"Here's what you need to do and here's why you need to do it..."

[lallieth]

Shouldnt I have felt something though? My doctor said I should start feeling some effects within 2 - 4 weeks. I took it consistently for those 5 - 6 weeks so shouldnt I have at least felt some negative side effects or withdrawl?

Also that was the time I really started researching the topic of depression. While Im no doctor I honestly feel like depression is my body trying to tell me something. Why take a medication that "covers up" your problem when you can search for the real cause of it?

Hi MJK

You weren't on a higher enough dosage of the medication for it to work properly,to give you side effects or feel withdrawal.

Generally doctors like to start their patients on a lower dosage of an anti-depressant to see how well it's being tolerated,then bump up the dosage to a therapeutic dosage.It takes at least 6-8 weeks at a therapeutic dose for the medication to start working and for you to notice a difference.

Each medication is different and each dosage is different and must be tailored to suit the patient and their particular situation.

For example,when I started Celexa I was started at 10 mg,then in a week bumped to 15,then another week 20mg's,and that was enough of a dose for me to be able to deal with my anxiety.But it took at least 8 weeks before I could really note a positive change.

I am not trying to push you into taking medication if you don't want,but what I am trying to point out is that medication can be a very helpful aid in your journey to battle the depression.

Medication does not cover up the problem,in fact it helps to calm you,get your thoughts in order so that you are better able to deal with any underlying problems or issues,causing the depression.You cannot fight the dragon if you don't have the proper weapons.

Trust me I have tried just about everything "on my own" but it was only when I started to take medication,did I realize that taking medication didn't cover up my panic disorder,but augmented my treatment of it.

 

[MaynardJamesKeenan]

Anti depressant medications do not provide symptomatic relief, as you suggest, but rather their action is on the actual brain chemistry that is thought to affect mood.

That's being a partner in your own health care.

I realize medications action is on actual brain chemistry. What my question is "Why cant imbalanced brain chemistry be a symptom of something else?"

So the brain isnt pumping out enough seratonin. Why? Who says thats the end of the rabbit hole?

Couldnt our body be telling our brain "Hey, our life is really messed up right now. Brain, can you stop pumping some seratonin so we can get things back on track?"

Humans have evolved for hundreds of thousands of years. Why on earth would "the depression gene" still be so prevelent today? Couldnt it be because it helps us instead of hurts us? Why cover it up with something that we have just tapped into in the past 30 years?

Of course, severe depression should call for medication. If your that close to the edge any crutch will help.

 

[Into The Light]

What my question is "Why cant imbalanced brain chemistry be a symptom of something else?"

what would the something else be?

Humans have evolved for hundreds of thousands of years. Why on earth would "the depression gene" still be so prevelent today? Couldnt it be because it helps us instead of hurts us? Why cover it up with something that we have just tapped into in the past 30 years?

there is a great article somewhere on the forum about that. that shows what the evolutionary advantage would be. i just have no idea where it is. does anyone remember it? something to the effect that it helped you survive - being depressed and withdrawn makes for the rest of the tribe notice you're in need and they take care of you. also, withdrawing keeps you from going out into the dangerous world - thus keeping you safe that way.

Of course, severe depression should call for medication. If your that close to the edge any crutch will help.

even moderate depression. because it can turn into severe depression really fast.

 

[Into The Light]

found the article: Evolutionary Psychology: Depression as a survival tool? - Psychlinks Psychology Self-Help & Mental Health Forum

 

[meagan80]

I really enjoyed the "Power of Now".

 

[MaynardJamesKeenan]

found the article: Evolutionary Psychology: Depression as a survival tool? - Psychlinks Psychology Self-Help & Mental Health Forum

Great article. After reading that, doesnt it seem like medication should only be used in a worst case scenerio?

What is medication for anyway? Do you honestly believe millions upon millions of Americans are born with a disfuntion in their brain that only medication can fix?

Since the introduction of SSRI's, MAOI's, and Tricyclics do you honestly feel society is "happier"?

I cant reiterate this enough. I do think antidepressants have a role. I am NOT one of those people who think theyre for the devil (Tom Cruise). I just think that in most cases people use them in a crutch which doesnt help in the long run.

 

[Halo]

Great article. After reading that, doesnt it seem like medication should only be used in a worst case scenerio?

I don't think that it necessarily has to be a "worst case scenerio" in order to take medication. I think that it helps many people and in my opinion why wait until someone is at their worst to try medication.

What is medication for anyway? Do you honestly believe millions upon millions of Americans are born with a disfuntion in their brain that only medication can fix?

Yes I honestly believe that millions upon millions of people have a disfunction in the brain and need medication. It has been proved time and again that medication plus psychotherapy helps.

Since the introduction of SSRI's, MAOI's, and Tricyclics do you honestly feel society is "happier"?

Maybe happier is not the right word but maybe more aware and accepting. I do think that society as a whole is beginning to understand that mental illnesses are a real illness that need treatment just like any other illness.

I cant reiterate this enough. I do think antidepressants have a role. I am NOT one of those people who think theyre for the devil (Tom Cruise). I just think that in most cases people use them in a crutch which doesnt help in the long run.

I definitely do not see people using them as a crutch. Do you think diabetics use insulin as a crutch? Do you think that heart patients use their meds as a crutch? It is the same thing...an illness that needs medication to help control it.

Maybe you are not someone who needs medication but please bear in mind that many people take them, including myself and I therefore ask that you please not to put them down or make such general statements such as "people using them as a crutch and don't work".

 

[MaynardJamesKeenan]

A few things...

- So for hundreds of thousands of years humanity has had a significant percentage of its population suffer from chemical imbalances? Only just now, we are fixing it with medication? From the evolutionary perspective that seems ridiculous to say the least.

- Your right. It has been proved that medication + therapy is very effective. Have you ever seen the double blind studies where an antidepressant and a sugar pill are the only variables and no therapy is involved? The results are astounding. Even the most effective medication has next to no effect on these groups. What does that tell you?

- Yes I think America is more aware and accepting but thats not the issue at all. The issue is emotional levels. Its a very simple statement, but as a whole, since the introduction of antidepressants, I dont think America has improved at all. Many would argue its gotten worse. What does that tell you?

- Yes! Diabetics and heart patients use medication as a crutch. Look at small segments of the population that live healthy lives. Look at people who work out their entire lives and eat healthy their entire lives. This particular population doesnt suffer from the same ailments the rest of America does. They live longer, fuller lives because they practiced methods that people are suppose to practice.

- Im not trying to put anyone down who takes antidepressants. If you take them and they work for you thats wonderful. If I have upset you for some reason you need to look into it further. Lets say Rush Limbaugh does both of the following...

"All black people are left handed"

"All black people are good athletes"

What draws up more anger/passion/debate? The second one of course because there is truth to it.

 

[Halo]

- So for hundreds of thousands of years humanity has had a significant percentage of its population suffer from chemical imbalances? Only just now, we are fixing it with medication? From the evolutionary perspective that seems ridiculous to say the least.

Yes now we are fixing it with medication as more research has been done and better and newer medications are working. Medications have been around for years and this is not something new to the world.

- Yes I think America is more aware and accepting but thats not the issue at all. The issue is emotional levels. Its a very simple statement, but as a whole, since the introduction of antidepressants, I dont think America has improved at all. Many would argue its gotten worse. What does that tell you?

And what do you base your "assumption" that America has not improved at all? What you have said here tells me nothing to support your position on medication compared to what research and literature about medication has shown and proven.

- Yes! Diabetics and heart patients use medication as a crutch. Look at small segments of the population that live healthy lives. Look at people who work out their entire lives and eat healthy their entire lives. This particular population doesnt suffer from the same ailments the rest of America does. They live longer, fuller lives because they practiced methods that people are suppose to practice.

You seriously believe that Diabetics and heart patients are using medication as a crutch? These people need the medication to survive and live and if they did not have it they would die. Same can be said for antidepressants. Many people need them or their depression would become severe enough that they too would lose their life.

- Im not trying to put anyone down who takes antidepressants. If you take them and they work for you thats wonderful. If I have upset you for some reason you need to look into it further. Lets say Rush Limbaugh does both of the following...

"All black people are left handed"

"All black people are good athletes"

What draws up more anger/passion/debate? The second one of course because there is truth to it.

First of all, you have not upset me and I have nothing to look into about it. What does upset me though is that you are making very generalized statements about medication which could have an impact on others here on the forum who struggle with whether to take medication for their illness or not.

Second, you obviously have very strong opinions about medication and that is fine however again I would ask that you not discard medication as useless and a crutch.

Third, if you are looking for a debate about medication and its usefulness then I would suggest that you probably came to the wrong place.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

So for hundreds of thousands of years humanity has had a significant percentage of its population suffer from chemical imbalances? Only just now, we are fixing it with medication? From the evolutionary perspective that seems ridiculous to say the least.

No. There is far more stress and helplessness and hopelessness today than even 20 years ago. And our environment and our neurochemistry interact to produce disorders like depression and anxiety, etc.

Additionally, in the past, before we had psychotrpic medications to treat these illnesses, people were thrown into asylums and chained to their beds 24/7. Would you really like to return to those days?

Your right. It has been proved that medication + therapy is very effective. Have you ever seen the double blind studies where an antidepressant and a sugar pill are the only variables and no therapy is involved? The results are astounding. Even the most effective medication has next to no effect on these groups. What does that tell you?

Yes. I've seen them and I've critiqued them. What does it tell me? That bad research, no matter how many newspapers report it, is still bad research.

Pick a study. Any study. And I'll tell you what's wrong with it.

Diabetics and heart patients use medication as a crutch.

Nonsense. They use medications to survive. There's no "crutch" about it.

 

[MaynardJamesKeenan]

Guys, please bare with me. I dont know how to divide up quotes like Halo and David Baxter so excuse me if this seems unorganized.

This is in response to Halo...

- The human race has been around for hundreds of thousands of years. We have been "weeding" out any trait that hurts our reproductive chances, through evolution. Medication, antidepressants specifically, have been an EXTREMLY recent development. Thirty years is less than the blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things. We laugh at what "doctors" did to patients in the mental health field a mere 50 years ago. I can only imagine what people in the year 2208 are going to think of our practices today. So to address your first point...No. Medication for this illness is very new to this world.

- You are also not addressing depression from an evolutionary perspective. Humans have thrived on this planet in smaller close knit communities with most of our time being spent out doors. Only in the past 100 years have we shifted to a more isolated and stationary lifestyle. Most of us are placing stress on ourselves that have never been felt by our ancestors.

- I just read a study that said 10% of US adults have used an anti depressant sometime in their life. You dont think thats a little outrageous? If 1 out of every 10 people naturally had chemical imbalances the human race wouldnt be here as we know it. If a tribe of 10 people has to care for one "depressed" member that entire tribe is doomed. Even if that tribe somehow survives that depressed member holds little to no reproductive value to any of its women. This supports the theory that depression is an aid instead of a disease that only medication can fix.

- As far as America "improving"? Your right. I cant prove that. However, you can't prove the opposite. All we have is our eyes and brains and it seems to me that we could be doing a lot better than we are. Heck, TV alone is killing us on so many levels. Never in the history of humanity have we been drilled with one idea of success than now. In 2008.

- My diabetes and heart disease comment was only there to prove the point that we can do natural and healthy things to prevent any such disorder. Like I said earlier, can you imagine a tribe that is constantly outside and eating the freshest food with the same diabetes and heart disease numbers? Depression is the same way.



This is in response to David Baxter...

- I kind of addressed the "psyche" of America above. What we differ in is that you basically say we have no choice but to let our environment affect our neurochemistry. You seem to say "The stress that modern society places on us does cause chemical imbalances in the brain." I say you are 100% right. I take it a step further and say we can alter our lifestyle into a healthy one instead of just popping a pill. Once again in extreme cases medication is absolutly the way to go. If someone is going to harm themself or others then by all means, give them a crutch.

- I remember getting my EffexorXR the first day and ripping it open to read the ins and outs of it. The first thing I opened was a large sheet of paper folded like a map with tons of fine print on it. The info on the fine print ranged from "how to use EffexorXR" to "the negative side effects of EffexorXR". I clearly remember a write up of a study, in that very pamphlet, that basically said when two groups are given a pill to take. One being EffexorXR, the other being a sugar pill, without any other therapy, the improvment between the two groups was negligable. This was not a newspaper trying to get headlines. This was not a magazine exploiting some study for subscriptions. This was packaged with EffexorXR in extremely fine print.





Overall I think humanity is terrible at doing, or even knowing, what is good for them. People dont recognize what truly makes them happy. I think way too many people say "I am doing everything the surronding culture is telling me to do and Im not happy. Give me a pill." The surronding culture doesnt know whats good for anybody.

Doesnt the fact that we get "immune" to certain medication prove that its a crutch? We are not fixing anything if our body is saying "We have relied on this chemical for too long. We arent going to produce enough to get the desired result."

 

[Mari]

H! MJK I think it is good that your are thinking about these things but you need to do a lot more reading and studying regarding some of your arguements. I do not have any specific books to recommend but I would suggest some books on evolution, anthropology, history of humankind, cultural deveopement, medicine through the ages, native culture. Dr. Baxter seems straightforward and knowledgable so you might want to be a bit more trusting of that. You seem to refer to a crutch as necessarily a bad thing. I just noticed that my son's crutches from when he had a broken ankle are still lying on his cupboard floor. I wonder if he was supposed to return them? He had no trouble accepting crutches when he needed them to help him walk but when he needed 'crutches' to help him through his depression he refused. Why? I have to go now but I think that question has already been well answered by many people on this forum. :heart: Mari

 

[David Baxter PhD]

The human race has been around for hundreds of thousands of years. We have been "weeding" out any trait that hurts our reproductive chances, through evolution. Medication, antidepressants specifically, have been an EXTREMLY recent development. Thirty years is less than the blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things. We laugh at what "doctors" did to patients in the mental health field a mere 50 years ago. I can only imagine what people in the year 2208 are going to think of our practices today. So to address your first point...No. Medication for this illness is very new to this world.

We already laugh at medical and "psychiatric" practices that existed prior to the development of medications. But what has that to do with the efficacy of the medications we have now? They work and for many/most p[eople they work quite well. The thrust of current phranaceutical research is to make them work better by refining the mode and targets of action.

You are also not addressing depression from an evolutionary perspective. Humans have thrived on this planet in smaller close knit communities with most of our time being spent out doors. Only in the past 100 years have we shifted to a more isolated and stationary lifestyle. Most of us are placing stress on ourselves that have never been felt by our ancestors.

As I said above.

I just read a study that said 10% of US adults have used an anti depressant sometime in their life. You dont think thats a little outrageous? If 1 out of every 10 people naturally had chemical imbalances the human race wouldnt be here as we know it. If a tribe of 10 people has to care for one "depressed" member that entire tribe is doomed. Even if that tribe somehow survives that depressed member holds little to no reproductive value to any of its women. This supports the theory that depression is an aid instead of a disease that only medication can fix.

Nonsense. So 10% have used an antidepressant. I would bet that well over 90% have used an antibiotic or a painkiller of one sort or another. What does that prove? It's a meaningless statistic. And no, I don't think there's anything outrageous about it.

My diabetes and heart disease comment was only there to prove the point that we can do natural and healthy things to prevent any such disorder. Like I said earlier, can you imagine a tribe that is constantly outside and eating the freshest food with the same diabetes and heart disease numbers? Depression is the same way.

Again, what has any of this to do with the efficacy and utility of antidepressants? Who do you see saying that depression is best treated by medication alone? There's no question that the treatment of depression is most effective, both in terms of relieving symptoms and in preventing further recurrences, by a combination of medication, psychotherapy, and life-style changes. You're arguing against a straw man, a viewpoint no one is espousing. And, to be blunt, I find such debates tiresome.

I kind of addressed the "psyche" of America above. What we differ in is that you basically say we have no choice but to let our environment affect our neurochemistry. You seem to say "The stress that modern society places on us does cause chemical imbalances in the brain." I say you are 100% right. I take it a step further and say we can alter our lifestyle into a healthy one instead of just popping a pill. Once again in extreme cases medication is absolutly the way to go. If someone is going to harm themself or others then by all means, give them a crutch.

1. Please read the Forum Rules - carefully.

2. The lifestyle points you make I have no issue with. However, you are simply wrong about medications for those who suffer from depression, anxiety disorders, etc. First, medication does not need to be and should not be restricted to "extreme cases". Second, medication is NOT a "crutch".

I remember getting my EffexorXR the first day and ripping it open to read the ins and outs of it. The first thing I opened was a large sheet of paper folded like a map with tons of fine print on it. The info on the fine print ranged from "how to use EffexorXR" to "the negative side effects of EffexorXR".

So? These are a list of possible side-effects, not probable. Millions of people have taken the medication with no side-effects at all. Have you ever looked at the warnings for aspirin? or cold tablets?

I clearly remember a write up of a study, in that very pamphlet, that basically said when two groups are given a pill to take. One being EffexorXR, the other being a sugar pill, without any other therapy, the improvment between the two groups was negligable. This was not a newspaper trying to get headlines. This was not a magazine exploiting some study for subscriptions. This was packaged with EffexorXR in extremely fine print.

Uh-huh. Show me the study and I'll tell you what's wrong with it. A little information can be a dangerous thing, especially if not viewed with a critical eye.

I think way too many people say "I am doing everything the surronding culture is telling me to do and Im not happy. Give me a pill." The surronding culture doesnt know whats good for anybody.

That doesn't mean that physicians are handing out that "pill" indiscriminately. Or that physicians don't know what works and what doesn't.

Doesnt the fact that we get "immune" to certain medication prove that its a crutch? We are not fixing anything if our body is saying "We have relied on this chemical for too long. We arent going to produce enough to get the desired result."

No.

 

[lallieth]

Hi MJK

Here is the bottom line.If you do not want to use a medication to help you in fighting depression,that's fine,that is your choice.I do agree that we need to take care of ourselves better,as far as our physical health and that being physically healthy can help our mental health.

However,please do not sit in judgement of those that take medications as an aid to battle their mental illness.It is a very personal choice and when you make statements such as medication being a "crutch" you are insulting another's person right to choose what is best for them.

Many of us have struggled with the decision to take medication,and after doing much soul searching,we have come to the conclusion that medication is the best way to go..for us.

You have not had enough experience in taking medication to make an informed decision as to how well it works for other's

Reading studies and doing research is all well and good,but in the final analysis,those of us that have been on meds for a long period of time,know first hand how it can help,we don't need a study to tell us that we have been given our lives back.

Do not judge until you have walked a mile in my moccasins

 

[MaynardJamesKeenan]

First of all, I want to clear this up. In high school all my friends called me the devlis advocate because I would debate anything that could be debated regardless of how I felt about the subject. If Im sounding insensitive I dont mean to be. I think I just naturally form arguments that get people riled up. I like hearing the other side of the story so "attacking" others, even if its not sincere, seems to bring it about most often. Long story short. Im not nearly as anti antidepressant as it seems.

One thing I will admit is that Im not addressing how effective current medication can be. If it works for a large percentage of the population then God bless it.

I think a few things just worry me concerning the topic.

1) From my point of view, our current society seems to want the "quick fix" more than anything. I wonder how many people taking anti depressants say "Im not happy. I tried to fix it. Give me a pill."?

2) Lets say your 30 years old and are depressed. You turn to antidepressants to "fix" your depression. Do you rely on pills for the next 60 years of your life? I just dont see an exit strategy that I like.

3) It seems like for every "illness" there is a healthy way to deal with it. Dont want to be obese? Eat right and excersize. Dont want Alzheimers? Work your brain out. Dont want lung caner? Stay away from cigarette smoke. Of course in a perfect world obesity, alzheimers, and lung cancer would still exist, albeit in smaller numbers. Some people are just genetically predisposed to certain illnesses. For these people surgery and medication would still be needed. Why do we treat depression any differently?

 

[braveheart]

My experience is that anti-depressants don't fix depression, but they help make my life a little more bearable as I face myself and overcome the demons of my past through therapy.

I am 38 years old, and have been depressed and anxious since I was very young. The reason? Abuse, bullying and emotional neglect.
Before therapy and medication I was a wreck, basically. Now I am starting to form a sense of self.

If you look a bit deeper into the lives of all the people prescribed anti-depressants in the world, you would probably find that there's more to this depression thing than meets your eye at first scientific look. We are human beings who are hurt. Why leave us screaming when there is something that can bring relief?

In times past I would have been locked up forever, like my father threatened to do to me when I was upset when I was young. But no, I have a job, and I am working intensely in therapy to gain some sense of self. The self that was shattered over and over again when I was growing up. Living in the world is painful for me, and medication seems to help make it feel a little bit safer for me as I work my way through what I need to work through in therapy.

 

[lallieth]

HI MJK

I don't think that there should be a debate as to why people choose to use medications.Personal decisions are not open for debate,that is why they are called "personal decisions"

If one were to debate the good and bad and the ugly of medications for mental illness,it would never be resolved because there are no grey areas,only black and white..you are either in the "for" camp or the "against" camp.

While I respect someone's opinion's about medication,unless they have personal experience with it,I have to assume their arguments against meds, are taken from various studies and from the experience of someone else.

Mental illness cannot be boxed up with illness,such as obesity or lung cancer.These are physical ailment's caused by external factors only,whereas mental illness is caused by physical and emotional internal AND external factors and simply cannot be wished away,or "cured" by eating better or getting enough exercise.

If I had a choice to watch my mother take an anti-depressant every day for the rest of her life,to give her back her quality of life,versus sitting in a state of severe depression day in and day out,then of course I would advise her to take the medication.

For some it literally does mean the choice between life and death,and how can that be debated successfully?

 

[ladylore]

I agree Braveheart and Lallieth. Medication helps balance out the brain chemistry so that people can do the work and given a fighting chance. This simply to me is about saving peoples lives and give people back a quality of life they deserve and want for themselves. There is no need to suffer when something can be done about it.

 

[MaynardJamesKeenan]

If I had a choice to watch my mother take an anti-depressant every day for the rest of her life,to give her back her quality of life,versus sitting in a state of severe depression day in and day out,then of course I would advise her to take the medication.

Who put it in your head that there are only two options?

 

[Halo]

Mental illness cannot be boxed up with illness,such as obesity or lung cancer.These are physical ailment's caused by external factors only,whereas mental illness is caused by physical and emotional internal AND external factors and simply cannot be wished away,or "cured" by eating better or getting enough exercise.

While I agree with most of your post above, I do not agree with the above statement in which you say that obesity and lung cancer are caused by external factors only. These illnesses can be caused by internal factors including genetics or an eating disorder which can cause obesity and lung cancer from someone who has never smoked. I think that any illness can have external factors to it but some time there is a predisposition to a particular illness or genetics can play a part. I say this because because a friend of mine died at the age of 17 with lung cancer having never smoked nor was around second hand smoke in her life. I therefore don't think that the illnesses that are talked about can be purely external factors.

Who put it in your head that there are only two options?

I know that your question was not directed at me but I feel compelled to answer.

If someone is severely depressed what other options are there besides medication to help them get well? Please do not say "get out and get fresh air", eat healthy or exercise. While all those are good things to try and do, if a person is severely depressed just getting out of bed in the morning can be a challenge let alone trying to do anything else.

What other options were you thinking if it is not medication?