More threads by David Baxter PhD

David Baxter PhD

Late Founder
What are Personal Boundaries and How to Get them
by Darlene Lancer
March 19, 2013

Love can?t exist without boundaries, even with your children. It?s easy to understand external boundaries as your bottom line. Think of rules and principles you live by when you say what you will or won?t do or allow. If you have difficulty saying no, override your needs to please others, or are bothered by someone who is demanding, controlling, criticizing, pushy, abusive, invasive, pleading, or even smothering you with kindness, it?s your responsibility to speak-up. Boundaries also are also internal, discussed below.

Types of boundaries
There are several areas where boundaries apply:

  • Material boundaries determine whether you give or loan things, such as your money, car, clothes, books, food, or toothbrush.
  • Physical boundaries pertain to your personal space, privacy, and body. Do you give a handshake or a hug ? to whom and when? How do you feel about loud music, nudity, and locked doors?
  • Mental boundaries apply to your thoughts, values, and opinions. Are you easily suggestible? Do you know what you believe, and can you hold onto your opinions? Can you open-mindedly to listen to someone else?s, without becoming rigid? If you become highly emotional, argumentative, or defensive, you may have weak emotional boundaries.
  • Emotional boundaries distinguish separating your emotions and responsibility for them from someone else?s. It?s like an imaginary line or force field that separates you and others. Healthy boundaries prevent you from giving advice, blaming or accepting blame. They protect you from feeling guilty for someone else?s negative feelings or problems and taking others? comments personally. High reactivity suggests weak emotional boundaries. Healthy emotional boundaries require clear internal boundaries ? knowing your feelings and your responsibilities to yourself and others.
  • Sexual boundaries protect your comfort level with sexual touch and activity ? what, where, when, and with whom.
  • Spiritual boundaries relate to your beliefs and experiences in connection with God and a higher power.

Why it?s hard
It?s hard for codependents to set boundaries because:

  1. They put others? needs and feelings first;
  2. They don?t know themselves;
  3. They don?t feel they have rights;
  4. They believe setting boundaries jeopardizes the relationship; and
  5. They never learned to have healthy boundaries.

Boundaries are learned. You didn?t learn you had rights or boundaries, if yours weren?t valued growing up. Any kind of abuse violates personal boundaries, including teasing. For example, my brother ignored my pleas for him to stop tickling me until I could barely breathe. This made me feel powerless and that I didn?t have a right to say ?Stop? when I was uncomfortable. In recovery, I gained the capacity to tell a masseuse to Stop and use less pressure. In some cases, boundary violations affect a child?s ability to mature into an independent, responsible adult.

You have rights
You may not believe you have any rights if yours weren?t respected growing up. For example, you have a right to privacy, to say ?No,? to be addressed with courtesy and respect, to change your mind or cancel commitments, to ask people you hire to work the way you want, to ask for help, to be left alone, to conserve your energy, and to not answer a question, the phone, or an email.

  • Think about all the situations where these rights apply.
  • Write how you feel and how you currently handle them.
  • How often do you say ?Yes,? when you?d like to say, ?No??
  • Write want you want to happen.
  • List your personal bill of rights. What prevents you from asserting them?
  • Write statements expressing your bottom line. Be kind. For example, ?Please don?t criticize me (or call, or borrow my . . .),? and ?Thank you for thinking of me, but I regret I won?t be joining (or able to help) you . . .?

Internal boundaries
Internal boundaries involve regulate your relationship with yourself. Think of them as self-discipline and healthy management of time, thoughts, emotions, behavior and impulses. If you?re procrastinating, doing things you neither have to nor want to do, or overdoing and not getting enough rest, recreation, or balanced meals, you may be neglecting internal physical boundaries. Learning to manage negative thoughts and feelings empowers you, as does the ability to follow through on goals and commitments to yourself.

Healthy emotional and mental internal boundaries help you not assume responsibility for, or obsess about, other people?s feelings and problems ? something codependents commonly do, followed by violating others? emotional boundaries with unwanted advice. Strong internal boundaries curb suggestibility. You think about yourself, rather than automatically agreeing with others? criticism or advice. You?re then empowered to set external emotional boundaries if you choose. Similarly, since you?re accountable for your feelings and actions, you don?t blame others. When you?re blamed, if you don?t feel responsible, instead of defending yourself or apologizing, you can say, ?I don?t take responsibility for that.?

Guilt and resentment
Anger is often a signal that action is required. If you feel resentful or victimized and are blaming someone or something, it might mean that you haven?t been setting boundaries. If you feel anxious or guilty about setting boundaries, remember, your relationship suffers when you?re unhappy. Once you get practice setting boundaries, you feel empowered and less anxiety, resentment, and guilt. Generally, you receive more respect from others and your relationships improve.

Setting effective boundaries
People often say they set a boundary, but it didn?t help. There?s an art to setting boundaries. If it?s done in anger or by nagging ? ?I?ve told you 100 times . . .,? you won?t be heard. Boundaries are not meant to punish, but are for your well-being and protection. They?re more effective when you?re assertive, calm, firm, and courteous. If that doesn?t work, you may need to communicate consequences to encourage compliance. It?s essential, however, that you never threaten a consequence you?re not fully prepared to carry out.

It takes time, support, and relearning to be able to set effective boundaries. Self-awareness and learning to be assertive are the first steps. Setting boundaries isn?t selfish. It?s self-love ? you say ?Yes,? to you, each time you say ?No.? It builds self-esteem. But it usually takes encouragement to make yourself a priority and to persist, especially when you receive pushback. Read more on setting boundaries in Codependency for Dummies and my ebook, How to Speak Your Mind and Set Limits.
 

GDPR

GDPR
Member
When you’re blamed, if you don’t feel responsible, instead of defending yourself or apologizing, you can say, “I don’t take responsibility for that.”

That sounds so simple! I am going to try that,starting today.

It might work much better than defending myself,because that almost always turns into me yelling and losing my temper trying to get the other person to take back what they have blamed me for.
 
Well, it sounds simple. It's awesome to have tools to help us learn about ourselves and how to deal with other people. It's easy in concept, but sometimes, a person "knows" something or "understands" - but it's the getting into the habit and gaining confidence and developing that new tool (and I cannot speak for everyone, I'm referring to myself at least)...

So be patient with yourself. Think of it this way: what happened in childhood is kind of laid down in your brain like an encrypted code or a hard-to-detect echo in the back of your mind. In times of stress or chaos you might just automatically revert back to your usual tool belt, which you've had all your life. You may need to learn to listen. I mean really listen and be mindful of those background noises, in order to help you accomplish the task at hand.

Don't worry, though, I'm not saying it's hopeless at all. Far from it. In fact you seem to be a really quick learner (and also very willing learner), which helps you immensely. I am only saying this because in plain black and white the information makes perfect sense, it just may take the "emotional" mind a little longer to catch up. You know how the logical side works but the emotional (maybe I am not using the correct term) side sometimes makes learned patterns or beliefs really tough to bend... Eventually they do, though, so keep doing what you're doing and it'll work. The mind is very malleable and plastic, and can relearn... Neurological pathways can actually change with effort.

What may help (although it is different for everyone) is meditating. For example, I used to feel tremendous guilt for putting down boundaries. I couldn't shake the feeling that I was doing something bad. But my therapist advised me to take some time to myself and do some deep breathing exercises... And repeat to myself in that calm state: "I am not a bad person. I am making healthy boundaries. I will become confident with practice. I am not being "mean." I am being healthy." And etc...

Just sayin' - be patient with yourself. But go for it!! ♥

It might work much better than defending myself,because that almost always turns into me yelling and losing my temper trying to get the other person to take back what they have blamed me for.
Definitely. Some master manipulators try to get someone yelling, for example, so they can be made to look foolish or unstable. It's a mean little trick, but it's a possibility. Also some people get intense satisfaction when you start yelling and becoming defensive, so it's a real pain in their butt when you don't react emotionally like they expected. :D Mwahahahahaaa! Double points for you if you don't even act smug. ;) At first you may not feel authentic doing it, but you will transform into a confident person when you know what your rights and boundaries need to be. ♥
 

GDPR

GDPR
Member
Some master manipulators try to get someone yelling, for example, so they can be made to look foolish or unstable. It's a mean little trick, but it's a possibility. Also some people get intense satisfaction when you start yelling and becoming defensive,

So True.And my kids know that once they push my buttons and get me so upset that I am yelling I will soon start feeling guilty for it and start blaming myself and apologizing to them....and then I am putty in their hands and they will end up getting their way.
 
Ah! I posted this somewhere else today, but I think you might like it, too! :D

Right to anger.jpg

Inner Child.jpg


And likewise:

STOP.jpg ;)

ATTITUDE NOT A PROBLEM.jpg << --- What you might want to say to people who push your buttons...

FORGIVEYARIGHT.jpg

MAID WE DON'T HAVE.jpg

And so on... ;)
 
Yes, please note the increasing amount of sarcasm as the pictures continue.

It does seem to be somewhat helpful. I don't always say what's on my mind, but these pictures sum it up nicely. ;)

Humour does help, and sarcasm is just the right amount of "you don't push my buttons, you give me fodder for my jokes" and "you may try to bother/manipulate me with guilt, but as you can see, it isn't working."

Mind you, if the button-pusher is likely to have a temper-tantrum, that speaks volumes about his/her self, doesn't it? :D Just watch out though, the immediate satisfaction of finally getting them to have a hissy fit can also cause them to act out emotionally (then or later when you aren't expecting it, and in ways you may not see coming)... So it's better, I find, to come here and talk about your thoughts, or keep them to yourself.

But it's how I coped sometimes. Mouthing off the whole time, but inside my head. ;)

Please note: The most infuriating for them, though, is when you don't engage at all, but say something like, "I'm done with this conversation" or just without words: sip your tea, cut your vegetables, read your paper, water your garden, walk away, detach and/or leave - and don't speak a word, show no irritation, maybe just raise an eyebrow (inside voice: "Oh you think you can get me to respond, eh? Well, this is the new me. I'm not playing your game. So just watch me not respond! And I can sit here and be amused by your reaction"). lol My first choice would be to leave and take yourself right out of that, but sometimes there is a reason for being unable to leave right at that moment.

Also, because some people are master-manipulators, it is wisest not to be alone with them. If at all possible, always have someone else there with you when they are around, so there is a witness and that Button-Pusher can't go to people and say that you did something crazy/mean/ridiculous and try to make you look bad. I know it's hard to do sometimes, but in a case where you're alone, I would leave. And you can also meet them in a public place, a neutral ground, rather than in your home/haven. ♥

This helps/helped a bit (for me) for emotional detachment when dealing with difficult douches, so maybe it will help you.

SILENCE.jpg
 
Its a real struggle that's for sure. Sometimes I find myself defending my boundaries by attacking another person - which is a violation of their boundaries. Learning how to set boundaries effectively takes time and practice. It means failing and learning from the mistake.

One thing I've learned recently dealing with my sister (a notorious boundary violator) is that I don't have to respond to every email or text message. I don't have to win the argument. I am permitted to be clear about my needs and limits in one message - it doesn't take 10 messages or even 2. Just one! I've noticed that the people who expect me to be co-dependent will react with anger and argument to any boundaries I set because I have taught them in the past that I will usually give in or even apologize if they keep it up. They will call me rude and mean because I set a limit and they will try to take down the boundary with anger, yelling, guilt, or blame. Those are all tools of someone who doesn't accept boundaries or limits.

With people like that I line my boundary with barbed wire and no trespassing signs because past dealings have taught me they will not respect my boundaries otherwise. But what I've found is that I have a stockpile of grenades that I launch over the boundary at them when I am stressed and that is something I am trying to unlearn. I think it comes from lack of patience with myself and the belief that I don't have the right to say "no" and mean it or that I will give in to the demand.
 
Yes! I know the feeling!!

My mom used to constantly push against any boundaries. And I totally know what you mean about jumping to answer the phone or feel like you immediately have to reply. You don't.

I am fortunate (in a way) that my mother moved to BC and I am in Saskatchewan. I have blocked her phone number, email, and facebook. I am currently at a point in my life when I realize she is never going to change, and in order for me to be able to even LIKE her or at least not HATE her, I've had to stop communications with her. Unfortunately, because my dad has given up his Self and can only seem to feel whole with HER controlling him, I've had to let go of my dad, too. Besides, he was the man that showed me twisted love: stay with your abuser, no matter what. No matter what! Because staying with someone who doesn't value you, but wants to control you, that's love. :( Not. It's enabling, is what it is.

I also agree with you. They still try to push your buttons. And then when/if you finally do allow your emotions to explode, they get intense pleasure from the outburst, or use the opportunity to point out to others that you are unstable or crazy, not them. :p

It's like some of them think you belong to them, you are under their control. You are a thing to play with, not a human being. If you show them signs that you are happy doing what you want, it's infuriating to them. You "aren't allowed" to be happy without them. You should be ashamed that you have your own life/mind/happiness without them. It blows their mind when you continue to live your life on your own terms.

lol The best revenge is a life well-lived, someone said. :D
 
Yes! I know the feeling!!

My mom used to constantly push against any boundaries. And I totally know what you mean about jumping to answer the phone or feel like you immediately have to reply. You don't.

I am fortunate (in a way) that my mother moved to BC and I am in Saskatchewan. I have blocked her phone number, email, and facebook. I am currently at a point in my life when I realize she is never going to change, and in order for me to be able to even LIKE her or at least not HATE her, I've had to stop communications with her. Unfortunately, because my dad has given up his Self and can only seem to feel whole with HER controlling him, I've had to let go of my dad, too. Besides, he was the man that showed me twisted love: stay with your abuser, no matter what. No matter what! Because staying with someone who doesn't value you, but wants to control you, that's love. :( Not. It's enabling, is what it is.

I also agree with you. They still try to push your buttons. And then when/if you finally do allow your emotions to explode, they get intense pleasure from the outburst, or use the opportunity to point out to others that you are unstable or crazy, not them. :p

It's like some of them think you belong to them, you are under their control. You are a thing to play with, not a human being. If you show them signs that you are happy doing what you want, it's infuriating to them. You "aren't allowed" to be happy without them. You should be ashamed that you have your own life/mind/happiness without them. It blows their mind when you continue to live your life on your own terms.

lol The best revenge is a life well-lived, someone said. :D

How does she react to that JGJB? Does she keep finding ways to communicate with you? One day my daughter is going to have to make the same decision you did and break contact with her mother. If she doesn't I don't know what will become of her.

When any of my children are here with me overnight she overwhelms them with text messages. Not one or two but 5 or 6 long text messages. I actually find it ridiculous ... I mean her desperation is so obvious I almost feel sorry for her. Not quite ... but almost.
 
Yeah, my mom used to try. She even still occasionally does.

How she used to was with cards and letters. However she wouldn't write the return address. So I would check the postage stamp whenever I got an envelope without a return address and if it said BC I'd know. I used to open and read some of them. But they were more of the same. It was "poor me" and she always trying to make it sound like none of (the abuse: now or when I was growing up) it was her fault, because excuses excuses excuses. The reason I blocked her on the phone (and she doesn't know our cell phone number), and blocked her email and FB was the same thing. Or weird letters, for example, she sent a Jehovah's Witness-type pamphlet one time, with several things underlined and outlined with yellow marker. After a while I'd ask David to check them, and if they were more of the same or not, I'd ask him to please throw it in the garbage. After a while they stopped sending anything in the mail.

The only time I wrote back was when they finally sold a house I used to have title to (there is a HUGE long story there, but let's just say I am glad I got off the title before they moved to BC) and sent me a cheque in the mail with a Christmas card. I could see it was there, through the front of the envelope, so I sent it back, unopened, inside our own Christmas card saying simply: "Thanks, but we don't need your money. Have a Merry Christmas."

I also caught wind of my mother trying to drag information out of other family members. But thankfully we either don't tell certain relatives what's going on, and we know who won't tell, and we don't post anything of importance anymore on Facebook (because last year somehow, even though we blocked them from FB my parents found out my husband was ill from diverticulosis bleeds)... My parents have even come in person to visit my gramma (who my mom has hung up on before and threatened never to call anymore) to try to get information out of her or others. My gramma has Alzheimer's and her memory is going, but she's still pretty spry. My aunts don't say anything.

My mom has even pestered my mother-in-law (whom I love dearly). Before this ever started my mom would call up David's mom at all hours, and she finally told her to stop. She was working the next day, so it wasn't very nice of my mother to wake her up!!! More recently my parents must have discovered they still had my MIL's email address and started emailing her. I offered to block them on my MIL email for her, and she accepted. Because my mom was going to harass her and guilt her, etc. And my MIL knows all about the things my mom did.

My brother, on the other hand, went silent on my mother several years before I did. My mom would try to get ME to be the passenger pigeon/flying monkey. I said "No More" one day and after that, she only tried one more time to get me to tell my brother she had cancer (it was lie, but she wanted me to try it because it had worked on someone else to stop yelling at her). I said No again. No one has ever given my parents my brother's home address. But she used to call and call and leave ridiculous messages. First she would be a nice and then another day she'd be crying, then another day she'd be angry and threatening, and thus the cycle would repeat. I don't know why they let her leave messages, but they did have others listen to the messages, so they were trying to show people, "See? My mom is a loon." However, sometimes only my brother and sister-in-law could understand what the message "really" meant, and an innocent bystander wouldn't notice anything. Other than that, my brother didn't reply much or say anything in emails other than "Everything is good here, how are you?" lol At the time when I was still talking to her, this infuriated her. She would mention to me, matter of factly, several times a month: "You know, we send him a page of interesting things going on in our lives, and he only writes back one or two sentences."

Now, it's very peaceful. I have no idea how they are doing, and I don't ask for information about them. I don't mind if someone volunteers, but otherwise I don't want to hear it. And the relatives who respect that boundary I am still talking to. Others I talk to but I don't bother telling of the important things like when David was diagnosed with cancer. I've had to make peace with myself (as did my brother)... We aren't sure, but we think if my mother dies, we MIGHT go to the funeral if Dad would have us. If Dad dies, we for sure aren't going to the funeral, because my mother would be there. Funerals are for the living to remember the dead, not for the ones left behind to argue and abuse. So we'll likely just honour our dead parents our own way, but not by traveling hundreds of miles just to be rebuked and possibly screamed at.

I figure we're estranged, so if someone tries to contact me saying my parents need care from their children, I will tell them we don't talk and they knew that and should have prepared for when they were sick. Besides they have one enmeshed brother they've paid off and crippled emotionally to the point where I don't mind if they give my money that could have been willed to me, to be willed to him. Because he's gonna need every penny, as he is as helpless as a babe in the woods without someone controlling him. I don't even think my youngest brother (in Edmonton) minds. We both are okay not to get any money in a will or in any other form from them.

Anything she's ever given us is leverage for her. Any "gift" always has had a secret contract that only she knows about, and can change without anyone signing anything at her discretion. I heard her making up some kind of calculation in front of me and my husband, purposely, something about he will be getting some money from the will, but minus the amount of time my brother wasn't/isn't talking to them. So I imagine it will be something along those lines for me, too. lol That was an obvious attempt to get me to tell my brother about the will "unless he starts to talk to his parents again" and also to me, that if I ever pulled anything like that, I'd likely get reduced or no money in the will as well.

Sorry this is so long. In my support group, I've had ladies tell me some mothers will rage on their doorstop until the daughter calls the police on them. I have also heard that some of these mothers have called social services or slandered them in some way, or brought false charges against them. Eventually it DOES come back to bite these lunatics in their butts, because false charges have consequences. I know some daughters are also physically disabled and are unable to get away, but want to in the worst way. Some are so far in debt they feel they have no choice but to live with their mothers, and their mothers make sure everyone knows about "my poor daughter" and "what a good mother I am" for putting up with this wayward daughter, etc. Others do what my parents did, and try to rally other people to be their puppets and minions. Some are absolutely fine with the silence, and actually think they are punishing their daughters by withholding their affection, but when this happens the daughters are actually fine with it. lol Some daughters move and change their phone numbers without saying anything.

There is no real way to figure out what will happen, until it happens. I guess your daughter will have to gauge things, be well supported (therapist, family on her side, etc) and have a really good plan (how much money to save in a private account, not joint with mother, looking for apartments, etc). It can sometimes take years (like it did with me) for her to accept that she is not a bad daughter for protecting herself. It may take a couple years or decades for your daughter to realize that her mom is the one with the problem, not her. And of course, it will also take time to rebuild and find her Self.

I've run across ladies of all ages, even early 20s though, who have escaped the dysfunction, or understand it enough to distance themselves emotionally while still being under the same roof. I'm not saying it's hopeless, but be prepared in case it's a long haul, shall we say. :p You very well may have to exercise your own no-contact with your daughter. I sure hope it doesn't come to that, but be prepared for that also.

Therapy therapy therapy! You would be surprised at what a psychologist can tell you (I have a Cognitive Behaviour Therapist, but there are different kinds)... Also get support. I suggest Google. There's nothing like having other people around you who've been through what you're going through and know what you're talking about. Like here!

Sorry I've blathered on so long... Let me know if I can help. I will do my best. I'm a little bit under stress myself these days but I could PM you a couple of things or something.
 

GDPR

GDPR
Member
That sounds so simple! I am going to try that,starting today.

It might work much better than defending myself,because that almost always turns into me yelling and losing my temper trying to get the other person to take back what they have blamed me for.

Last night,my son was blaming me,saying that I was the reason he is homeless,I am the reason he uses,that if I would just let him move back home he could be clean,etc. and even though there was a million different things I wanted to say to him,wanted to scream at him,I simply said "I don't take responsibility for that" and said nothing else.

It didn't take away what I was feeling,it didn't change all the hurt and pain,but it did prevent a big argument and really was a better way to handle it.

Jolly,your post gave me anxiety because a lot of it sounded familiar.My mom sent something in the mail a few months ago,something she had found online and printed out.It had a hidden meaning in it,one to hurt me,and it did.My husband read it and was so upset that he said I should just rip up anything else she sends instead of opening them.She still manages to hurt me so deeply even though I cut her from my life a few years ago,and I need to put a stop to it.
 

Peter

MVP
Interesting thread.

Personally I try to limit my boundaries as much as possible.
Why? Because boundaries are limits between what I fear and do not fear. My degree of fear determines where I draw the boundary line.
Before the boundary line, fear has no hold on me. After the boundary line, I become fearful.

The trouble with fears is that once I fear, I feed it. In doing so I create an unhappy destiny.
By facing my fears, I get a chance to overcome them, and my boundary lines become redefined and redrawn.

The more fears I face in life, the less likely I became prey to unwarranted (unreal) fears in the future.
These unreal fears come from my false-self (ego-self). The less fears I harbor, the closer I get to my calm true-self.
That is why the fearless person is calm, and sees the deeper truths of reality - not the unreal fear.

As my degree of fears become limited, so too do my boundaries. That is my goal in life.
 

PrincessX

Account Closed
At Jollybeanjellygreen: Long post, but every word in it makes sense. I apply some of these strategies to my hb's mother. I do not even call her mother-in-law. To me the word "mother" is associated with caring attitude. To be a mother does not happen by biological connection. She and her husband have always been disrespectful towards me, deniying any of my personal or professional achievements, treating me like a homeless person, when, in fact, I was never homeless, reminding me of any periods of poorness of hardship I have had in my past, trying to convince the world I am a bad housewife and mother, trying to convince that they are somehow "higher" class people and I never deserved to be part of their "aristocrat" family. Then, after we married (we did not have a wedding because of them, we both did not want them there at this time), his mother started insisting that I should call her "mom" or nothing. I replied by stopping to talk to her at all. I do not have a problem contacting them with formalities and I do not address them in any way when I do. Same way, I can not call his father "dad". To me the word "dad" is associated with attitude and qualities that this person does not have. Back in my 20s, I decided that the bullying and manipulation from them was over, my family was not going to suffer abuse coming from them. I stopped talking to them, I ended up the relationship. I do not need their hatred, thier money or whatever else they might possess. Now, that they know I do not want anything from them, they have some respect and remain silent.
 
At Jollybeanjellygreen: Long post, but every word in it makes sense. I apply some of these strategies to my hb's mother. I do not even call her mother-in-law. To me the word "mother" is associated with caring attitude. To be a mother does not happen by biological connection. She and her husband have always been disrespectful towards me, deniying any of my personal or professional achievements, treating me like a homeless person, when, in fact, I was never homeless, reminding me of any periods of poorness of hardship I have had in my past, trying to convince the world I am a bad housewife and mother, trying to convince that they are somehow "higher" class people and I never deserved to be part of their "aristocrat" family. Then, after we married (we did not have a wedding because of them, we both did not want them there at this time), his mother started insisting that I should call her "mom" or nothing. I replied by stopping to talk to her at all. I do not have a problem contacting them with formalities and I do not address them in any way when I do. Same way, I can not call his father "dad". To me the word "dad" is associated with attitude and qualities that this person does not have. Back in my 20s, I decided that the bullying and manipulation from them was over, my family was not going to suffer abuse coming from them. I stopped talking to them, I ended up the relationship. I do not need their hatred, thier money or whatever else they might possess. Now, that they know I do not want anything from them, they have some respect and remain silent.

My family is the same way - so much so that my brother and sister never married because my parents behaved as if they were royalty and better than everyone else. That, plus the general dysfunction of my family, ran off potential spouses. I didn't marry until I was 32 and my parents realized they had better accept my wife or they would never have grandchildren. (a status symbol for them more than the joy of grand parenthood)

The funny thing is that my mother was dirt poor growing up. Her father was an alcoholic with a 6th grade education and could never hold a job. They moved around from rental house to rental house and often lived with relatives. My father came from a good family and his father was a well-known and well-liked attorney and Judge. She married into a family not to a man and then took it as her own forgetting her own roots.
 

PrincessX

Account Closed
My family is the same way - so much so that my brother and sister never married because my parents behaved as if they were royalty and better than everyone else. That, plus the general dysfunction of my family, ran off potential spouses. I didn't marry until I was 32 and my parents realized they had better accept my wife or they would never have grandchildren. (a status symbol for them more than the joy of grand parenthood)

His mother was also poor growing up. Her biggest fear was that he might marry someone without money or "royal" parents. At the time he did exactly that. I was never "accepted" by them. It took me some years to figure out that I did not need to be "accepted" by anyone to live with the man I love, given that he wants to live with me as well. I do not give a damn about their "acceptance" criteria, as they do not respond to mine. They are so far away from my standards for human behaviour that I do not even care how far I am from the amount of money and other financial critera that set the height of the acceptance bar in their family.
 
His mother was also poor growing up. Her biggest fear was that he might marry someone without money or "royal" parents. At the time he did exactly that. I was never "accepted" by them. It took me some years to figure out that I did not need to be "accepted" by anyone to live with the man I love, given that he wants to live with me as well. I do not give a damn about their "acceptance" criteria, as they do not respond to mine. They are so far away from my standards for human behaviour that I do not even care how far I am from the amount of money and other financial critera that set the height of the acceptance bar in their family.

Good for you, but that must be hard on your husband. Is he able to maintain a relationship with his family?
 
LIT: Good for you for sticking to your ground with your son. You are correct, in my humble opinion. You can't take responsibility for his behaviour. He has to. He can't blame you or anyone else. He can't say "If you do this first, THEN I will do my thing." I suspect he is the one who has no negotiating ot leverage because of what he's already done. If anything, you have the upper hand here. Just remember that.

Jolly,your post gave me anxiety because a lot of it sounded familiar.My mom sent something in the mail a few months ago,something she had found online and printed out.It had a hidden meaning in it,one to hurt me,and it did.My husband read it and was so upset that he said I should just rip up anything else she sends instead of opening them.She still manages to hurt me so deeply even though I cut her from my life a few years ago,and I need to put a stop to it.

I am so sorry about that LIT, I did not intend for it to cause you anxiety. I would have to agree with your husband. That's what we've been doing. You don't have to jump to answer the phone, you don't have to immediately reply to an email, you don't have to open her mail. It was tough for me to stop reading the mail, and I even brought some of it to read with my psychologist. He agreed that it was more of the same (sounded a bit like your son and mom, not taking responsibility but blaming you for things, instead)... It was at that point that I threw out the rest of a really long letter and began to simply toss out anything without a return address. Your mom, my mom, they are not going to change. So we have to.

======================

Peter:
I get what you are saying. However I feel to a certain extent that if some of us have difficulty figuring out where we begin and where our mother/abuser ends, and so on, it would be wise to figure out ourselves and become better differentiated (when children naturally do this as they grow up with normal loving parents, not when children grow up with an all-consuming, engulfing abuser who tries to blunt their children's egos and make them a hostage rather than a human being). That is the first boundary that was messed up by the abuser in the first place. It's really a long road to untangle ourselves from that. It's like our brains were enmeshed with a hive mind. For people who were taught by their abusers that they have no boundaries at all, don't you think it is a good idea to show them the opposite? If it does not work, then a choice would be either to have limited contact or no contact at all. Or, as I mentioned, detachment emotionally and mentally. That's really a lot harder for someone in this situation, don't you think?

Boundaries equals definition of Self, for me. "This is me, not you, I am separate. Please allow me this distance/space/Me to be, or there will be consequences and I will make sure they are carried out." Sure there is fear and anxiety to start with, but it becomes easier as you grow on your journey to find yourself and grow your Self.

+++++++++
Regarding forgetting their own roots...
Yes, I know they like to forget anything negative about them. It's like they are writing their own history in their minds. They don't like to be reminded of anything from the past that might put them in a negative light. That was one of the things that was also so frustrating with my own mom. I kind of understand that her childhood wasn't very easy, either. But it doesn't make her entitled to cheat on her taxes, underpay her employees, or cut expenses by making shoddy repairs (or taking forever to make any repairs in the first place) on her several rental properties. She was caught on all of those, by the way, 2 times by Revenue Canada, another time by the Labour Board, another time by Health Services/Rentalsman. It's amazing what she thinks she can just go ahead and do, like she has no conscience at all and only thinks of herself. And also as amazing how my dad just lets it all happen. Hence the distance.
 

PrincessX

Account Closed
Good for you, but that must be hard on your husband. Is he able to maintain a relationship with his family?

Yes, he is. Fortunately they are far away (I do not think that is entirely accidental ):D
All this dynamic does create tension at times, which happens less and less often as time goes by. Unfortunately, past family abuse, familiy dysfunction always leaves scars regardless of how you choose to deal with it.
I have even come to the point that I can actually talk to them or pretend to and I do not really care what they say or do, but I do not see the need to "fake" a relationship with them, to "fake" being a daughter-in-law to them. I know a lot of people do that, but I would rather be honest to them and myself. I feel better this way, less stressed, not part of a poisonous dynamic, not giving them space to effect my life in any way. I try to have a simple, transparent life. I do not "owe" anyone any part of it, including the effort to maintain fake relationships. Anytime my husband wants to visit them or call them, he is free to do so and this does not directly affect our marriage. He grew up in this athmosphere and it is easier for him to adapt to them. For me, it is impossible. I have seen enough. And enough is enough.

---------- Post Merged at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:52 PM ----------

By facing my fears, I get a chance to overcome them, and my boundary lines become redefined and redrawn.

As my degree of fears become limited, so too do my boundaries. That is my goal in life.

This is very true. I can attest to it even from my experience with the in-laws. I remember that initially, when I was shocked and afraid that they will take us apart forever, even after having children, I was not able to talk to them at all. I wanted to draw a very thick and clear boundary.
Now, I have faced some of this fear and I can actually talk to them, if I want to, but I just do not feel that I want to most of the time.

It is like having a thief in the neighbourhood. If you are afraid from being robbed, you will build a strong fence, so that noone can get into your property.
If you do not fear being robbed you may keep your house unlocked and not build a fence at all.
Question is: Is the thief real? Peter says "These unreal fears come from my false-self (ego-self)". To me the trap is exactly in knowing and respecting your "real self". By the way, I need to read about this ego-self more.
 
I think I know what you mean. My brother and I who are now separate have spouses who really helped open our eyes.

My poor sister-in-law used to have nightmares when my parents were going to visit her. My brother mistakenly believed the problem was between my SIL and mother, but he now knows he should have been more supportive. And it was when he started being more supportive of his bride, that's when my mom started going super nutters. When boundaries were set.

My husband, on the other hand, didn't have to say something when my mother started acting up. He knew me well, and knew even if she didn't notice that when I clammed up, or went blank so as to not show I was angry or hurt, he would stick up for me. I used to try to stand up to her, but at some point I realized she always had to be right, and I was always wrong; she was always to be the one in control and if I struggled for my own control (thoughts, life, etc) we'd end up in a ridiculous screaming match. And I'd feel awful after I lost my temper/control and apologize and my mom would have me under her thumb again (because of guilt and shame, yes LIT?- sound familiar?)... When I was a child growing up, a youth, she came into my room once and terrorized me until I started crying. I watched as a look of intense satisfaction spread across her face. That's how I know she enjoyed pissing me off. If I thought I was correct or had my own opinion or wanted to make my own decisions without her, she would be sure to break me down and make sure I was "in my place." Back down with my throat under her foot, where she preferred me.

However, now my brother and SIL are honest/authentic to themselves. They no longer have a relationship with my mom, and were the first to sever contact, and for very good reasons (because my mom was all up in their business and almost ruined them financially, again, long story).

Princess, same here. It felt so fake when I was trying to get my name off the title of a house. It almost made me feel split in two. But I had to pretend everything was alright. I had to go behind her back and talk to a real estate lawyer, and found out what my mom had been telling me was a lot of lies to keep me on the title. She was infuriated that I did that, of course, but moreso because I didn't trust her (which I shouldn't have, and no one should trust my mom). I had learned from what she had done to my brother. If I had showed any anxiety or worry or had gotten angry, she might have figured that she had some leverage. As it was, I think she felt she HAD to help because now I knew the truth. And we had to kind of do this thing in a hurry because my mom just kind of sprang it on us a couple of months before she and my dad moved. If I ever felt completely unglued, that was the time. I felt so fake and so much the liar that it kept me awake at night.

I had to pull it off, though, I felt. But I've never gone back to that. Ever. And I don't plan to again. I might also mention that I felt our relationship was fake for quite a while, but I was unfortunately still on title, and at one point I was even renting from her. I felt fear: if I disobeyed or didn't make nice I might get evicted, or something else passive aggressive like raising the rent... So that meant I was under her control. I was worried also about my dad. That was the biggest leverage she had. In the past, I didn't realize he would always take her side, and it was a slap in the face when he finally made it clear that he was disappointed in ME. That he identified with my mother and made HER the victim. lol Wow, it was a nasty sting, but that was the last thing that was holding me to this fake relationship with my mom. I had to let go of both of them. I realized my dad was a willing hostage, and that's the role he felt most comfortable in. It's why I had been the hostage in my own relationships: I learned it from him. However, somehow, I got out of those bad relationships, figured out what actual loving relationships are, and so on.

Sorry, blathering again. It felt good to get this off my chest again. I've sort of been letting it be, and stopped talking about it for the longest time. But I believe I still have some residual anger/sadness (it isn't as bad nowadays, no where near as close to when I was in the dysfunction)... I will have to chat with my therapist again, to squeeze a few more drops out of that sponge. lol
 
Interesting thread.

Personally I try to limit my boundaries as much as possible.
Why? Because boundaries are limits between what I fear and do not fear. My degree of fear determines where I draw the boundary line.
Before the boundary line, fear has no hold on me. After the boundary line, I become fearful.

The trouble with fears is that once I fear, I feed it. In doing so I create an unhappy destiny.
By facing my fears, I get a chance to overcome them, and my boundary lines become redefined and redrawn.

The more fears I face in life, the less likely I became prey to unwarranted (unreal) fears in the future.
These unreal fears come from my false-self (ego-self). The less fears I harbor, the closer I get to my calm true-self.
That is why the fearless person is calm, and sees the deeper truths of reality - not the unreal fear.

As my degree of fears become limited, so too do my boundaries. That is my goal in life.

I would like to be able to do that but until I am able (have the necessary skills) my boundaries are important to my well-being.
 
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