Actually, I took the NLP practitioner course and hold the Practitioner Certificate. However, I never did the hypnosis courses. I found NLP to be very helpful to me. It's helped me reconstruct my thinking...and that's pretty much the idea -- to help people change their cognitive thoughts and help them focus on goals. I also found it to be very theraputic...albeit a bit uncomfortable..which is understandable. 
I agree. I got introduced to NLP by studying seduction and attraction and since then I have found that the applications for it far exceed the seduction and attraction arena.
One of the thinks that I like best that I read about in a book relating to erotic talk was the story of how Richard Bandler and John Grinder used Erickson's techniques against him when they were first starting out.
According to the story Erickson was considered a very grumpy old man and really did not want to discuss with them anything that he knew, but through the use of their languaging they managed to persuade Erickson into meeting with them and teaching them what he knew.
Another thing that I really like as to how Bandler once used it to help a woman that had a phobia of elevators and within a matter of about 10 minutes through the use of his languaging he was able to uninstall the phobia from her, but at the same time he theorized that if NLP was to be truly process orientated, then he should also be able to install a phobia as well.
Since that time I have been trying to learn as to how to apply it to not only my interpersonal relationships, but also to business as well. One of the books that I have is called 'Hypnotic Writing' writen by Joe Vitale and in it he talks about how you can use it to help bring in business and to persuade your prospects into wanting to buy what you are selling.
In a way it is kind of like the Pavlov's Dog experiment that Pavlov did a long time ago.
rdonovan1 added 4 Minutes and 9 Seconds later...
Unfortunately however I have not been very successful at implementing it and the patterns of Milton Erickson both in business, but to get people to quit judging me and blaming me for their own mistakes.
I am however hoping to find ways in which to use it better so that my life is easier and so that people like my parents will stop trying to blame me for their own mistakes and hopefully in the process I can motivate them into wanting to take positive action with their lives.
One of the thinks that I like best that I read about in a book relating to erotic talk was the story of how Richard Bandler and John Grinder used Erickson's techniques against him when they were first starting out.
According to the story Erickson was considered a very grumpy old man and really did not want to discuss with them anything that he knew, but through the use of their languaging they managed to persuade Erickson into meeting with them and teaching them what he knew.
Another thing that I really like as to how Bandler once used it to help a woman that had a phobia of elevators and within a matter of about 10 minutes through the use of his languaging he was able to uninstall the phobia from her, but at the same time he theorized that if NLP was to be truly process orientated, then he should also be able to install a phobia as well.
Since that time I have been trying to learn as to how to apply it to not only my interpersonal relationships, but also to business as well. One of the books that I have is called 'Hypnotic Writing' writen by Joe Vitale and in it he talks about how you can use it to help bring in business and to persuade your prospects into wanting to buy what you are selling.
In a way it is kind of like the Pavlov's Dog experiment that Pavlov did a long time ago.
rdonovan1 added 4 Minutes and 9 Seconds later...
Unfortunately however I have not been very successful at implementing it and the patterns of Milton Erickson both in business, but to get people to quit judging me and blaming me for their own mistakes.
I am however hoping to find ways in which to use it better so that my life is easier and so that people like my parents will stop trying to blame me for their own mistakes and hopefully in the process I can motivate them into wanting to take positive action with their lives.
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Hmm...I'm not convinced that NLP works as well on others as it does on your own person. I mean that is the basic premise of Neurolinguistic Programming is that it's a set of practices (or tools) that help you connect your thinking, your sensory perception, and body to achieve goals and communicate better with others.
NLP is based on models of excellence. So, if we were to take...say...Tiger Woods and watched how he hit the ball...then asked him what he thought, what he envisioned, where he aimed, and so on...we'd build a model of excellence. Then using this model, using the tips and tricks that we learned from Tiger Woods, we'd apply all of them to ourselves....think like him, aim where he'd aim, and swing the golf club the way he does...ideally, we'd end up golfing like him. That's what NLP is about.
Some say that it can be used on others, but I don't believe that's NLP. I think when we use NLP to manipulate others it's just that: manipulation. I think the golden rule still applies in NLP just as it does in psychology: you can't change other people or their perceptions, you can only change yourself, your actions, your behavior, your thoughts, and your focus.
NLP is based on models of excellence. So, if we were to take...say...Tiger Woods and watched how he hit the ball...then asked him what he thought, what he envisioned, where he aimed, and so on...we'd build a model of excellence. Then using this model, using the tips and tricks that we learned from Tiger Woods, we'd apply all of them to ourselves....think like him, aim where he'd aim, and swing the golf club the way he does...ideally, we'd end up golfing like him. That's what NLP is about.
Some say that it can be used on others, but I don't believe that's NLP. I think when we use NLP to manipulate others it's just that: manipulation. I think the golden rule still applies in NLP just as it does in psychology: you can't change other people or their perceptions, you can only change yourself, your actions, your behavior, your thoughts, and your focus.
Hi Rdonovan,
I'm sneaking in here only because this sentence resonated with me tonight. Sometimes, we have to intrinsically be ok with who we are, irrespective of others' perceptions. Our parents mean well but they're too close, sometimes, to evaluate who we are as human beings.
So, we sometimes have to rely on our own inner dialogue to know who we are and what we offer this life. It's ok to disagree with our parents.
I won't pretend to really understand the most novel psychological discourse. For the time being, for me at least, I relish the thought that sometimes, you have to accept that people will judge you whether you agree or not. That's part of human nature. As long as you are ok with yourself and know "who you are" I think the rest is ok...
Jazzey
Here's a list of books on NLP history, NLP, and Ericksonian Hypnosis.
books on the history of nlp
Andreas, Steve. NLP: The New Technology of Achievement, 1996.
Bandler, Richard, et.al. Using Your Brain--For a Change, 1985.
Bandler, Richard and John Grinder. The Structure of Magic. Vol I., 1975.
Bandler, Richard and John Grinder. The Structure of Magic. Vol II., 1976.
Bandler, Richard, and John Grinder. Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton Erickson, M.D., Vol. I, 1977.
Bandler, Richard, and John Grinder. Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton Erickson, M.D., Vol. II, 1978.
Bateson, Gregory. Steps to an Ecology of Mind, 1972.
DeLozier, Judith and John Grinder. Turtles All the Way Down: Prerequisites to Personal Genius, 1987.
Dilts, Robert. Modeling With Nlp. 1998.
Dilts, Robert et.al., Neurolinguistic Programming, 1979.
Grinder, John and Carmen Bostic St.Clair, Whispering in the Wind, 2001.
books on nlp and ericksonian hypnosis
Boothman, Nicholas. How to Connect In Business In 90 Seconds or Less: Use Rapport by Design to Become More Effective, and Make the Best of Every Business Relationship, 2002.
Boothman, Nicholas. How to Make People Like You In 90 Seconds Or Less, 2000.
Charvet, Shelle Rose. Words That Change Minds: Mastering the Language of Influence, 1997.
Harris, Carol. The Elements of NLP, 1998.
McDermott, Ian and Wendy Jago, The Nlp Coach: A Comprehensive Guide to Personal Well-Being & Professional Success, 2003.
O’Connor, Joseph. Leading with NLP: Neuro Linguistic Programming/Essential Leadership Skills for Influencing and Managing People, 1998.
Parkin, Margaret. Tales for Coaching: Using Stories and Metaphors with Individuals and Small Groups, 2002.
Rosen, Sidney. My Voice Will Go with You: The Teaching Tales of Milton H. Erickson., 1982.
books on the history of nlp
Andreas, Steve. NLP: The New Technology of Achievement, 1996.
Bandler, Richard, et.al. Using Your Brain--For a Change, 1985.
Bandler, Richard and John Grinder. The Structure of Magic. Vol I., 1975.
Bandler, Richard and John Grinder. The Structure of Magic. Vol II., 1976.
Bandler, Richard, and John Grinder. Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton Erickson, M.D., Vol. I, 1977.
Bandler, Richard, and John Grinder. Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton Erickson, M.D., Vol. II, 1978.
Bateson, Gregory. Steps to an Ecology of Mind, 1972.
DeLozier, Judith and John Grinder. Turtles All the Way Down: Prerequisites to Personal Genius, 1987.
Dilts, Robert. Modeling With Nlp. 1998.
Dilts, Robert et.al., Neurolinguistic Programming, 1979.
Grinder, John and Carmen Bostic St.Clair, Whispering in the Wind, 2001.
books on nlp and ericksonian hypnosis
Boothman, Nicholas. How to Connect In Business In 90 Seconds or Less: Use Rapport by Design to Become More Effective, and Make the Best of Every Business Relationship, 2002.
Boothman, Nicholas. How to Make People Like You In 90 Seconds Or Less, 2000.
Charvet, Shelle Rose. Words That Change Minds: Mastering the Language of Influence, 1997.
Harris, Carol. The Elements of NLP, 1998.
McDermott, Ian and Wendy Jago, The Nlp Coach: A Comprehensive Guide to Personal Well-Being & Professional Success, 2003.
O’Connor, Joseph. Leading with NLP: Neuro Linguistic Programming/Essential Leadership Skills for Influencing and Managing People, 1998.
Parkin, Margaret. Tales for Coaching: Using Stories and Metaphors with Individuals and Small Groups, 2002.
Rosen, Sidney. My Voice Will Go with You: The Teaching Tales of Milton H. Erickson., 1982.
I can't say that I fully understand it all, but I do know that influencing and persuading others with can be done. One of the best known people that was really good at it was Dr. Milton Erickson and that is where much of NLP comes from.
I don't know if you have ever studied any of Dr. Erickson's works, but he was pretty influential. He was a psychiatrist and because he really understood the way that the human mind really worked he know how to create rapport with you right down to your breathing and if he wanted to he could install hypnotic commands and suggestions to the point where you would find yourself out in the middle of the desert looking for a Bojum Tree and not even know why you are doing it.
I'm not sure, but I am pretty sure that is where the Swish pattern came from.
Much of what I have learned about it has to do with creating rapport with someone and then getting them to go inside themselves to find the answers by asking them questions.
Bandler kind of talks about it in his book Persuasion Engineering, but that is not the only book that he has written on the subject. Other books that he has written are 'Using your brain for a change', 'Magic in action', 'Frogs into princes', 'Transformations', and 'The structure of magic' just to name a few.
So far I have only had the time to read 'Using your brain for a change' which I thought was really interesting because in that book he described an incident in which a group of healthy, happy college students decided to check themselves into a psychiatric hospital as part of an experiment and accoding to the book all of them had problems getting out because they were all diagnosed as having severe psychological problems.
I personally disagree with that because we all tend to do things that may not make much sense, but are based upon basic human nature.
I have tried to explain this to my parents, especially my mother but for some reason she rejects it totally and I personally think that is funny because NLP is based upon cognitive and behavioral psychology as well as Ericksonian Hypnosis.
rdonovan1 added 2 Minutes and 20 Seconds later...
Those are all really good books and I have most of them. One of the ones that you left out though was Sleight of Mouth by Robert Dilts. Perhaps it is in your list under another name.
I don't know if you have ever studied any of Dr. Erickson's works, but he was pretty influential. He was a psychiatrist and because he really understood the way that the human mind really worked he know how to create rapport with you right down to your breathing and if he wanted to he could install hypnotic commands and suggestions to the point where you would find yourself out in the middle of the desert looking for a Bojum Tree and not even know why you are doing it.
I'm not sure, but I am pretty sure that is where the Swish pattern came from.
Much of what I have learned about it has to do with creating rapport with someone and then getting them to go inside themselves to find the answers by asking them questions.
Bandler kind of talks about it in his book Persuasion Engineering, but that is not the only book that he has written on the subject. Other books that he has written are 'Using your brain for a change', 'Magic in action', 'Frogs into princes', 'Transformations', and 'The structure of magic' just to name a few.
So far I have only had the time to read 'Using your brain for a change' which I thought was really interesting because in that book he described an incident in which a group of healthy, happy college students decided to check themselves into a psychiatric hospital as part of an experiment and accoding to the book all of them had problems getting out because they were all diagnosed as having severe psychological problems.
I personally disagree with that because we all tend to do things that may not make much sense, but are based upon basic human nature.
I have tried to explain this to my parents, especially my mother but for some reason she rejects it totally and I personally think that is funny because NLP is based upon cognitive and behavioral psychology as well as Ericksonian Hypnosis.
rdonovan1 added 2 Minutes and 20 Seconds later...
Those are all really good books and I have most of them. One of the ones that you left out though was Sleight of Mouth by Robert Dilts. Perhaps it is in your list under another name.
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Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H. Erickson, M.D by Richard Bandler
Milton H. Erickson, M.D.: An American Healer (Profiles in Healing series)
The Hypnotic Brain: Hypnotherapy and Social Communication by Peter Brown
Uncommon Therapy: The Psychiatric Techniques of Milton H. Erickson, M.D. by Jay Haley
Practical Magic:: A Translation of Basic Neuro-Linguistic Programming Into Clinical Psychotherapy by Stephen R. Lankton
The Wisdom of Milton H. Erickson: The Complete Volume by Ronald A. Havens
Milton H. Erickson, M.D.: An American Healer (Profiles in Healing series)
The Hypnotic Brain: Hypnotherapy and Social Communication by Peter Brown
Uncommon Therapy: The Psychiatric Techniques of Milton H. Erickson, M.D. by Jay Haley
Practical Magic:: A Translation of Basic Neuro-Linguistic Programming Into Clinical Psychotherapy by Stephen R. Lankton
The Wisdom of Milton H. Erickson: The Complete Volume by Ronald A. Havens
This is very, very true. What I don't understand though is as to how to use that trigger more appropriately.
rdonovan1 added 6 Minutes and 59 Seconds later...
I don't think that I have Uncommon Therapy in my collection, but I do have Phoenix: Therapeutic Patterns of Miltion H. Erickson and of course both of the the books titled Pattersn of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H. Erickson M.D.
I also have 'words that change minds' as well. I also found another good book called 'NLP at work' written by Sue Knight.
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I don't want to dissect your post bit by bit, but there is a lot of misunderstanding in the body of your message.
Erickson did not create NLP. He was one of the people involved in it's birth, but he is not the sole cause or reason. He understood people, he was (despite seeming grumpiness) an empath which enabled him to read people well. That is not a result of hypnosis or some magic. It's just looking to understand people, knowing what makes them tick, knowing how to lead them to themselves. He knew how to make them feel good about themselves and he used their state (and he believed that we're all in some trance or another) to help them achieve that change. His motives were not selfish or manipulative....he genuinely wanted to learn, understand, and help. If you approach world with those goals in mind, there is no doubt in my mind that you may be a catalyst for a positive change. If you approach the world and everyone in it with the goal on how to make them think and do what you want -- you may find short term success, but there is no doubt in my mind that it will be followed by a deep disappointment.
NLP is about changing yourself, how you see, hear, and act and what you aim for in life...not about changing others. Yes, you can influence them...by making others feel good about themselves. EVERYONE likes it when others make them feel good. Again, just common sense, and not some mumbojumbo that "makes" people do what you want them to. Even if you were to somehow manipulate others into doing what you want, it is not a sustainable change. Change yourself...(1) it's easier; (2) less changes to make...because they're HARD; (3) sustainable; (4) long lasting; and (5) enriching. I'm sure I can go on but you get the gist of it.
NLP is not so new anymore but it has been rejected by many. One of the main reasons is that others see it exactly as you do: that it's a manipulation tool. In reality, NLP will only do what you want it to do for you. If you see value in it -- you'll get the value from it. If you don't -- you won't. You can't force it on anyone just like you can't teach a pig to sing...it'll just be a waste of time and annoy the pig.
Lastly...I'm not sure how to say this but....I am not in agreement with what you want to use NLP for. I'm all about letting people be who they want to be...I trust them to make the best decision for themselves. As for me...personally...what is that quote? "I'd rather be hated for who I am then loved for who I am not." Yeah...something like that. So....you now have a long list of books on the subject of interest. I do hope you find what you're looking for. Good luck and all the best, rdonovan1.
Erickson did not create NLP. He was one of the people involved in it's birth, but he is not the sole cause or reason. He understood people, he was (despite seeming grumpiness) an empath which enabled him to read people well. That is not a result of hypnosis or some magic.
It's just looking to understand people, knowing what makes them tick, knowing how to lead them to themselves. He knew how to make them feel good about themselves and he used their state (and he believed that we're all in some trance or another) to help them achieve that change. His motives were not selfish or manipulative....he genuinely wanted to learn, understand, and help. If you approach world with those goals in mind, there is no doubt in my mind that you may be a catalyst for a positive change. If you approach the world and everyone in it with the goal on how to make them think and do what you want -- you may find short term success, but there is no doubt in my mind that it will be followed by a deep disappointment.NLP is about changing yourself, how you see, hear, and act and what you aim for in life...not about changing others. Yes, you can influence them...by making others feel good about themselves. EVERYONE likes it when others make them feel good. Again, just common sense, and not some mumbojumbo that "makes" people do what you want them to. Even if you were to somehow manipulate others into doing what you want, it is not a sustainable change. Change yourself...(1) it's easier; (2) less changes to make...because they're HARD; (3) sustainable; (4) long lasting; and (5) enriching. I'm sure I can go on but you get the gist of it.
NLP is not so new anymore but it has been rejected by many. One of the main reasons is that others see it exactly as you do: that it's a manipulation tool. In reality, NLP will only do what you want it to do for you. If you see value in it -- you'll get the value from it. If you don't -- you won't. You can't force it on anyone just like you can't teach a pig to sing...it'll just be a waste of time and annoy the pig.
Lastly...I'm not sure how to say this but....I am not in agreement with what you want to use NLP for. I'm all about letting people be who they want to be...I trust them to make the best decision for themselves. As for me...personally...what is that quote? "I'd rather be hated for who I am then loved for who I am not." Yeah...something like that. So....you now have a long list of books on the subject of interest. I do hope you find what you're looking for. Good luck and all the best, rdonovan1.
I think that you have a lot of good points there, but I also think that you are missing a few things and that you are misunderstanding my intentions.
My intention is to create better relationships and to increase sales by challenging peoples limiting beliefs in much the same way that Bandler and Erickson were able to do.
Here's one thing to think about. Consider the last time that you got into a disagreement with a friend, parent, sibling, significant other, or even a neighbor or employer and they accused you of doing something that you did not do or they tried to impose their will upon you. How did that make you feel?
With most people their normal reaction is to become defensive and that in turn tends to trigger your own defense mechanisms and before you know it you are in a full fledged yelling match with the other person. Now, if you stop and think about what would happen if you were to ask them as to how they came to their conclusion and as to what evidence they have to back up their claims, then don't you think that would more than likely lead to a more peaceable solution to the problem instead of yelling and screaming.
By exchaning places and role playing with the other person you generally will get a greater insight into what it is like to be them and they in turn get a greater insight into what it is like to be you. That in turn generally will lead to less stereotypes and to better communication and understanding because by doing that you each have the unique experience to understand someone else which in turn and teach you more about yourself.
My intention is to create better relationships and to increase sales by challenging peoples limiting beliefs in much the same way that Bandler and Erickson were able to do.
Here's one thing to think about. Consider the last time that you got into a disagreement with a friend, parent, sibling, significant other, or even a neighbor or employer and they accused you of doing something that you did not do or they tried to impose their will upon you. How did that make you feel?
With most people their normal reaction is to become defensive and that in turn tends to trigger your own defense mechanisms and before you know it you are in a full fledged yelling match with the other person. Now, if you stop and think about what would happen if you were to ask them as to how they came to their conclusion and as to what evidence they have to back up their claims, then don't you think that would more than likely lead to a more peaceable solution to the problem instead of yelling and screaming.
By exchaning places and role playing with the other person you generally will get a greater insight into what it is like to be them and they in turn get a greater insight into what it is like to be you. That in turn generally will lead to less stereotypes and to better communication and understanding because by doing that you each have the unique experience to understand someone else which in turn and teach you more about yourself.
sister-ray
Member
I have once tryed NLP in my search to find a therapy to help me with my problems and I didnt like it at all. I find it a very cold,harsh calculating, insenstive therapy which uses ideas that control and manipulate people, and in the wrong hands could be very dangerous indeed when dealing with peoples emotions. I think it would be more useful in business areas to get people to buy things and for making money, because the business world is cold and harsh and about using something to make money and get what you want,, for me personally it just did not work, however having said that one of my helpers from years ago sorted her life out with the help of NLP so it obviously works for some!
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From what you have described it sounds to me as though you have a lot of misconceptions about NLP and as to what it is really usefull for.
You do have a very, very solid point about it being very usefull in business and in sales as that is one very good area that it is very helpful in especially in the area of customer service and in creating rapport with your prospects and customers, but NLP is much more than that.
It is true that NLP like any other thing can be used for either good or bad as it is nothing more than a tool. Think of it this way is a gun or a car bad in themselves or is it the intent of the user that makes it either good or bad?
The same is also true for psychology and what the media has to say and unfortunately both psychology and the media have been used for the wrong purposes over the years to tell people that they are either crazy or that if they don't look and act a certain way then they really aren't human.
To me that is true manipulation because that is a lot like dog training and unless I miss my guess you are not short, fury and answers to the name of Rover. But then again I could be wrong and if I am wrong then just let us know what kind of chew toy you would like.
I don't know about you and I don't know about most other people, but I personally do not like to be controlled and treated as if I were a dog. At work that is one thing and I fully expect my employer to tell me as to what to do while at work as long as it is legal, moral, and ethical but once I step out onto the streets that is the end of the controlling and limiting behavior and once I am on the streets I do not allow anyone to treat me like a dog or to try and control me in any way and when people try to do so I tend to find that very offensive and will usually fight back with a vengence.
One of the things that really like about NLP is that if you do get into a situation that you really don't like such as if you are going up against an enemy you can use it to influence and persuade your opponent into doing things that they may not otherwise do. Basically in a sense it is a little like aikido because you are controlling and directing as to what is going on and I must admit that at least when it comes to a combat situation like that it can be rather fun to play with, but like anything else with power comes responsibility and control because only a psychopath would do that on a regular basis with the intent to harm someone.
The true power of NLP and this is the part that I like the best is in using it to desecalate bad situations such as arguements with friends, family, and other people that you care about and to get to realize that certain behaviors that they may be doing really are not very productive or healthy for them, but it is also very helpful in understanding and controlling your own behavior as well and that is where it all starts because if you cannot and do not master yourself, then how on earth can you help others with their problems at all.
If it is used properly it can be used for wonderful and positive things, but if used improperly it can be used to create chaos and discord and I personally choose to use it for positive and constructive things, but it doesn't hurt to develop a good defense either.
rdonovan1 added 7 Minutes and 19 Seconds later...
I forgot to mention that from what you described it sounds as though you either did not really understand as to what you were doing with it or that you just did not give it much of a chance to really help you at all.
The first part is easily correctable by enhancing your knowledge of the subject and by becoming more proficient with it.
The second part is harder to deal with because you are doing exactly what you don't want and that is to allow yourself to be controlled and manipulated as if you were a dog.
Whether people like it or not the only one that can allow you to be controlled and manipulated is yourself as no one can make someone do anything that they don't already want to do, but they can help that person to understand what it is that they really want and they can help to motivate you in the right direction, but they can never control you unless you allow them to do so.
The choice is as always up to you in the end.
rdonovan1 added 6 Minutes and 46 Seconds later...
I don't want to dissect your post bit by bit, but there is a lot of misunderstanding in the body of your message.
Erickson did not create NLP. He was one of the people involved in it's birth, but he is not the sole cause or reason. He understood people, he was (despite seeming grumpiness) an empath which enabled him to read people well. That is not a result of hypnosis or some magic.
NLP is about changing yourself, how you see, hear, and act and what you aim for in life...not about changing others. Yes, you can influence them...by making others feel good about themselves. EVERYONE likes it when others make them feel good. Again, just common sense, and not some mumbojumbo that "makes" people do what you want them to. Even if you were to somehow manipulate others into doing what you want, it is not a sustainable change. Change yourself...(1) it's easier; (2) less changes to make...because they're HARD; (3) sustainable; (4) long lasting; and (5) enriching. I'm sure I can go on but you get the gist of it.
NLP is not so new anymore but it has been rejected by many. One of the main reasons is that others see it exactly as you do: that it's a manipulation tool. In reality, NLP will only do what you want it to do for you. If you see value in it -- you'll get the value from it. If you don't -- you won't. You can't force it on anyone just like you can't teach a pig to sing...it'll just be a waste of time and annoy the pig.
Lastly...I'm not sure how to say this but....I am not in agreement with what you want to use NLP for. I'm all about letting people be who they want to be...I trust them to make the best decision for themselves. As for me...personally...what is that quote? "I'd rather be hated for who I am then loved for who I am not." Yeah...something like that. So....you now have a long list of books on the subject of interest. I do hope you find what you're looking for. Good luck and all the best, rdonovan1.
I think that my weakest point with it all beyond the patterns is with the Swish Pattern.
I understand it somewhat, but not entirely.
Since you are a certified practitioner, perhaps you could help me to understand that better and perhaps while you are at it you could suggest to me some sources as to where I can get additional training with it all and to eventually get certified in it.
Bandler did offer some training it in before, but I don't know if he is still doing that and at the moment I am not really sure as to where to go to get the real deal that Bandler teaches.
Most of the stuff that I have seen so far is the watered down stuff and I am not really interested in the watered down stuff at all.
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sister-ray
Member
That is right and I choose not to be involved with NLP, I can see from your answer to my post you are really into it and I am glad you have found something that works for you may I wish you good luck and all the best
Maybe we just have different perspectives of the same thing. I read the quoted passage and still insist that the change was within you, your perception of situation, your ability to change your thinking from defensive stance to one of collaboration and cooperation, by becoming curious instead of combative, and so on. You didn't change the other people and their view of the world....BUT...you changed yourself...a lot...and with this change of yourself, your thoughts, your actions, your demeanor...you effectively influenced others in a positive way....most importantly, you influenced yourself in a positive and productive way. So really, people's perceptions changed because you changed yourself.
My training is more about application of NLP to your everyday life and effective communications. It is not as in depth into technicalities of history, who did what first. My interest is more in the "what works" realm. As far as understanding people -- that is why I'm studying psychology. NLP is just a tool that I use to become more aware of my thoughts, actions, and dialogue (internal and external)...become curious rather then judgmental or rigid...by using what I know to put myself in others shoes to help me communicate better...and even to spot manipulators
and still work effectively with them...stuff like that.Maybe we just have different perspectives of the same thing. I read the quoted passage and still insist that the change was within you, your perception of situation, your ability to change your thinking from defensive stance to one of collaboration and cooperation, by becoming curious instead of combative, and so on. You didn't change the other people and their view of the world....BUT...you changed yourself...a lot...and with this change of yourself, your thoughts, your actions, your demeanor...you effectively influenced others in a positive way....most importantly, you influenced yourself in a positive and productive way. So really, people's perceptions changed because you changed yourself.
My training is more about application of NLP to your everyday life and effective communications. It is not as in depth into technicalities of history, who did what first. My interest is more in the "what works" realm. As far as understanding people -- that is why I'm studying psychology. NLP is just a tool that I use to become more aware of my thoughts, actions, and dialogue (internal and external)...become curious rather then judgmental or rigid...by using what I know to put myself in others shoes to help me communicate better...and even to spot manipulators
From what you have described it sounds like we are both pretty much on the same track because I too am interested in what works and in the practical application of it all, and that is why I am so heavy into wanting to learn the patterns especially the swish pattern as I know that when used properly it can bring about change.
One of the things that I have learned from it all is that most people tend to think negative and that is why when you tell someone that they can't do something it generally tends to make them want to do what you are suggesting and that is where the whole process of negation comes in really handy because like Dr. Bandler once said the human mind is a lot like a computer and what you put into it is what you are going to get out of it and I know that he is exactly right about that because I have studied computers and computer programming in the past and over the years I have also done a lot of study into stuff like evolutionary psychology and a lot of it makes sense because it is all based upon hard scientific fact that cannot be changed.
I too study psychology because that is half of the fun of it all because I know that psychologists tend to say that everyone is crazy and {sometimes wonder} if that is really true.
I would prefer to believe that it is not true and that there is a lot more to it than what psychologists generally say but unfortunately a lot of people tend to disagree with me on that and that is what I generally find to be very funny.
{some people} really don't see themselves in a positive light at all and those are the types of people that I would really like to help out the most because those kinds of people have pretty much convinced themselves that they are no better than dogs because they have been programmed to believe a lot of negative stuff.
They say that they have the right to choose, but until they start really looking at the whole picture they really don't have much of a right to choose because they are already being told by the media and by society at large as to how they are supposed to think and feel and that is something that I really disagree with because I don't believe that anyone has the right to tell someone else as to how to think or feel. That has to come from with inside you and until you are able to realize that you do have more choices available to you than what psychology and the popular media tells you, you can and you will stay stuck in a rut doing what Albert Enstein and Dr. Erickson have both said and that is 'The definition of crazy is doing the same things over and over again, but expecting different results'.
Dr. Erickson also went on to state that 'All communication is a form of hypnosis'.
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Maybe we just have different perspectives of the same thing. I read the quoted passage and still insist that the change was within you, your perception of situation, your ability to change your thinking from defensive stance to one of collaboration and cooperation, by becoming curious instead of combative, and so on. You didn't change the other people and their view of the world....BUT...you changed yourself...a lot...and with this change of yourself, your thoughts, your actions, your demeanor...you effectively influenced others in a positive way....most importantly, you influenced yourself in a positive and productive way. So really, people's perceptions changed because you changed yourself.
My training is more about application of NLP to your everyday life and effective communications. It is not as in depth into technicalities of history, who did what first. My interest is more in the "what works" realm. As far as understanding people -- that is why I'm studying psychology. NLP is just a tool that I use to become more aware of my thoughts, actions, and dialogue (internal and external)...become curious rather then judgmental or rigid...by using what I know to put myself in others shoes to help me communicate better...and even to spot manipulators
I agree with you that I do think that we do have different perspectives on the subject, but we are not all the much different either.
At the moment my focus with it is on the business side because I know that it can be applied to business, but I am also very interested in using it to deal with people like my parents and other related people who tend to think they know it all.
I am just wondering as to how well you understand the rapport aspect of NLP because I know that is very, very important and that tends to get into the area of keywords or as in NLP teminalogy trance words.
Rapport, to me, is an ability to tap into the other person's "reality" by taking on their physiology, their mannerism, acknowledging their thoughts and views, validating their emotional, or lack thereof, disposition which really helps you understand them and be an active participant in the communication episode. Again, I don't think hypnosis is the key here. It's just boils down to understanding the other person and where they're coming from....it brings up empathy. So, if you work for an organization and an irate client walks in, you can establish rapport, then get the details of the problem and address it. If you try to avoid or ignore or squash persons emotional and physical state, you probably won't get far and there is a strong chance you'd upset the person even more.
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