Parental Narcissistic Personality Disorder

[David Baxter PhD]

Why Is Narcissistic Personality Disorder So Little Known?
by Beth McHugh
February 10, 2010

With the realization that one's parent has narcissist personality disorder (NPD) comes relief, shock, rage and sorrow. It is never easy to learn that one's mother or father has the condition. This is especially true when the parent is the mother, as the mother is characteristically seen as the principal source of love and nurturance.

Of course, there is no true love and nurturance when one's mother is a narcissist. Quite the opposite. And no-one comes away from experiencing life with a narcissistic parent without an array of emotional wounds and scars. This is completely normal and nothing to be ashamed of.

These scars are laid down in early childhood but it possible for a person with such a parent to not realize just how emotionally damaged they are until they reach adulthood and try to establish some independence from the NPD parent. This is one of the times when trouble starts between narcissistic parent and adult child.

Anther common time is when the adult child of a narcissistic parent becomes a parent themselves. Watching how their own parents relates (or fails to relate adequately) to the new infant can often brings back poignant memories of ones own emotionally impoverished childhood. Again, this is a time when realization and arguments break out between mother and daughter or father and son, or the corresponding relationships pairings.

So why does it take so long for the victims of narcissist to work out what is wrong? I must emphasize that it is not the fault of the adult child of the NPD parent. It is possible for a person to live out their entire lifetime, (and many have), without realizing that there is something profoundly wrong with their parent. What happens is that the parent has convinced the child and later, the adult child, that there is something profoundly wrong with them. This is how narcissists operate and they are often very successful at what they do, often convincing their children that they are at fault for everything that goes wrong in the parent's life, that they are no good and that no matter what they do they can never please the parent or even "get it right".

 

[Hermes]

There is, fortunately, a lot more information now available regarding NPD parents:

Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers - Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers

We just internalise the stress, and think it's us that's wrong, and horrible, and maybe even crazy. This is assisted by the fact that our Narcissistic Mothers and Enabling Fathers tell us that we're crazy! Maybe not in as many words, but every time they gaslight us to tell us our memory and perceptions are mistaken, it's effectively saying we're crazy.

We maybe still think our mother loves us because she tells us she does, and we don't know any better to realise that normally love doesn't manifest in such sly put-downs, such undermining, such neglect. And of course our culture tells us, loud and clear and over and over, that our mother loves us, and that we need to love her. And because of this, our friends just don't - cannot - understand any of this, and that's lonely too.

 

[Cat Dancer]

I just wonder sometimes if trying to survive causes most people to develop a little bit of narcissism?

Someone told me once jokingly that "it's always the mother's fault." I hear this A LOT. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't true.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

No, sometimes it's the father's fault. Sometimes, it's the child's fault. Sometimes it's somebody else's fault. Sometimes it's nobody's fault.

 

[Jazzey]

I just wonder sometimes if trying to survive causes most people to develop a little bit of narcissism?

Someone told me once jokingly that "it's always the mother's fault." I hear this A LOT. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't true.

That's interesting CD. I had a similar thought earlier. I think sometimes that the road to recovery makes us feel a heck of a lot more selfish than we want to feel. It's a bit of a tug of war between guilt and wanting to feel better, for me at least.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

But there's a huge difference between the self-focus that occurs as a result of depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc., or as a result of involvement in therapy and "selfishness", and another huge difference between even "selfishness" and narcissism.

 

[Hermes]

Yes, there is a very big difference between "selfishness" (people can be selfish sometimes or often), and narcissism i.e. being self-absorbed. The NPdisordered is totally self-absorbed.

If the mother is a narcissist (and as such is an abuser, if not physically, then emotionally, verbally, mentally), then it is her fault. Likewise, the father.

I do not think a child can be held to fault IMHO.

As for trying to survive (and aren't we all?) , well I daresay we may have moments of selfishness, moments of generosity, moments of greatness -- normal stuff - which is what sets us apart from the NPDs. They are self-absorbed all the time, and will never change.

Hermes

 

[Cat Dancer]

But NPDs do have some moments of generosity too at least from what I've experienced. They CAN go through moments of normalcy and that is one thing that makes it extremely confusing for a child. They can be kind and loving and all kinds of other things that make them seem like a really good parent, at least to an outsider.

The whole issue is confusing to me because it seems like the diagnosing is almost always done second hand from the victim's viewpoint because an NPD wouldn't likely admit to having a problem.

It also seems like a child of a narcissist would also develop similar traits as the parent as a result of trying to survive in that kind of household. How can you escape it?

 

[David Baxter PhD]

But NPDs do have some moments of generosity too at least from what I've experienced. They CAN go through moments of normalcy and that is one thing that makes it extremely confusing for a child. They can be kind and loving and all kinds of other things that make them seem like a really good parent, at least to an outsider.

The psychopath is described as a good actor, one who can mimic the full range of human emotion when it serves his own interests but who cannot actually feel those emotions. I think it's similar for the narcissist.

The whole issue is confusing to me because it seems like the diagnosing is almost always done second hand from the victim's viewpoint because an NPD wouldn't likely admit to having a problem.

Good point. But I think that's probably more likely to be true on a forum like this one because of course we're only seeing that individual through the forum member's eyes, as you say. In the real world, whether or not the individual thinks s/he has a problem may not prevent him/her from coming into conflict with other people and/or the law and the diagnosis would occur at that point.

It also seems like a child of a narcissist would also develop similar traits as the parent as a result of trying to survive in that kind of household. How can you escape it?

Children of alcoholics are at greater risk for developing alcoholism themselves. Some do. Many don't, perhaps because having seen the example of the alcoholic parent and the destruction sowed by that parent they take the necessary steps to be different.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Why Is Narcissistic Personality Disorder So Little Known? Part 2

Why Is Narcissistic Personality Disorder So Little Known? Part 2
by Beth McHugh
February 11, 2010

In our last article, we looked at how a lack of knowledge about narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) keeps the children and the adult children of the narcissist in the dark as to the true nature of what is going on in the households in which they grew up.

Clients often ask me why this condition is not well known and why it took them so long to discover that they were dealing with a particularly intractable problem with their parents.

The answer is twofold: Mental illness of any sort is still largely a topic of taboo despite numerous campaigns to de-stigmatize conditions which take up more hospital beds than physical ailments. So, as a society we fight the very existence of mental illness to a large extent. This makes it hard for the sufferers of mental illness to talk freely about their condition and receive empathy and help. But it also has the devastating effect of making the lives of family members, particularly young children, unnecessarily difficult.

In a sense, we are all victims of our reluctance to talk about mental illness because, despite the outward appearance and behavior of many of the general public, a huge proportion are affected by mental illness in some way, either personally or indirectly through friends and family members. And yet, as a society we largely continue to pretend that it does not exist.

The other reason why NPD is so little known is peculiar to this disorder in itself. It is not that common, affecting less than 5 % of the population. However although few are affected, the effect of the few on the families concerned can be devastating.

Having a NPD mother can result in a child who suffers chronic depression, low self esteem, generalized rage at the world, chronic anxiety and a failure to fulfill their potential.

A very common feeling is a sense that they are always serving two masters and this latter feeling often appears after marriage or the commencement of a serious long-term relationship. Because the adult child is not allowed to have a normal relationship with the NPD parent and therefore feel free to give themselves completely to their love partner, there is always inner tension and turmoil as the person strives to be both perfect child and perfect partner. Clearly this is not achievable and this alone sets up internal conflict, not to mention potential marriage difficulties.

Yet the victim of the narcissist struggles on until such time as they go into therapy for their own emotional difficulties. Often then, the therapist fails to locate one of the sources of their pain - a narcissistic parent. In coming articles, we will look at this phenomenon and how misdiagnosis can lead to further feelings of self doubt.

 

[Hermes]

That is the heart of the matter, Cat Dancer. They (NPDs) are well able to pretend to outsiders that they are kind, loving, considerate (in this case we are talking NPD parent). It looks good (that NPD image!) to appear kind and loving, the ideal parent. They only SEEM these things. NPDs by the very nature of their disorder can have no empathy with anyone, less so can they love. "Others" are merely objects to them. You can't take anything out of an empty sack. And that is what the NPD is. All smoke and mirrors. Since they do not believe there is anything wrong with them, of course they do not present for therapy. Why would they? They are so busy driving everyone else mad.

Not that common? Well five people out of every hundred sounds like a lot to me! Too many.

Hermes

---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 PM ----------

Yes, Cat Dancer. It is rather likely that the unfortunate child of an NPD will in turn become a victim of that or some other disorder. The damage is insidious, wreaked on the tiny child from an early age. So it is not obvious, the NPD makes mighty sure it is not obvious.
The alcoholic may (and many do) in their drunkeness go haywire on occasion, breaking up furniture, wrecking the place, becoming violent, yelling, all being apparent actions. So a child might be able to say, " I won't ever be like that". Not so with NPD. Living in that toxic atmosphere does have an effect. How could it not. Try living in a smoke filled room and see how you turn out.

Hermes

---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

One of the hardest positions you may find yourself in is when having to decide whether to cut off all contact with your parent or parents. It seems unnatural to live your life as if your parents are already dead. (In truth, what is unnatural is how N parents treat their children.) Society tends to disapprove of adult children walking out of a parent’s life. Other family members will shame you for it. People seem to dismiss reason in this realm refusing to believe there must be an egregious crime or, more accurately a series of crimes, somewhere for an adult child to make such a drastic step. The very unnaturalness of cutting off from ones parents should be a giant red flag to others that something very wrong has been going on out of sight. The willingness of people to judge what they have not been witness to is a natural human fault. If you’ve tried to cut off contact from family you’ve already run into this reality. You’re going to have to be very sure of your decision if you’re going to be able to deal with this inevitable judgment

From this article:

Cut Off the Narcissistic Parent? Or Not? | All About Him

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Not that common? Well five people out of every hundred sounds like a lot to me! Too many.

I highly doubt that the incidence of NPD is 5% of the population.

 

[Hermes]

That is just what the stats say. I think it is probably more, simply because many NPDs (most maybe) never present for therapy. Any who are dragged there by a mentally exhausted near and dear one are quick to tell the therapist there is nothing wrong with them.

Hermes

---------- Post added at 12:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

As this article points out, it DOES take courage, a lot of it, to disentangle from the N-parent.

The first step to No Contact is the heady, but terrifying, realisation that it's possible! I often longed to, but didn't think it was possible - I mean, you can't leave your family!


The cultural indoctrination was too strong: Of course you have to stay in touch with your family! No Contact is a totally mad idea!

The fear was strong: Who will I be able to depend on if I go No Contact with my family? Will I end up so lonely?

The guilt was strong: How can I be so cruel as to abandon them by going No Contact?

And so, the realisation that yes, it's possible, and many women do it, is hugely liberating. (And yes, scary.)

The next step is the painful - but ultimately liberating one - of finally giving up the dream, the fantasy, that you'll ever have a proper mother. I think the biggest thing that keeps us emmeshed in this dysfunctional and damaging relationship is the hope that one day she'll change.

Or, if she has successfully infantilised you enough, she might sneer at you that you'd never survive without her - and you may well believe her.

No Contact - Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers

 

[David Baxter PhD]

That is just what the stats say. I think it is probably more, simply because many NPDs (most maybe) never present for therapy.

Most estimates are lower than that:

Narcissistic personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lifetime prevalence is estimated at 1% in the general population and 2% to 16% in clinical populations.<sup>[8]

[8]</sup> Narcissistic Personality Disorder Personality Disorders - Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Armenian Medical Network. 2006. Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Retrieved 2007-02-14.

Narcissistic personality disorder: Risk factors - MayoClinic.com

Narcissistic personality disorder is rare. It affects more men than women. Narcissistic personality disorder often begins in early adulthood. Although some adolescents may seem to have traits of narcissism, this may simply be typical of the age and doesn't mean they'll go on to develop narcissistic personality disorder.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder - Medical Disability Guidelines

Incidence and Prevalence: In the US, less than 1% of individuals have narcissistic personality disorder (Bienenfeld).

Bienenfeld, David. "Personality Disorders." eMedicine. Eds. Sarah C. Aronson, et al. 29 Dec. 2004. Medscape. 21 Oct. 2004 Personality Disorders: eMedicine Psychiatry

 

[Hermes]

Wishful thinking that it may be lower. I too hope that the percentage is lower, but I have serious doubts, truly.

The NPDs are certainly not going to stick their hands up to be counted.

It dismays me, the havoc wreaked by these people.

Hermes

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Wishful thinking that it may be lower. I too hope that the percentage is lower, but I have serious doubts, truly.

I don't think it's wishful thinking at all. Part of the confusion is between the general population and clinical populations. If you look at rates for hospitalized patients rather than the population at large, of course you're going to see higher rates or estimates. If you look at prison popularions, the rates for NPD and APD are going to be a lot higher still.

But inflating general prevalence rates isn't helpful. If you try to be alarmist by suggesting that such personality disorders are common (or epidemic), all you do is undermine the credibility ofn those who are trying to raise awareness about mental illness and mental health.

I remember some years ago when a new child psychiatrist set up practice in the town where I was working at the time. He had a special interest in Tourette Syndrome. The problem was that 8 or 9 out of every 10 children he saw came away with a diagnosis of TS. Of course, it didn't take very long before other mental health professionals would check the name on the report, see that psychiatrist's name there, and think (or say), "Oh yes... another one of Dr. X's 'Tourette Syndrome' kids".

 

[Cat Dancer]

Interesting that it's more common in men than women.

I think that best thing to do is get into therapy and deal with it and heal. It seriously doesn't do any good to dwell on it constantly.

I do have some sympathy for them because it seems like it's some kind of deep disorder that they can't help.

Is it something wrong with the functioning of their brains or some kind of trauma that causes it? It's sad.

 

[Hermes]

Well, it is said that it is more common among men than among women, but looking at the "narcissistic mothers" I am not so sure...

Well yes, Cat, it would be great if the NPD went into therapy, and dealt with it and healed. And yes, the NPDs did not ask to have the disorder, and perhaps the cause is both nature and nurture. A lot has been written on the disorder, and perhaps like many mental disorders, no absolute conclusions have been reached. In that sense, I sympathise with their fate. But that does not detract from the enormous damage they do.

Hermes

 

[Mari]

Prevalence and Age and Gender Features

According to the DSM IV-TR, between 2% and 16% of the population in clinical settings (between 0.5-1% of the general population) are diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Most narcissists (50-75%, according to the DSM-IV-TR) are men.

 

[Beth McHugh]

Hi Cat Dancer ,
I wrote this article and several others on this forum and in my experience with clients the good stuff that you see is the image that the narcissist wants to show to the world. "My child is the best dressed" or "my daughter is an accountant" or "I made this cake myself". It's all about image and nothing about love for the child or the pleaure people might have from eating the cake. The generosity also comes with an agenda unfortunately. This is indeed extremely confusing for the child because everything looks good, but underneath there is a lack of interest in the child, unless that child can be a source of attention for the NPD parent. Thus if such a parent had a talented musician as a chuld, the parent woudl be pleased -- but not for the child, but for themselves that they created such a child.

And yes, diagnosis is almost always done by proxy as the narcissist can never admit that there is something wrong with them. So the person who goes to theapay is the adult child. Almost two -thirds of my case load at the moment is from people trying firstly to understand the condition and then to cut their overwhelming desire to make their parent love them. It is a difficult condition to deal with , but not impossible to reverse.
Some children of narcissists do turn out to be narcissists themselves. At present the jury is out on just how much of the narcissitic personality type is inherited , at least expressed under the right conditons, and how much is learned behavior. The remainder of the "normal" children of these parents end up with a host of life problems that therapy is useful in dealing with. Because the adult child of the narcissit is sane and in contact with reality, although brainwashed by the parent concerned, the presence of reality in the adult child makes for the possiblity and high likelihood of recovery in my experience.

Best wishes,

Beth McHugh
youronlinecounselor.com

But NPDs do have some moments of generosity too at least from what I've experienced. They CAN go through moments of normalcy and that is one thing that makes it extremely confusing for a child. They can be kind and loving and all kinds of other things that make them seem like a really good parent, at least to an outsider.

The whole issue is confusing to me because it seems like the diagnosing is almost always done second hand from the victim's viewpoint because an NPD wouldn't likely admit to having a problem.

It also seems like a child of a narcissist would also develop similar traits as the parent as a result of trying to survive in that kind of household. How can you escape it?