be futile because I've already sent her a big letter before on the "what I don't like about your behaviour and what it does to me and here are some things I would rather you did instead because this is how I feel" ...and it didn't work.

And talking to her in person doesn't work, because it's easier for her to interrupt, gaslight, argue, get emotional or have a tantrum. I only have so much life left in me to suck dry! lol

Usually I write what I want to say and then I don't send it. Because I don't believe it's gonna make her want to change.

Anyway....


---- ORIGINAL POST ------
Okay, Mother's Day is tomorrow.

I've decided to send an e-card. I'm not mailing out a card (I can never find one that isn't too sentimental/Mother-Worshippy/gushy garbage). I am not sending flowers.

I was thinking of just keeping it short and simple.

It crossed my mind that I could ask her to seek help, or at least give her more of an explanation as to why I've taken these measures (blocking her, not calling her, restricting communications to emails only). I suppose one could describe that as a Mother's Day Present, in that it is, in fact, the truth instead of pretending everything is wonderful.

lol Is there ever a good time to "tell it like it is?"

It's sometimes difficult to 'feel' how the person is 'talking' or what the voice 'sounds' like in someone else's head when they read it. If I know my mother, she will read it like I am screaming at her, and she will melt into a puddle of crocodile tears and moan about how awful I am to my dad. And of course he will comfort her and agree with her and not say anything in my defense.

I was wondering if I could poll around and ask people what they think? Should I just say, "Happy Mother's Day. From, your daughter (my name)" and leave it at that?

Or should I say something like (sorry it's so long):

Dear Mom,

I want to be able to feel like you are actually a mother to me. I wanted to get you a card but they all gush about how wonderful mothers are. I wanted to get you flowers, but again, it doesn't reflect how I am feeling right now. I want to love you.

The reason I find it hard to have a relationship with you is because I don't truly believe you are capable of having one with me. You may not realize it, but you project a lot of things on me (and others) and sometimes it's like you are talking about yourself, but about other people. You have to be in control every single second. You can't relax. I don't think you realize this but I feel you are quite ill. You have told me that you aren't interested in seeking help, and that you give up these things to God. When I hear that, it sounds like an excuse not to seek help, or that you don't think anything is wrong.

You also trouble me because you act one way when it's just you and me, but when Dad is present, you act completely different. You fool him into thinking you never do anything to your children, and he enables you because he won't help us. He won't even help himself. You have tantrums when you don't have your way. You will try to get your way, at first by begging and pleading, and then turn around and lash out and get vindictive. And whenever you do something that shocks or offends someone else, you never take responsibility. You make it sound like the ones who are trying to protect themselves are the bad people, simply because they have their own opinions and mind and lives. People react negatively to your behaviour because your behaviour is unacceptable. You only feel rejected and angry because of their reactions, but you never seem to realize or accept that you are the cause of this rejection.

I feel really angry and sad that we can't have a normal relationship. It just feels to me that I was mothering you. I've never felt mothered. Sadly, I've felt smothered.

It is my hope that you seek help from a psychiatrist or psychologist. I know this will be hard to accept, because you only see what is wrong with other people and not what is wrong inside yourself. But I pray that you do something to help yourself. Somewhere inside you, it's possible that there is a lost little girl, who thinks somehow that the only way to get love is to make people love you. You think that loving people means controlling them. You have such intense fear that no one will love you that you cling and try manipulate people into being a part of your life. You give gifts that are not gifts: they are tools to manipulate and control. Why do you think I rarely accept things from you anymore? The last time I did accept something, you did just as I suspected. You wanted us to do something for you.

On some level I really love you. But that's probably why I am so sad and angry. If I wasn't sad and angry, it would be because I didn't care. But because of things you've done, I am sad and angry. So don't try to tell me I'm too sensitive and ask me if it is my "time of the month" and don't offer me drugs to "help ease my mind." Those are methods that undermine me and belittle my feelings. The reason I feel how I feel is not because of things I have done or because of my body chemistry. I feel those things because you affect me negatively. It's called "gaslighting" when you try to deceive me into thinking it is my fault for me reacting negatively to your negative behaviour.

Right now I still do not have the strength to pick up the phone and call you. If I try to talk to you verbally about this, you are still very good at pushing my buttons and manipulating me. I don't want to argue with you anymore about who is right and wrong. If it is that important for you to be right all the time, if you can't seek help because you don't want to admit there is anything wrong with the way you think and how you handle emotions, then you are effectively sealing yourself off from me. You have lost a lot of friends and family for the same reason and now you have moved to another part of the country in a desperate attempt to latch onto some more friends. I wonder how long it will last if you keep up your same habits.

I know it may not be entirely your fault, as some of these behaviours are caused by the way you were raised. I remember when you said to me that you always felt that you had to compete with your brother and sisters, that you always had to get affection by doing things instead of just being loved for who you are. If that is the case, then I know exactly how you feel. Your mom was ill, and so is mine.

Good luck and no matter what happens, I will always have a place for you in my heart.
- (my name) -

------------ END OF ORIGINAL POST --------------

How does that sound?

So either vote KEEP IT SIMPLE (and an explanation would be nice)

or vote SEND THE LETTER (and an explanation would be nice)

PS: I might actually chicken out anyway and either not send that letter at all, or send it later... I'm just a little worried what her reaction will be; she has harassed and threatened other relatives to try to use them to get to me and my brother before. I don't know what kind of tizzy she might work herself into and what she might do to herself or my dad.

 

[SueW]

Hi Jollygreen,

Brilliant letter! I am not going to vote but I am asking myself why you are asking us as to what you should do. You could send the letter and ask for a reply with a deadline - what I mean is something like 'please respond by [date] and let me know what you think. If you don't respond by [date] I will take it that you do not take responsibility for any of your actions etc etc in which case I can no longer stay friends with you' If there is any ounce of non-narcissistism in your mom that is not narcissistic then I think you will get a reply and she may try to change. If she is truly consumed by narcissism then you may not get the reply you hope for or you may get one of those vague apologies. I am wondering if you are actually afraid that the response you get from this letter may finally confirm something one way or the other. In other words you have put your cards on the table and whatever response you get from your mom will determine your future. Sounds to me like you need to know so that you can make a decision. Sounds to me that this is a 'crunch time' letter.

Sue

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Yeah, but perhaps Mother's Day wasn't the best time to do it. lol Well, there never is a good time. And then I was going to send a similar letter to my dad regarding his role, because it's not like he can get off Scott free...

I'm not as worried about 'retaliation.' The worst she can do is write me back and tell me something's wrong with me, like usual. Or deny that anything's wrong with her, like usual. She can't call me (I blocked her phone), and she can't come all the way from Victoria Island in BC to Saskatchewan without considerable loss of funding/Airmiles... I mean she has to have that for traveling, she can't spend it on her kids (or if she does, woah that's gonna be one hell of an invisible contract terms and conditions clause). She's probably already made some kind of algorithm in the will to minus the amount of my inheritence = to the amount of time I don't talk to her. At least she told me that's what she did with my younger brother who hasn't spoken to her in over 5 years. I am sure she told me so I could tell him, and I did told him, but we both aren't surprised at all. The only reason I told him was so he could financially prepare himself if necessary. I'm prepared to accept if she does that to me, too. I think I am still the executor of the will, but at least I am not tied to any of their stupid slumlord houses anymore. If my middle brother ends up with the entire inheritance, he's the one least-equipped to live on his own means anyway, mom made sure of that. So even though he'll probably spend it all on drugs, alcohol and women, at least he's in BC and he can turn into a homeless person in relative safety, since it's warmer on the coast than where we live. All I know is he's not coming back here to leech us dry because he's as bad as my mother is.

Anyway, I've written plenty of letters like that to my parents and never sent them.

The funny thing is, after I sent them that email saying I wasn't going to call and restricted our communication to email-only, they emailed back as though nothing was wrong. They didn't ask why, or beg for me to call or anything (not that I would have expected it). So the lack of reaction is why I think it's affected them a lot. My mom has invaded my dad's realm of email & Facebook, so it's like I'm talking to a mix of mom and dad now and I can't tell who is writing what. It's like he's absorbed into her consciousness and doesn't have any of his own consciousness left. I don't even have any joy of just talking to my dad anymore with those tools of communication.

*sigh* Do you think I should just send that letter anyway?

 

[SueW]

I really can't answer your question as to whether you should send the letter because I don't know exactly how you feel and I don't know exactly the circumstances. However, I think you need to be asking yourself why you can't make the decision.

Sue

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

lol

OK, the reason I don't want to send it is that (A)it will probably not get her to do anything, nothing will change.

On the other hand, (B)if she's got a shred of self left in her, she might do something for her children and other people for a change.

And I was thinking I would send it but then on another thread (the original one) two people indicated perhaps that I should just leave things be because they felt (A) is the more likely result. On the other hand they might have not been aware that my mom can't come beating down my door or harassing me on the phone, so they might have been trying to protect me.

(C) And of course, because I am a bit insecure about making decisions, I thought I would touch base with people here and ask for their opinion. Ya know, poll the audience. Call a friend. Maybe I'll win a million bucks.

 

[SueW]

Ok well from everything you say, by sending it, you might find out something and then again, it might not change anything. I guess the thing to ask is what have you to lose or gain by sending it and what have you to lose or gain by not sending it? I just read the letter again and you have worn your heart on your sleeve - there is the potential to get hurt. I also think that you may have a few final shreds of hope left about your mom. Sending that letter, or the response it might get, may well confirm what you have suspected all along - that maybe she can't love you. If you do send it I would certainly put a deadline in for a reply because it sounds to me that she is good at doing nothing and may play waiting games with you. Of course she may well apologise and not mean it.
As long as you are ready for the response you should be ok but it's your decision. It may also be worth asking yourself what you hope to gain by sending it.

Sue

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

lol

lol OK: I should have just sent it like I was going to. But perhaps not on Mother's Day. But at least I edited it one more time before I sent it. I will be more surprised if she DOES actually seek therapy. I will not be shocked at all if she gets pissed off that I said anything about her. My husband, upon me re-reading it to him, thinks it's awesome. So here it is one more time... There isn't much changed to the original...

------------THE LETTER TO MY NARCISSISTIC MOTHER------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mom,

I was going to send this to you on Mother's Day, but wanted to wait and think on it a bit more about it before I sent it.

What I want is to be able to feel like you are actually a mother to me. I wanted to get you a card but they all gush about how wonderful mothers are. I wanted to get you flowers, but again, it doesn't reflect how I am feeling right now. I want to love you.

The reason I find it hard to have a relationship with you is because I don't truly believe you are capable of having one with me. You may not realize it, but you project a lot of things on me (and others) and sometimes it's like you are describing yourself when you are talking about other people. You have to be in control every single second. You can't relax. You always seem to be scheming or analyzing. I don't think you realize this but I have felt for quite a long time that you are ill. I have tried to be subtle about persuading you to seek counseling/therapy because of what happened with Robin, but you have told me that you aren't interested in seeking help, and that you give these things to God. When I hear that, it sounds like either an excuse not to seek help, or that you don't think anything is wrong.

You also trouble me because you act one way when it's just you and me, but when Dad is present, you act completely different. You fool him into thinking you never do anything to your children, and he enables you because he won't help us. I think sometimes he fools himself, too. He won't even help himself. Every thought and feeling I had that wasn't the same as yours, you reacted as though having my own mind was wrong. If I tried to think independently you would either have a screaming match with me, or act exasperated, or belittle me, or tell me there must be something wrong with me. You have tantrums when you don't have your way. You will try to get your way, at first by begging and pleading, and then turn around and lash out and get vindictive. And whenever you do something that shocks or offends someone else, you never take responsibility. You make it sound like the ones who are trying to protect themselves are the bad people, simply because they are trying to have the right to have their own opinions and minds and lives. People react negatively to your behaviour because your behaviour is unacceptable. You only feel rejected and angry because of their reactions, but you never seem to realize or accept that you are the cause of these rejections.

I feel really angry and sad that we can't have a normal relationship. It just feels to me that I was mothering you. I've never felt mothered. Sadly, I've felt smothered.

It is my hope that you seek help from a psychiatrist or psychologist. I know this will be hard to accept, because you only see what is wrong with other people and not what is wrong inside yourself. But I pray that you do something to help yourself. Somewhere inside you, it's possible that there is a lost little girl, who thinks somehow that the only way to get love is to make people love you. You think that loving people means controlling them. You have such intense fear that no one will love you that you cling and try manipulate people into being a part of your life. You give gifts that are not gifts: they are tools to manipulate and control. Why do you think I rarely accept things from you anymore? The last time I did accept something, you did just as I suspected. You wanted us to do something for you.

On some level I really love you. But that's probably why I am so sad and angry. If I wasn't, it would be because I didn't care. But because of things you've done and continue to do, I am offering you something you can do for your children, or at least me, your daughter. So don't try to tell me I'm "too sensitive" and ask me if it is my "time of the month" and don't offer me drugs to "help ease my mind." Those are methods that undermine me and belittle my feelings and prevent me from standing up for myself. The reason I feel how I feel is not because of things I have done or because of my body chemistry. I feel those things because you affect me. It's called "gaslighting" when you try to deceive me into thinking it is my fault for me reacting negatively to your negative behaviour.

Right now I still do not have the strength to pick up the phone and call you. If I try to talk to you verbally about this, you are still very good at pushing my buttons and manipulating me. I don't want to argue with you anymore about who is right and wrong. If it is that important for you to be right all the time, if you won't seek help because you don't want to admit there is anything wrong with the way you think and how you handle emotions, then you are effectively sealing yourself off from me. You have lost a lot of friends and family for the same reason and now you have moved to another part of the country in a desperate attempt to latch onto some more friends. I wonder how long it will last if you keep up your same habits.

I am not going to wait around for a reply forever either. I want to hear a response from you within a month: please let me know via email by the beginning of June: Are you seeking assistance from a therapist? Yes or no? And when will you be starting? I don't want you saying you are "going to" seek help, because at some point you will suddenly be distracted by something and then "forget." I may require some proof that you are seeking help. If you value your relationship with me, you will do this small thing. It's not just for me, either, it is for you. Call this an intervention if you want. How is someone who is ill going to be able to perceive something is wrong with them? If your reality filters are broken how can you tell what you feel is in fact based on reality? I swear, hearing you talk sometimes, it's like you are either creating your own reality and believing your fake world is the true one, or else you are a very adept actress and smooth operator. You could have a room full of people looking at a piece of fruit on the table, and it's an apple, but you could convince everyone to say it's an orange because you say it is. They will either say it's an orange because they are tired of arguing with you, or because you make them doubt themselves. You are relentless. I have been wanting to tell you for years. I was just afraid to confront you in person about it because you are not a predictable person. And I have no more energy for you to suck out of me. I am on my last reserves, so I cannot afford to lose anymore in an argument over the phone with you, or hear your exasperated voice, like I am somehow less worthy of your attention and you have better things to do. Or your tone of voice that makes it sound like you think I am the crazy one. Well, you did manage to make me crazy. I have very low self-esteem, and I second-guess myself a lot. I kept making bad relationship choices (until I met David) and work choices. I lost myself: I wanted to please everyone else because I was never supposed to please myself, I was only supposed to do what you wanted and passively do it. That wore me right out till I felt like a skinless spineless skeleton. I've only recently been growing back my skin and spine.

It may not be entirely your fault, as some of these behaviours may be caused by the way you were raised. I remember when you said to me that you always felt that you had to compete with your brother and sisters, that you always had to get affection by doing things instead of just being loved for who you are. If that is the case, then I know exactly how you feel. Your mom was ill, and so is mine. So do something about it, but not by yourself and not with your physician, and not with a priest, and not with self-medicating. I want you to talk to someone who is a psychiatrist or a psychologist. I don't care how often you go per month but I hope at least one time a month, minimum. I just don't want you to go one time and then if the therapist says something you don't want to hear, then you refuse to keep going. After you have gone a few times try to open up about things. And whatever way you want to do it: either just you go, or you and Dad go.

Good luck and no matter what happens, I will always have a place for you in my heart.

- Holly -

 

[SueW]

Holly
That is a superb letter. If you send then I would send it recorded (so she can't say she hasn't had it). There is a chance she may go for therapy and change or not change. There is always a chance she may say she is going for therapy. I also worry that she may use this as a bargaining tool "You said you would contact me if I went for therapy - well I am now going for therapy so when are you going to visit" or something like that. I think as long as you are ready for what ever answer you get you should be ok. Of course whilst you are waiting for a reply, your mom has a lot of power - the ball will be in her court and you will be the one waiting.
I truly worry for you, Holly. I hope you make the right decision.
S

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Oh I already sent it last night.

I am fully prepared for whatever response I get. If she asks if I am going to see her, I will say that I will come if and when I am ready and not before. I will also mention that "I've been treated this way for 40 years, so don't expect miracles, and don't expect me to just drop everything if you say you're suddenly cured and you want me to come visit. You kept offering time shares and trips with you, and I can't even handle being around you for more than a few hours. I don't even want to talk to you on the phone yet, let alone see you."

Before that email I sent her she's already been talking about her friends all dying of cancer, or barely surviving and she says it would be nice to visit/talk because "you never know" which I ignored completely. I know she's used cancer as a tool to try to get her son to talk to her (she had a speck of suspicious cells that she was treating with a cream, and she went to Florida anyway) and she was trying to get ME to pass on that BS to him. And of course I said no. And she's also told someone renting from her that she has cancer so he would stop yelling at her. So I am not falling for any tricks.

I put in the email that I would possibly need proof that she was seeing a therapist. I know some people who could check that out for me, and I would even email -- if they needed their patient's consent to disclose that she was seeing them, then I would tell my mother, okay, you have to give them disclosure to tell me this.

 

[wanda20]

Hello Jolly,

I can sympathise with what you are saying. I have my own issues with my narcissistic mother. In fact I have been through the whole letter thing that you have done. Believe me, I put a lot of thought and effort into the letter, showed it to my man as well, and posted it off. In hind sight, I wished I had not done it. There have been letters backwards and forwards over the years. I put my point of view forward, she responds as if she hasn't even read it. I read her reply, and then respond back to her hoping she will finally listen to my point of view. No luck whatsoever. Now I am not saying what you should or should not do. This is my personal experience only.

But I have found that it is a complete waste of time. Point in question - she has posted yet another letter, last week, telling me what an awful daughter I am. I am posting it back to her with my comments of "read the letter I wrote previously". I think I have said that to her at least three times now. It's just a pointless exercise that has no winners, just the loss of a mother/daughter relationship that my mother has no concept of.

She won't change, she doesn't want to change and she does not want to know how to change. She wants the controlling relationship she used to have with me for the first 35 years of my life. I am now 44. I wouldn't even bother suggesting she go to a therapist because I did that too. My mother went to a therapist and told me after one session that the therapist didn't know what he was talking about, and as such, was not going back.

I am sure, like your mum, it relates back to her childhood. My mum had a similar "lack of love" that you described in your mum's family. But I am not a professional therapist and I cannot help her with that. Only she can seek help. I just think now that whole situation is really sad - for me and all my siblings. Each day I try to adjust to the fact that I don't have a mother that can give me the unconditional love I have dreamed of - when my mother clearly stated to me many times that she does not believe in unconditional love.

Anyway, I hope I have not overstepped the line in telling you about my experiences. I wish you all the best and hope things go better for you in the future. Take care.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Hi wanda20!

lol Actually, I totally agree with you. I wasn't expecting anything, but yet I was really disappointed anyway. I got a reply from both my mom and my dad.

My responses are in --italics--
-------MOM'S REPLY-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Holly,

Oh, how I have loved you. From the very first day I saw you. I continued to love you. I could tell you a zillion wonderful real life stories about you and the beautiful baby, active toddler, loving and kind and happy and smart in school when you arrived there. You sang and jumped, and played with the crickets. When I raised you I did not know how to stand up for myself, either, so I didn’t know how to teach you. You were a wonderful student all through school and look at you. You went on to university and got one of the first degrees of any Cunningham or Soper on either side of the family. You have accomplished so much! -- Wow, gushy! --

And you know what else: you are also such a loving, generous person to others with a real hospitality in your home and with your friends.

[Here's where she turns this around to make this MY fault] Did you know that with some serious depression, knowing all your accomplishments doesn’t necessarily help? The psychologist I had didn’t know that. The psychiatrist did. I was suicidal and depressed only once in my life, but I had no meds until I saw a psychiatrist. A person’s spouse’s hands are tied. They try to help but it doesn’t usually work in a serious chemical imbalance. -- I think she means that my dad's hands were tied because he didn't know what to do -- This depression had come about when we had a new baby Robin -- my youngest brother, Chris -- my middle brother -- had not slept before Rob’s birth and even at 4 yrs was still not sleeping. I literally was deprived of sleep for too long because of a child’s chemical imbalance. I know I wasn’t a bad person, as you seem to infer. -- I don't think I inferred anywhere that she was a bad person for dealing with my brother Chris --

When you were an adult, I did notice that when you came to our house, occasionally you’d clamp up whenever something was discussed. -- that's for sure -- But I had hoped we could, if not always agree, at least agree to disagree, -- her idea of 'agree to disagree' is akin to 'swallowing emotions' or 'forgiving each other and moving on as though nothing happened because that's what family does' -- but of course only after you gave your whole-hearted opinion, which you didn’t. David does it so freely. He’ll say, “No disrespect intended, but this is how I see it…” and gives his opinion wholeheartedly. Most families can agree to disagree. By the way, I never had to compete with my siblings. I did work hard to gain self-esteem by working hard. The only person I may have competed with was myself, from time to time. -- she is directly contradicting words I heard her say -- I did need to learn not to work so hard, or at least to take lots of rest at intervals and love myself in those rest periods.

I did see a psychologist once during a depression I went through. I was helped some but it took about two years to come out of it fully. A psychiatrist would have been better, perhaps. I did not tell you this, but by the time you told me you wanted me to see a psychiatrist/psychologist about Robin and Grace, I already had. -- she seems not to remember but she, in fact, did tell me that she had seen a psychologist once already -- She informed me that obviously, no matter what Dad & I tried to do to show our love for Rob and Grace, it would never get through to them, so we should stay away from them for at least 6 months to give matters a rest and us a rest. -- however apparently she still would call my brother and sister-in-law constantly, is their side of the story, until they finally blocked her -- When Dad & I stayed away, we had to not see them when we went to Edmonton in order to follow the psychologist’s advice. No one is all bad or all good. Them nor us. -- I remember when my brother had planned a visit to my gramma's and of course this was supposed to happen simultaneously when my mom and dad showed up, so apparently my mom caused a bit of havoc and guilt amongst my relatives because she was quite self-pitying and claiming she didn't want to cause trouble, so apparently they drove around for a while --

At an earlier time, I also saw the psychologist re: Robin’s always being ill for six years with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and pressures at my workplace. After I left the correctional centre a year and a half later, there was a grand exit of 6 nurses at once; they left for the same reasons I did. You cannot say I brought those troubles on myself. You would have to blame the other 6 nurses too. -- I don't know why she thinks I am blaming her for leaving that jail; I actually told her I was all for her leaving. I agreed with her that was an awful place to begin with and a poisoned work environment with management --

Please do not assume you know everything about what I have said or done in other people’s relationships. You’ve visited and heard other family opinions about Dad and me but seldom heard any of the things they said or did to Dad & me. If you did hear, you might see things differently. But we chose to keep it private. -- naturally convenient, because everything they do is kept private. And I do know some of my mom's version of things that she claimed, but it's never the truth, so how is one supposed to believe the Narcissist's side of the story? lol ---

You cannot coerce anyone to see a psychologist or psychiatrist by giving the person an ultimatum. Personally, I believe if someone is depressed, a psychiatrist is best because they can tell when medication is needed to bring about healing. A regular general practitioner has to believe I need a psychiatrist, which right now at present is not the case. -- nice... Now I am the one trying to coerce her --

Dad and I have been saying for years that we wanted to move here to BC. -- I know that, but they never ever told us they were buying property, or that they were renting out a place there for a couple years. That info was sprung on us three months before they were actually moving. I was quite surprised that she kept that info to herself for so long, and wonder why she kept it to herself -- It has nothing to do with anyone. -- oh, really? -- We have been visiting old friends here since age 21 and 23. It almost sounds like you want our move to be a failure. You went to the US and we wished you well. -- no she didn't. She was telling my brothers BS about David and also ended up coming to visit because of course then they get to go to Florida free of charge. We called them ONE time for a small loan of about $300, but because we were now married and on our own she decided no, we should figure things out on our own. All I needed was to pay our rent on time because my first paycheque was delayed. It was more like 'well, you deserted us, so you don't get any help from us.' So guess who helped instead? My husband's mother. Yet she feeds and clothes my middle brother and has spent thousands of dollars cleaning up his debt for him and bought him a car and bought him groceries. -- Can you not do that for us? From my experience with depression, I would say if you get suicidal thoughts the psychologist is putting a person at risk by not referring them to a psychiatrist. Psychologists and psychiatrists are often only as good as their own personal level of growth and maturity. Please get a good one. You’re worth it. -- oh brother, I totally do not feel suicidal, I don't know why she thinks I am ---

Finally, consider taking a copy of your e-mail that you wrote to me, to your counselor and this letter, too. -- well, here it is folks... I'm baring my soul (and my parents' souls)... What do you think? Do I still need the therapy? -- You are going through a really big growth period right now. I only know because I’ve been there. It’s lake having huge waves almost knocking you down and drowning you. During that time, you are barely catching your breath, it seems, but with good support the water does go back gradually and one finds oneself in a new place, a new beginning. During that first part, your friends (or, for that matter, your relatives) may look like your enemies. But afterwards you’ll know who really are your friends. I found myself reading some everyday language book by Carl Jung. He sees depression as the storm before the growth and happiness and development of opposite new sides to one’s personality. -- Ok, so now she's talking to me as though I am a nut and that I need help because of course it's ME not her that needs the help. Classic --

Sometimes a physical problem can lead to depression. Dr. VanRooyen could check that out for you. For example, your Dad is feeling better since he got off the coricosteroid inhaler he was on for so many years. You’re on one, too. -- again, always offering expert advice: I'm a big girl and I've talked to my doctor several times about my medications and still talk to him about them --

Search with God for answers. He’s always looking to find you; do you ever look back? He loves you and is the only source of real strength if we but ask. Consider the prayer of Footsteps. But if suicidal thoughts or other thoughts of self-harm hit you – get immediate psychiatric help to get meds. Please don’t risk your life for one minute. -- Here we go. Gotta throw religion into the mix --

Now, at present, I do take a mild regular dose of anti-anxiety meds daily for the rest of my life and I have no shame about that. Meds are one type of healing included in all of God’s gifts of healing types. I feel well on this. It is from the general practitioner originally being Dr. VanRooyen. Please be certain I know myself well enough now that if that were not working I’d ask for help. There is a history of chemical imbalance on both sides of the family, so anyone in the family need not feel any shame about this. Would we feel shame about any other chemical imbalance: diabetus for example? I know this is a very, very tough journey, but you can find the answers. You will find the answers! -- Well, that's very comforting, coming from her --

Lastly, we continue to love you, hope for you, pray for you. Please believe that.we simply do not have the answers for you but with God’s strength if you turn and receive it you will find the answers yourself. Then in the future do give your opinion, but try not to assume it’s not important to me. Of course we may differ, but will, if necessary, agree to disagree. I believe some of the time we do agree. Best of all, you’ll stop being your own worst judge. -- sigh - This may be what she's gone through or is going through, not what I am going through--

Please, though, not a whole lifetime of resentments at one time. Try one issue at a time and I can handle it and so could you. If later you wish to write an e-mail about one issue at a time, hey, I want to be a better listener. Please, I invite you to voice your opinions wholeheartedly but not aggressively, instead, assertively. I know I can’t take another letter like this last one that you sent Your DR./Psychologist can give you info on assertiveness. -- Does anyone else see this as an excuse for me to continue emailing her? It's tempting to send her some single instances of her behaviour over the years a bit at a time so she can easily digest things. However, I get the feeling this is more of a ploy to keep in contact with me, and I have the feeling if I attempt to show her the wrongness in a situation or my feelings, instead of her apologizing, she'll turn around and say that I misinterpreted it or make excuses of why she acted that way -- so it won't be her fault again --




Love Mom



P.S. your beautiful pink lily for Mother’s Day brought tears of happiness to my eyes!They reminded me of you! Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Please take time yourself before you write again. -- that was the only thing I sent her for Mother's Day --

PS We fully intend to still give you that 10,000$ when we are able We had tried to sell Edward and had it on the market and really wanted to be able to let you know where things stood, but you totally squashed that with the statement:” Don’t ever talk to us about the rentals again!” We have and will respect that until you tell us differently. We felt totally caught in a bind. -- nice deflection, now it's also my fault that they 'couldn't tell me about selling that property.' And that property is of --

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-------DAD'S REPLY-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s hard to know where to start, but I’ve got to get something down because my life’s on hold until I do. I can’t seem to concentrate on anything else while I stew about this – the e-mail’s piling up, now the printer doesn’t work, there are all sorts of other things I should be attending to but can’t seem to focus on until I get this thing out of my head.

Characterizations of your mother as crazy and conniving and of your father as befuddled and delusional aside, it must be pretty obvious to you that if we really are crazy, we’re hardly likely to seek psychiatric help. And if we’re not crazy, we’re still not very likely to seek psychiatric help, even when given an ultimatum from a child of ours. That can only mean you are putting us in an impossible position in order to justify in your own mind whatever the unspoken threat is that you’ve implied in your ultimatum. -- wow, I didn't even mean it as a threat, I just was desperate to try to get them to do something; backfired I guess --

As you know, the computer/Internet are my domain, and utterly foreign to your mother. -- the hell it is: she was already mucking around and invading his emails as soon as I said I wasn't going to be calling anymore to protect myself -- It took her two or three days of grueling effort to do her reply on the computer; it just isn’t her medium, just as I abhor the telephone and am very uncomfortable in that medium. And, actually, most people are quite different online than they are in person, so cyberspace isn’t necessarily the best medium to discuss the deeper issues of life. -- oh no, that's why it's so much better to talk on the phone so that she can push my buttons --

In fact, I really obsessed for a couple of days as to whether I should even show your e-mail to Mom, but in the end it was clear that hearing from you was too important to her, even if it was a devastating bombshell. However, considering the effect it has had on both of us, I would have to say any future long, rambling “you’re crazy and you’ve wrecked my life” e-mail will have to go directly to the Trash bin, and I probably won’t even tell Mom about it. Neither of us feel we deserve this.

As you can see from her reply, she has undertaken to defend us against your accusations and explain our actions, as well as offer suggestions for your own well-being. I, however, feel that we are under no obligation to do that, and it would be a waste of time anyway, as your mind is made up and anything we say can and will be used against us.

I miss you, although displaying your art around the house helps, and I can only hope you find a measure of peace and happiness in whatever way you find works best for you.


Love,

Dad

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-- Well, there's the proof: it didn't work out. In fact, it backfired a bit. I can't say I'm surprised, but I'm disappointed anyway. If anything, I was more surprised by my dad's reply than mom's. I can see he's totally taken in by her and jumps to her defense, as usual.

So what are your thoughts? Anyone? My first thought was not to reply at all and just let things be. Ya know, throw in the white flag. Does anyone think that I am the one that needs therapy?? I've gone to therapy about this stuff already, in fact that was part of the reason I sent that note in the first place: I thought of it as a catalyst for me, and something I thought should be said for a long time... Does my email to them (see the one I sent after Mother's Day) make me sound ill?? Do their responses look the same to you, the readers, as it looks to me?

 

[SueW]

Hi Holly
I think your Mom is extremely convincing and plausible but as I read the letter (and I have read this a couple of times now) I can sense the underlying coldness and arrogance that exists. It's the fact she had the audacity to tell you what you are going through. The letter has been written very carefully and she is very careful to put herself in a positive light and absolve herself from any blame (she is well aware that this is in black and white). There was not a shred of an apology in that letter or even a shred of humility - that is how I see it.
Holly, it seems to me that you need a second opinion as to what to do. Only you can make your mind up. I got my second opinion from a therapist who knows about NPD. Have you been to see a therapist or a psychologist who knows about NPD?
Sue

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Yes... Well my therapist (whom I have not seen in about a year or more) seems to have a lot of experience with a lot of different types, and he was the one who said he thought it sounded like she had NPD...

Anyway, I thought it was very amusing that I was told by my mother that I am the one going through something, and again, she turns it all around and makes the reason I sent the letter to her that I am the one who is sick. I said I was "sad and angry" and "frustrated," I didn't say I was depressed. At least I don't think I'm depressed. I've felt like the world was falling down on my head before, and this isn't one of those times. I felt lost during my time growing up with her, but when I became lost as an adult, that was the one and only time (for a couple years) that I saw him.

I especially like how she mentioned the property on Edward Street. She has several properties and the reason I had hung up on her was the last time I spoke to her on the phone she wanted me to look up something in my local newspaper (and it was an ad for a different property for sale/rent) to verify that it had been worded correctly in the paper. She got so snarky and huffy with me that I hung up the phone and shortly thereafter I blocked her phone number. And then I stated I did not want to have anything to do with rentals anymore. That's because I have to lay down boundaries or she's going to try to get me to check every time she puts an ad in the paper, and there were already some times when she wanted us to take the snow blower down to one of her properties. She happened to 'give' us that snow blower and we were prepared somewhat for the likelihood that she would then expect something from us, and sure enough she did.

Edward Street was a property that she, my dad and I were on title. The tricky part is the fact that I wasn't talking to her in my early twenties, because she had kicked me out of the house (her last words were 'you won't last more than three weeks' and I stayed away for almost a whole year). So she went around and bought a house for me, and a house for my youngest brother and middle brother. She had me and my youngest brother on title with different properties, but the middle brother apparently she felt had no brains for being on title. The problem with my youngest brother was when my mother did not report income and she was very enmeshed with my youngest brother at the time, and very pissed off that he was marrying a girl that remembered everything in chronological sequence and could out-argue her. So the short story is that my youngest brother played along and took some of the blame for this unreported income and then "somehow" my mother got off scot-free from that audit (but wasn't so lucky with another audit). So now my youngest brother has this black mark on his record with Revenue Canada.

With me, I never got full disclosure. I didn't know anything about my rights. Sure a real estate lawyer came by for me to sign papers and explained everything but it was way over my head and I thought my mom was doing this out of love. Ha ha ha ha ha (I know, hilarious). So years go by, and my mom kept saying she was going to sell it, and I was under the impression that I would at some point be given a third of whatever the capital gains were as a gift for my graduation. But I started getting wary to her, and asked several times about removing my name off the title. My husband and I even had a real estate fellow come over and do an assessment, and he did not think that in the condition it was in currently that it would sell for anywhere near where my mother claimed she was going to sell it for (being on a flood plain that means no one is allowed to add on to the property, also the fact that it was not 'to code' because my mother always cut corners, and there was some questionable wiring and venting, not to mention black mould was infesting the walls and the basement leaked all the time). So about 3 or 4 months before my parents planned to move to British Columbia, that's when they told us that all this time they had already bought a house and had people renting it out in BC, and that they planned to move there in July.

Well my stress levels went through the roof because now I was really concerned. I tried to ask my mom again if I could remove my name from the title. As in the past, her voice got all high-pitched and anxious-sounding and she spoke really fast telling me that if I took my name off the title now, somehow it would cost all three of us title owners to lose thousands of dollars. I just wasn't buying it anymore. I wanted to know what my true responsibilities were (and a few friends and relatives were also concerned) if they left and I was the only one on title in the province where said property existed. Sure enough I had to go behind my own mother's back and chat with a real estate agent. Now a few things came up: if there was no property manager then I would be the sole person responsible for that house. I did NOT know that and I was NOT pleased to hear this. My mom later claimed they had someone who was the property manager, but they never bothered to tell me this before, and it was quite silly not to tell me that. My mom had things all mixed up, and I am not sure if it was intentional, but she thought somehow we all owned a third of the house, but that is not how it was at all. We all owned the whole property together. There was no way I was going to cost anyone thousands of dollars if I removed my name from the title. I also learned that if I was the only sibling who was on title on a property, then legally this would mean that I wanted to take the house for profit and be responsible for taxes, etc. This shocked me, because I thought I was on the title in name only. I had not put money into the house (other than what I paid my mother for in cash that wasn't traceable) and had not made repairs or anything, but somehow I would get stuck with the responsibility of looking after a piece of real estate and selling it or renting it out if my parents ever passed away. I did not ever want anything from my mother to profit from her, dead or living.

So to straighten this all out I again sent my parents an email, giving them the benefit of the doubt that I wasn't accusing them of purposely pulling the wool over my eyes, and went so far as to say that perhaps her real estate lawyers had misinformed her previously or perhaps she had misunderstood. Of course she focused on how I went behind her back, and I kept telling her that I didn't go behind her back. In truth I used the excuse to do a name change, because the property was still in my maiden name. My mother had the audacity to say that I could have told her that I wanted to go in with her to see a lawyer because it didn't sound right to me, but I know for a fact she would have refused and been just as angry for doubting her word as truth.

She tried to bribe me into telling her why I wanted to take my name off the title, but I already told her why. I didn't have full disclosure and I didn't feel comfortable being on title when she was out-of-province. She was being all nicey-nice because of course I had been to a lawyer and knew she couldn't trick me into or out of anything anymore, and even offered to pay the $200 so I wouldn't have to do that to give all the property back to her. I did all the running around with the paperwork (next time, I will get a lawyer to do it because that was stressful in itself; we had to re-sign paperss and print more stuff off that we had missed printing before, etc). Just as she was going to hand over the cheque (which earlier I told her I was willing to pay for myself, but was just asking if she could pay half)... She said "Now that we are giving you this money, can you tell us why you want your name to be off the title." At which point I got angry and, handing back the cheque to her, I said, "If that's how your going to do this you can keep the cheque and I will be happy to pay for it myself." At which point she back-pedaled and let me have the cheque from her.

It really nearly made me laugh when my dad said that it was so painful for my mom to write an email. I mean for heaven's sake, he could have brought up the reply window for her and all she'd have to do is type it in, and then he could hit 'send.' How painful is that?? And that statement is also contradictory. When I stopped calling my mom, and blocked her number she made absolutely certain that she interfered every time I sent my dad a message. Soon I couldn't even tell if it was dad or mom writing.

I will run this past my therapist, if you think it is necessary, but I don't think it's me, I think it's her.

 

[rdw]

What could your mother or father do for you now to alleviate this situation? (in ten words or less).

 

[SueW]

Hi Holly,

I really like what RDW has asked you. Genius!

I can really see that you are sounding off here and it really sounds like you long for your mom (and dad) to acknowledge what you believe to be true. Your last email goes into a lot of detail re property and I really didn't understand a lot of the jargon. However, I get the general impression and please don't try to explain. The bottom line is, your mom had used you and your siblings to avoid some kind of property tax - the details are irrelavant. This alone tells me that, to her, you don't matter. She is quite prepared to let you (and your siblings) risk getting in trouble so that she can avoid some tax. Her actions speak louder than her words.

I will run this past my therapist, if you think it is necessary, but I don't think it's me, I think it's her.

If I think its necessary? What about you?
I wasn't necessarily meaning you ran it past your therapist - what I meant was, your therapist knows you and is a witness to your character. If it isn't clear to him it is certainly clear to me that your experiences and reactions are very normal for somebody suffering a less than normal situation.

Sue

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

:facepalm:

I am sorry about the lengthy explanations. I guess I felt I needed to get descriptive because I got a bit defensive.

Anyway... Sorry, 10 words or less...

(other than going to hell or magically somehow being able to see what they've done)

I'd be happy if they could just leave me alone, now. :dance2:

 

[rdw]

It was not the length of your posts that was troubling, I was interested as to what you would simply like your parents to do.

 

[SueW]

I'd be happy if they could just leave me alone, now.

Do you feel able to leave them alone?

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

After that last letter they sent me, I can see it's pretty much impossible to get them to try to do something to help themselves. They just don't see it. I wanted to try one more time.

So I did. And that's it then.

They aren't interested in getting help. They still problems they cause are caused by everyone else and not them. I can't change that, and they are right about that one -- no one can coerce them into seeking help. That would be like trying to force an alcoholic into rehab before they are ready. But I thought they might like to know how I felt and what they could do in order to keep me in their lives.

Anyhoo, I haven't had any difficulty not contacting them. I didn't even call my mother on Mother's Day. I sent her an e-card. It all seems pretty meaningless now to try to put one more ounce of energy into this, and I don't think I want to be the one to send weekly emails to my mom, like she requested, to tell her what's been bothering me, because that would take up weeks and weeks of my time, probably a whole year! lol And during that time I would be constantly worrying about what she would say, and what I should say. And she would probably try to make an excuse or say I misunderstood her or she doesn't remember or the usual gaslighting techniques... So I am very inclined not to contact them anymore. I feel way more comfortable about it than I was, say, 6 months ago. It's been such a gradual process, over years, definitely not a snap decision.

 

[rdw]

The bottom line is if you are happy with your decision and can live with the consequences of that decision, good for you. A person can only look after their own life and their own decisions so you are able to make yours and your parents are able to make theirs. That does not mean one must agree with the other they just agree to live their own lives.