How to Know When I'm Ready to Date?

[TheGrayHat]

I've been struggling with this for a while now. I feel like I have a lot to offer a relationship, but I don't know if it's a good idea. I've been single for about two years now while I've been trying to better myself. But, I don't have a job, I'm in heavy duty therapy for PTSD, and I still live with my mom.. though if it's more for her than me is another question.

Just so I don't sound too hard on myself, I have a lot of excellent qualities too. For example, I'm intelligent, I'm excellent at reading and understanding people, when I'm not depressed I exercise regularly, I've learned how to be much more positive, even when depressed.

I think the main reason I ask, is because I feel like I won't be taken seriously by women unless I have my life together. But, I honestly don't know how long that will take. I'm also struggling to figure out if my desire to date is because I feel like I "need" a relationship or if it's a healthy desire. If it's an unhealthy "need", how long do I need to be single before I can be sure my desire is healthy?

If you have time, please weigh in. Any advice is much appreciated.

 

[rdw]

My thought, for what it's worth, would be to continue to heal yourself before you start on a romantic relationship. You don't mention friends but my suggestion would be to work on the relationships with your friends and work your way towards dating and romantic relationships.

 

[forgetmenot]

I too think when you feel you are stable in your mental health then a relationship has a chance of working and for now hang out with a group of friends and not get so serious if it is meant to be more then friendship then it will be

 

[PrincessX]

Hello GrayHat, welcome from me too I felt so sad reading your story, and at the same time I admire your strength and courage.
I think human relationships at all levels can exist regardless of whether you have a job or live with you mom and so on. We all need a human touch, even if it is just a friendship to begin with. How ready you are for a romantic relationship might be a question to discuss with your therapist. I think it is totally normal to ask yourself this and it might be even a sign that you are getting better and starting to overcome the past trauma. What about having a partner in life or marrying? All these are totally normal questions that might be answered as you heal and your life evolves. Not all people you will meet (including women) will have all of their life together at any given time. We all have our wounds and pains and weaknesses. Do not be too hard on yourself, keep working on improving you self-esteem and feeling of inner worth.
The need for love and belonging is a basic human need that comes after safety and physiological needs on the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Love and belonging are important grounds in all religious and spiritual teachings. I am not talking necessarily about sexual love or love only between a man and a woman. Although there is nothing wrong in targeting a loving relationship, all research points out the benefits of healthy relationship on one's well-being. All these are important topics that you might want to explore in therapy and prepare yourself for real life situations. I wish you luck and courage! A friend of mine told me once "Progress is not a straight line". I am not sure why but this quote helps me during hard times. Just remembering that every little step in the right direction matters, every little accomplishment is a big accomplishment that leads to more and more endeavoars. And even some regression at times does not mean that you failed, it just means to keep trying. Good luck my friend!

 

[TheGrayHat]

Thank you PrincessX. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your response.. I've been through a lot and the pain at times is crippling, but the knowledge that there are people out in the world who genuinely care about one another gives me a lot of hope. I love that I have a place where I can share my true feelings and feel accepted. Growing up I've been taught that the most important quality for a man is to be stoic. So, sharing my concerns is new..

I've actually asked my old therapist (I'm in the process of meeting a new one Monday) this question and I'm constantly met with an answer like, "Do you feel ready?". Which honestly doesn't feel like an answer at all. I feel caught between my desire to experience a closeness with another person that I've never had and my desire to make sure I'm approaching my recovery in such a way, so as to optimize my chance of success.

Something I've been using throughout my recovery that is similar to your quote about progress is, "Two steps forward and one step back.". Since I started thinking in those terms, I've found this all a lot easier to cope with. Thank you for sharing that quote with me.

I can't express enough how much I appreciate and value the responses I've been receiving from everyone. I want you to know that I seriously think about everything each of you says.

 

[Peter]

Hello TheGrayHat.

... I feel caught between my desire to experience a closeness with another person that I've never had and my desire to make sure I'm approaching my recovery in such a way, so as to optimize my chance of success.

Both desires, to experience an unknown closeness with another person, and to succeed in such an experience, are specific outcomes. Meaning, the chances of them being fulfilled are limited.
Having expectations is like having an investment. All investments are expected to provide a return/interest. Without a return, or a failed investment, loss and grief will be experienced.
Unmet expectations are a source of resentment, anger, self-reproach and all sorts of negative emotions.
I believe it is best to let go of any expectations, or at least be prepared to let go of them as soon as they do not eventuate.

I agree with above posts about making friends first before going any deeper. And if it does go deeper, it will most likely happen unexpectedly - a no loss situation.

My closest, and most deepest relationship, happened after we were friends for about a year. Now my love is also my best friend. I cannot imagine having it any other way.

 

[PrincessX]

Hello Peter, I read aloud your reply, it provides a good perspective. However, as a woman or female reader I perceive things slightly different than you do. I have had a couple of good and deep relationships with the opposite gender and none of them started with pure friendship. In fact, I personally would find it frustrating if I am friends with a man for a year and he shows no sexual interest in me during this time. Friendship between a man and a woman, hmm interesting topic. I never experienced this phenomena, even when I wanted to. I always felt this "spike" at the beginning, the one that tells me, that yes, I am interested, I am attracted and I want to get to know this man.
Having said that, I guess people are different. I guess some relationships start with a good friendship, but not all of them are meant to start this way.
There is nothing wrong in desires. From TheGrayHat quote that he feels caught in between both desires (recovery and close relationship) it is clear he might not be fully ready at this point to act on his desire to experience a closeness with another person. A desire to me does not equate an expectation. It translates more into an emotion or inner need. You remind me of a psychologist I spoke with some time ago. He pointed out all the points "against" a dream that I have (it is not even a relationship dream). Well, to be honest with you, I am standing here now one year later thinking that all evidence to this point prooves that I should have pursued my dream. Hopes are not equivalent to expectations as well. We just have to ensure we are careful and respectful of our own feelings, as well as able to make neccessary changes, to adapt to reality. I hope I make sense with this message.

 

[Peter]

Hello Peter, I read aloud your reply, it provides a good perspective. However, as a woman or female reader I perceive things slightly different than you do. I have had a couple of good and deep relationships with the opposite gender and none of them started with pure friendship. In fact, I personally would find it frustrating if I am friends with a man for a year and he shows no sexual interest in me during this time. Friendship between a man and a woman, hmm interesting topic. I never experienced this phenomena, even when I wanted to. I always felt this "spike" at the beginning, the one that tells me, that yes, I am interested, I am attracted and I want to get to know this man.
Having said that, I guess people are different. I guess some relationships start with a good friendship, but not all of them are meant to start this way.
There is nothing wrong in desires. From TheGrayHat quote that he feels caught in between both desires (recovery and close relationship) it is clear he might not be fully ready at this point to act on his desire to experience a closeness with another person. A desire to me does not equate an expectation. It translates more into an emotion or inner need. You remind me of a psychologist I spoke with some time ago. He pointed out all the points "against" a dream that I have (it is not even a relationship dream). Well, to be honest with you, I am standing here now one year later thinking that all evidence to this point prooves that I should have pursued my dream. Hopes are not equivalent to expectations as well. We just have to ensure we are careful and respectful of our own feelings, as well as able to make neccessary changes, to adapt to reality. I hope I make sense with this message.

Hello PrincessX.
In regards to desires equating, or not, to an expectation.

My understanding is that a desire is a feeling of wanting something to happen. While expectation is a belief that something will happen.
The difference is between a want and a belief. The transition between a want and a belief is the degree of attainability. Which is much along the lines you have already mentioned.

A desire, no matter how impossible it may seem, has a trace of attainability. Even if we do not yet understand how that could be possible.
We may desire a miracle, because miracles exist/happened in the past, they have a degree of attainability.
A desire without a degree of attainability makes no sense at all. The desire would have no basis to exist.

In the above example where one desires to experience something new and succeed in doing so, they already know it is attainable. In this regard, the desire has become an expectation.
They already believe, if successful, it will happen.

Well, that is how I see it.

 

[Jesse910]

Gray Hat:

You have been provided with more than sufficient advice. Let me just say this, as you are getting your life together and feeling better about yourself, doors will begin to open up for you. No one has it all together. I've been married to my best friend for 20 years and we're still getting it together. In the early days when I was really sick, I was lucky to have my friends who hung in there with me. They gave me the courage to hang on when I truly wanted to give up. I wasn't looking for anyone when I met my husband. I was still healing and had ended a relationship 2 years prior. I, too suffer from PTSD and one caveat, the things that trigger you can occur at any time. Learn to give yourself permission to take each day as it comes. Hopefully, in time, you will be employed, perhaps move away from home, and when you are ready, you will meet someone. In the meantime, friends can be the most awesome folks in the world because if they're worth their weight, they are nonjudgmental, encouraging, they bring out the best in you, and they have your back.

Take care.

 

[joedalio]

There are already many great words of advice here, and I will share my own as well. First, I wouldn't try to force the issue and try to make things happen. I believe you should allow any potential dating situation to happen naturally.

Upon saying that, I would advise not to worry so much about the "when things are right" part. Yes, you want to do all you can to get to know yourself better and prepare yourself for the right relationship. However, if you wait until everything is right you may be waiting for a long time.

I have wasted too much time in my life waiting until things were just right. I realize that, had I acted sooner despite my limitations, I could have realized some major goals much sooner. I simply advise that if the right dating situation arrives, you may want to consider it even though things may not be perfect at the time. I hope that helps

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Hmmm... I have had many friends who are men, and I am female. It's actually other women I find hard to open up to (in real life, that is; on the internet there is sufficient space and lack of contact to feel "safe").

My husband is also my very best friend ever. We've been through a lot together. And, although I had yearnings for companionship, the strangest thing was, I wasn't even looking to get connected, I was just doing my thing and I met him. Mind you, I met him online in a chat forum from long ago, before worldwideweb was changed to www in the website addresses! lol

Before then I tried blind dates through an automated system. They were okay, and I even ended up friends with a few of the men I met. However, none really "fit" for various reasons. I just wanted to "put myself out there," if you will. I've also met men at bars, parties, introduced from other friends, etc...

I agree, it's important to learn to accept and like yourself, and feel comfortable being on your own first. If you pay attention to your self, and you feel some kind of emptiness, you might want to understand what is missing to make you feel whole... I've been in the unfortunate state of mind in the past, where I felt I had to be fulfilled by someone else. I felt I had to please, had to bend over backward, just to "keep" someone. The fear of being alone was so great, I flitted from one relationship (where the fella I dated would break up with me, inevitably) to another. I was never in a relationship with more than one man, but after a year or several months, the relationship would end. I think I was too needy, to the point where, to a healthy male, I was somewhat annoying and smothering. Whereas, to an unhealthy dominating male, it would be like a flashing neon sign saying "Use Me And Abuse Me."

Just saying, it might be better to get out there, and just be yourself with your friends, do your own thing, and usually it's when you aren't looking that someone will find you.

You could also consider doing some group activities, perhaps, in something that you are interested in. For example you could go to a new exhibit/opening at an art gallery, or go to a concert, or take a class (or teach a class), go to a poetry reading, or do one of those Toastmaster courses... Get "out there" and your chances increase. It's nice to have things in common, so find something you like to do that you have fun with, or are confident about.

I am not sure what someone's response would be if I lived with my parents, but you could say the truth: you are just getting back on your feet, and your intention is to eventually get out on your own. Everyone runs into difficulty at some time in their life. People who have been there will empathize with your story/journey, and those who haven't run into adversity yet may be clueless and have difficulty understanding your situation. Don't let this bother you, if you can help it. If people have issues with what you, what you do, how you live, etc, then that is their problem, not yours.

Hope this helps.

 

[TheGrayHat]

Hello Peter, I read aloud your reply, it provides a good perspective. However, as a woman or female reader I perceive things slightly different than you do. I have had a couple of good and deep relationships with the opposite gender and none of them started with pure friendship. In fact, I personally would find it frustrating if I am friends with a man for a year and he shows no sexual interest in me during this time. Friendship between a man and a woman, hmm interesting topic. I never experienced this phenomena, even when I wanted to. I always felt this "spike" at the beginning, the one that tells me, that yes, I am interested, I am attracted and I want to get to know this man.
Having said that, I guess people are different. I guess some relationships start with a good friendship, but not all of them are meant to start this way.
There is nothing wrong in desires. From TheGrayHat quote that he feels caught in between both desires (recovery and close relationship) it is clear he might not be fully ready at this point to act on his desire to experience a closeness with another person. A desire to me does not equate an expectation. It translates more into an emotion or inner need. You remind me of a psychologist I spoke with some time ago. He pointed out all the points "against" a dream that I have (it is not even a relationship dream). Well, to be honest with you, I am standing here now one year later thinking that all evidence to this point prooves that I should have pursued my dream. Hopes are not equivalent to expectations as well. We just have to ensure we are careful and respectful of our own feelings, as well as able to make neccessary changes, to adapt to reality. I hope I make sense with this message.

I'm inclined to agree with you about the friendship thing.. I feel like men have a window to establish their intent. If the woman reciprocates, awesome. If not, it's going to end up platonic relationship (which is fine too!). I suppose it's possible to have romance spark after a time of friendship, but I doubt it's that common.

It was mentioned earlier that I didn't say anything about having friends. Right now, that's actually true. I'm very close with my sister and her husband, but of my two best friends, one passed away and the other moved for work. Presently, I'm struggling with coming to terms with the idea that not every man I meet is secretly being sexually abusive to someone.. That effectively puts a fork in going out and meeting new male friends until I resolve this.

I guess, in a way, I do have expectations. I don't think it's bad to have them though, so long as they're realistic. For example: I do expect that I will succeed in my recovery. I also expect it to continue to be hard, uncomfortable, and make leaps forward, as well as steps back. I expect it to take time and patience.. lots of patience. But, I expect to find success. That, in turn, will make me more successful in my romantic and platonic relationships. I don't expect to be a perfect man, but I expect myself to be able to take care of myself (with help from others when needed) and to be able to be a healthy companion.

I guess what I'm really asking is.. How do I know if a romantic relationship would be an asset at this point in my life?

---------- Post Merged at 03:39 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:32 AM ----------

Gray Hat:

You have been provided with more than sufficient advice. Let me just say this, as you are getting your life together and feeling better about yourself, doors will begin to open up for you. No one has it all together. I've been married to my best friend for 20 years and we're still getting it together. In the early days when I was really sick, I was lucky to have my friends who hung in there with me. They gave me the courage to hang on when I truly wanted to give up. I wasn't looking for anyone when I met my husband. I was still healing and had ended a relationship 2 years prior. I, too suffer from PTSD and one caveat, the things that trigger you can occur at any time. Learn to give yourself permission to take each day as it comes. Hopefully, in time, you will be employed, perhaps move away from home, and when you are ready, you will meet someone. In the meantime, friends can be the most awesome folks in the world because if they're worth their weight, they are nonjudgmental, encouraging, they bring out the best in you, and they have your back.

Take care.

Jesse.. This is very touching and powerful. I really do hope to find friends who are like you describe. It is made more powerful because of the place you're speaking from. I know exactly what you mean about the triggers.. I've been finding that the name of the game is patience. In lieu of friends at the moment, I've been relying on my local mental health group and.. I'm finding a lot of inspiration in this community. For now, that's enough. Thank you for the response.

---------- Post Merged at 03:55 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:39 AM ----------

There are already many great words of advice here, and I will share my own as well. First, I wouldn't try to force the issue and try to make things happen. I believe you should allow any potential dating situation to happen naturally.

Upon saying that, I would advise not to worry so much about the "when things are right" part. Yes, you want to do all you can to get to know yourself better and prepare yourself for the right relationship. However, if you wait until everything is right you may be waiting for a long time.

I have wasted too much time in my life waiting until things were just right. I realize that, had I acted sooner despite my limitations, I could have realized some major goals much sooner. I simply advise that if the right dating situation arrives, you may want to consider it even though things may not be perfect at the time. I hope that helps

Part of me really agrees with you.. I've definitely got enough relationship experience to understand how to maintain it in a healthy way on my end, but I'm worried about the impact my condition would have on one. That being said, if I waited for a few years until everything is "right", it's no guarantee a future relationship would really be better off.

The catch though, is people can wait forever for the right situation to arrive, if they don't play some role in it. For example: In my life right now, I spend all my time either in therapy (where being in touch outside group isn't allowed), or doing my own work at home (in the form of reading help books, browsing the forum, writing). Neither of these presents an awfully great opportunity to for a situation to arrive. I'd have to go out with the goal in the back of my mind of creating opportunities..

Heh, I suppose that kind of makes sense thinking about it more.. Once I'm able to be around people, then go out and be receptive to opportunities. That.. sits well with me. I guess I shouldn't be afraid of my condition ruining my hypothetical relationships, ha ha. Not to mention, if things aren't going well, it's not like I'm unable to re-evaluate my decision. That gives me some things to think about.. Thanks joedalio.

---------- Post Merged at 04:12 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:55 AM ----------

I agree, it's important to learn to accept and like yourself, and feel comfortable being on your own first. If you pay attention to your self, and you feel some kind of emptiness, you might want to understand what is missing to make you feel whole...

I'm with you 100% on that. I had a miserable codependent relationship once and it really set me back. Back then, I believed I needed someone to fill that void. I know better now.. I suppose that's why I'm working so hard on myself right now. I'm struggling to understand the difference between needing a relationship and wanting one to lead a more fulfilling life. Is there some kind of guideline for how long you should be single and happy before desiring a relationship is a want and not a need?

You could also consider doing some group activities, perhaps, in something that you are interested in. For example you could go to a new exhibit/opening at an art gallery, or go to a concert, or take a class (or teach a class), go to a poetry reading, or do one of those Toastmaster courses... Get "out there" and your chances increase. It's nice to have things in common, so find something you like to do that you have fun with, or are confident about.

That's an excellent idea and I will totally look at what's available once I'm able.

I am not sure what someone's response would be if I lived with my parents, but you could say the truth: you are just getting back on your feet, and your intention is to eventually get out on your own. Everyone runs into difficulty at some time in their life. People who have been there will empathize with your story/journey, and those who haven't run into adversity yet may be clueless and have difficulty understanding your situation. Don't let this bother you, if you can help it. If people have issues with what you, what you do, how you live, etc, then that is their problem, not yours.

You're right that some awesome women out there would be able to empathise with my situation, while others might be clueless. I don't think it would bother me if they couldn't understand. I'd want a woman who has a lot of empathy, like I do. But, I don't know if it's realistic to expect to find a woman who's willing to accept my situation as it is now. That being said, I'm no psychic. All I can really do is see.

Thank you for your response and for sharing some of your story with me. I appreciate that.

 

[PrincessX]

Hello PrincessX.

A desire, no matter how impossible it may seem, has a trace of attainability. Even if we do not yet understand how that could be possible.
We may desire a miracle, because miracles exist/happened in the past, they have a degree of attainability.
A desire without a degree of attainability makes no sense at all. The desire would have no basis to exist.

In the above example where one desires to experience something new and succeed in doing so, they already know it is attainable. In this regard, the desire has become an expectation.
They already believe, if successful, it will happen.

Well, that is how I see it.

Peter, thank you for providing clarity. I totally understand how unrealistic expectations might lead one to suffering. Letting go of expectations kind of goes along with the idea of emptying one's head of associations, prejudice, unneeded thoughts and living in the present, experiencing the reality, the truth of the moment.
I guess, what I wanted to ask would be, how do we know if an expectation is realistic if we do not have enough belief to test it in reality?

We can use external paradigms and evidence from all sources of information available to us, although we would never be able to analyze absolutely all evidence, due to our human limitations. In this sense, our decisions will never be perfectly right, because we do not even have enough capacity to evaluate all the information available out there. We can also draw upon our own past experiences, our individual reactions to past events.

The question is, how does one work towards achieving goals without a belief /expectation that they are attainable? In this sense, I guess a romantic relationship presents itself as an experience that can not or should not be formulated as a goal on its own, and therefore should not be based on expectations? I agree that one particular relationship (i.e. John should be dating Jane) should not be formulated as a goal with specific outcomes. However, the ability of one to pursue establishing successful relationship/s - should this be also left out of the spectrum of attainable goals? Yes, there will be always a second party involved and to me the beauty of interpersonal relationships is in constant adaptations, constant "feedback", as well as in being strong enough to process negative feedback. How does one know if they can be successful in reality if one never tries? I agree that going slowly is the best way to go. But, as I said not all relationships start as friendships and that is the truth.

---------- Post Merged at 10:39 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:31 AM ----------

In reply to my own post, I believe decisions should be made based on personal expertise, best available evidence and individual preferences. To me the hardest element is the individual. How to figure out preferences in constantly evolving realities.

 

[Peter]

Hello Process X.

Peter, thank you for providing clarity. I totally understand how unrealistic expectations might lead one to suffering. Letting go of expectations kind of goes along with the idea of emptying one's head of associations, prejudice, unneeded thoughts and living in the present, experiencing the reality, the truth of the moment.
I guess, what I wanted to ask would be, how do we know if an expectation is realistic if we do not have enough belief to test it in reality?

We can use external paradigms and evidence from all sources of information available to us, although we would never be able to analyze absolutely all evidence, due to our human limitations. In this sense, our decisions will never be perfectly right, because we do not even have enough capacity to evaluate all the information available out there. We can also draw upon our own past experiences, our individual reactions to past events.

(My underlining) Yes, that is basically true.

The question is, how does one work towards achieving goals without a belief /expectation that they are attainable? In this sense, I guess a romantic relationship presents itself as an experience that can not or should not be formulated as a goal on its own, and therefore should not be based on expectations? I agree that one particular relationship (i.e. John should be dating Jane) should not be formulated as a goal with specific outcomes. However, the ability of one to pursue establishing successful relationship/s - should this be also left out of the spectrum of attainable goals? Yes, there will be always a second party involved and to me the beauty of interpersonal relationships is in constant adaptations, constant "feedback", as well as in being strong enough to process negative feedback. How does one know if they can be successful in reality if one never tries? I agree that going slowly is the best way to go. But, as I said not all relationships start as friendships and that is the truth.

In my opinion, most people have expectations within a relationship. Whenever these expectations are not seen to be met, their self-esteem (ego-energy) feels threatened. Most blame the other, or self, for their decreased self-esteem (humility). Most retaliate in terms of trying to regain what they have lost (self-respect, or ego-validity). Unmet expectations causes one to feel invalid in one way or another. An extreme example is heard when someone says: "If you loved me you would ...." In other words, they do not feel loved because of unmet expectations.

I believe, with relationships, most people live together under conditional expectations of each other. Their love for each other suffers, because it too becomes conditional.
Basically, each person believes they have a right to claim the other for themselves. The other, in a strange way, becomes their slave. They become a slave to their expectations.
In most relationships, this is subtle, where in others it is quite evident. The relationship is more of an agreement to act in certain was to appease each other (co-dependency).

The current accepted way to break up co-dependencies is to aim for a relationship that is inter-dependent (both co-dependency and independence).

However, there is an alternative understanding which requires the awareness that nobody has the right to claim another human being for themselves.

This awareness dissolves expectations in any relationship. It also places total responsibility of our own thoughts and actions. For some, who do not live this way, may see such self-responsibility as scary. For those who are aware of this have a large degree of freedom. If they did gather subtle expectations, and they became unmet, they will soon realize their ego involvement, and then let go of it.

The problem is pride/ego, a fear-based energy within us. Humility (the quieting of or ego) is the remedy. It is about another awareness, that we are okay regardless of other people, places, things, and situations. Some may call this trust/faith. I prefer to call this a truth.

In addition, most people believe that their experience of love is based on their expectations from another person to provide evidence of loving. Without that conditional love they will not feel okay (loved). Unconditional love is about expressing the love that is already inside of us. In that expression we are already complete and fulfilled, and it came from within. The love in us radiates outwards. Where conditional love is under tension and our energies collapse within us, depression is an extreme example.

We can love others without expectations. The others may not love us, but that does not effect us. As I have told my partner "I love you and there is nothing you can do about it", and she understood.

 

[PrincessX]

Dear Peter, thank you for your reply. I struggle a lot with the concepts you discussed, as I am currently in a co-dependent relationship. You are very resourceful and consice. Thank you for taking the time to reply to folks like us. On a funny note, I like how you called me Process X., it made my day.
Yours truly
Process X. :lol:

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

I'm with you 100% on that. I had a miserable codependent relationship once and it really set me back. Back then, I believed I needed someone to fill that void. I know better now.. I suppose that's why I'm working so hard on myself right now. I'm struggling to understand the difference between needing a relationship and wanting one to lead a more fulfilling life. Is there some kind of guideline for how long you should be single and happy before desiring a relationship is a want and not a need?

I feel ya. Been miserable there, done that and learned from it. Sort of. Later. You know, how hindsight is! ^_^