A few months ago someone that I know murdered her two young daughters. They were 7 and 9. The youngest was killed quickly but the eldest was traumatized beforehand. This child tried to get help by phoning a family friend. When the friend phoned back the mom told her she was going to kill the child (she was sitting next to her in the car). The mom then drove around with this child who was sitting next to her dead sister and was crying uncontrollably and then took a piece of rope and strangled her. I am really battling to accept how this child died and to accept that these little girls are gone. It seems so unfair and I'm filled with "if onlys". I've been crying for months now and cannot move on. The minute I think of them I cry, in fact I'm distraught. The mom's supposedly was going to kill herself but didn't go through with it and is now in jail. I just cannot accept that we cannot undo what was done and cannot accept that they are gone forever. I feel as if I'm sinking into depression over this loss.
[Trigger] Traumatic Grief
- Thread starter GGaze
- Start date
A few months ago someone that I know murdered her two young daughters. They were 7 and 9. The youngest was killed quickly but the eldest was traumatized beforehand. This child tried to get help by phoning a family friend. When the friend phoned back the mom told her she was going to kill the child (she was sitting next to her in the car). The mom then drove around with this child who was sitting next to her dead sister and was crying uncontrollably and then took a piece of rope and strangled her. I am really battling to accept how this child died and to accept that these little girls are gone. It seems so unfair and I'm filled with "if onlys". I've been crying for months now and cannot move on. The minute I think of them I cry, in fact I'm distraught. The mom's supposedly was going to kill herself but didn't go through with it and is now in jail. I just cannot accept that we cannot undo what was done and cannot accept that they are gone forever. I feel as if I'm sinking into depression over this loss.Re: After a Death: The Pain That Doesn?t Go Away
GGaze,
This was obviously a terrible tragedy that occurred and I am sorry for the pain you must be feeling.
We seem to be living in a world where mindless tragedy occurs with no regard for human life, nearly every day.
Unfortunately you would have had little or no control over this particular tragedy, and it would seem the mother acted in an manner that could not have been foreseen by others.
The grief for these children is understandable; but there is no reason for you to feel guilt.
Have you considered seeking some grief support or counseling to help you deal with this tragedy?
GGaze,
This was obviously a terrible tragedy that occurred and I am sorry for the pain you must be feeling.
We seem to be living in a world where mindless tragedy occurs with no regard for human life, nearly every day.
Unfortunately you would have had little or no control over this particular tragedy, and it would seem the mother acted in an manner that could not have been foreseen by others.
The grief for these children is understandable; but there is no reason for you to feel guilt.
Have you considered seeking some grief support or counseling to help you deal with this tragedy?
Re: After a Death: The Pain That Doesn?t Go Away
GGaze, I had to read your post several times before the enormity of what you described could sink to some level of comprehension. In part because what you describe is so beyond "usual" or "normal" human experience that my [being] kept trying to opt out and disengage from the message and its implications.
given the horror of the absolutely abnormal events, it is completely understandable that beliefs that would normally be soothing are not currently a source of support to you.
Even without knowing anything else about you - your past experiences with depression, family history etc, it is certainly possible that this catastrophic event has precipitated (a major) depression. I strongly support those who are encouraging you to seek care - from what you are saying, an evaluation for biological treatment (meds) and psychological support / treatment seem to both be indicated.
but most of all, please do not give up or give in to the messages of futility that you describe.
best wishes (and prayers if a comfort and not a source of further upset)
df
GGaze, I had to read your post several times before the enormity of what you described could sink to some level of comprehension. In part because what you describe is so beyond "usual" or "normal" human experience that my [being] kept trying to opt out and disengage from the message and its implications.
given the horror of the absolutely abnormal events, it is completely understandable that beliefs that would normally be soothing are not currently a source of support to you.
Even without knowing anything else about you - your past experiences with depression, family history etc, it is certainly possible that this catastrophic event has precipitated (a major) depression. I strongly support those who are encouraging you to seek care - from what you are saying, an evaluation for biological treatment (meds) and psychological support / treatment seem to both be indicated.
but most of all, please do not give up or give in to the messages of futility that you describe.
best wishes (and prayers if a comfort and not a source of further upset)
df
David Baxter PhD
Late Founder
I have worked with several patients in the past who either attempted or successfully completed such acts of violence against their own children, and the horror of one's awareness of the details is incredibly traumatic. For what it's worth, you might find some comfort in accepting that the mother was almost certainly suffering from some form of mental illness at the time. Given that she survived, her own grief when she becomes more fully aware of what she has done will be unimaginable.
While not directly addressing homicide (or infanticide), I wrote an article a few years ago for another website on grief after sudden death which you may find useful. You can find it at Grief and Bereavement in Accidental or Sudden Death - David J. Baxter, PsychLinks.ca.
While not directly addressing homicide (or infanticide), I wrote an article a few years ago for another website on grief after sudden death which you may find useful. You can find it at Grief and Bereavement in Accidental or Sudden Death - David J. Baxter, PsychLinks.ca.
Thank you to everyone for the responses. I will certainly read the article on sudden death that you've recommended. The girls, especially the eldest is constantly on my mind and it's so difficult to digest that the mother dragged this out and went through with it despite the child begging for her life and trying to fight the mother off. If I had a strong christian faith I would probably feel some comfort but I don't even know if there is a heaven or hell or where they have gone or if they are in a better place. All I can think about is what they are missing out on and how scared they were. The mother was facing fraud charges and was about to be exposed for the 2nd time. She also suffered from ongoing depression and after evaluation and during the trial the psychiatrist who testified in mitigation of sentence said that there could be borderline personality disorder. I just so wish that someone could have saved the little sisters
GGaze, I'm sorry this happened. I'm sorry horrible things happen in our world, and I don't understand why they do, but they do. And like you, I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the horrific things suffered by those I love and care about.
When I listen to someone I love describe their experiences of events that I know were devastating and horrifying, my gut knots up and sometimes it hits me harder than my own traumas. I don't know if this is because in my mind, I put myself in their place and have a personal reaction to what happened to them because I feel so close to that person, but I suspect this might have something to do with it. What I don't know is how to stop it from happening, because I don't want those I love to feel they can't open up if they need to. And I also don't want to shut down and pretend that it didn't happen so I don't have to feel what I feel when I think about it.
But I believe there also needs to be a conscious effort to shut our minds down when it becomes overwhelming. This is easier said than done, duh. But with practice, it can happen. It's about allowing yourself to take a break from the pain by consciously giving yourself permission to do so. It's hard to break the cycle, very hard. But it's possible.
Something for you to consider, anyway. I am so very, very sorry for your loss. Just reading it made me think about the things you think about constantly, obviously on a much smaller level because it's not personal to me. I can only imagine your struggle. Thank you for sharing it with us.
When I listen to someone I love describe their experiences of events that I know were devastating and horrifying, my gut knots up and sometimes it hits me harder than my own traumas. I don't know if this is because in my mind, I put myself in their place and have a personal reaction to what happened to them because I feel so close to that person, but I suspect this might have something to do with it. What I don't know is how to stop it from happening, because I don't want those I love to feel they can't open up if they need to. And I also don't want to shut down and pretend that it didn't happen so I don't have to feel what I feel when I think about it.
But I believe there also needs to be a conscious effort to shut our minds down when it becomes overwhelming. This is easier said than done, duh. But with practice, it can happen. It's about allowing yourself to take a break from the pain by consciously giving yourself permission to do so. It's hard to break the cycle, very hard. But it's possible.
Something for you to consider, anyway. I am so very, very sorry for your loss. Just reading it made me think about the things you think about constantly, obviously on a much smaller level because it's not personal to me. I can only imagine your struggle. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Once again thank you to everyone for responding. Even just typing about what happens brings on the tears. In my mind I keep of seeing this little 9 year old sitting in the car and she knows mom is going to kill her and she is petrified and there is nothing she can do and all that I want to do is reach in and help her and make everything alright. It just seems so unfair and makes me angry. I know I must stop my thoughts but I can't seem to help myself. I live in a small city in South Africa so you can imagine that this story made major news headlines.
While the thought of what this little girl might have felt during those terrible moments can make anyone, even with the least amount of empathy, feel sad and outraged, the reality is, despite the horror of the situation, these little girls are at peace now.
Perhaps the best outcome, in memory of these little girls, could be an increased awareness of mental illness, which, as you allude to, appeared to have been at the root of the mother's actions. Hopefully members of the community will take notice of potential red flags in the future, and provide the necessary aid to those in crisis before a tragedy results.
As has been suggested, your own priority ought to be getting professional counseling to help put your own thoughts and feelings at ease.
Are such counseling services available in your community?
Perhaps the best outcome, in memory of these little girls, could be an increased awareness of mental illness, which, as you allude to, appeared to have been at the root of the mother's actions. Hopefully members of the community will take notice of potential red flags in the future, and provide the necessary aid to those in crisis before a tragedy results.
As has been suggested, your own priority ought to be getting professional counseling to help put your own thoughts and feelings at ease.
Are such counseling services available in your community?
Counselling services are available but at a high cost and I did speak to a therapist and found that it didn't help at all. How do you know for sure that the girls are at peace now? If I could know with certainty that they are now better off I would feel better, but I don't even know where they are. Is there eternal life, is there a heaven and hell or do we just sleep forever and therefore know nothing - is that the end and we end up being nothing. Maybe only time will heal my heart and bring me to a place where I can accept what has happened. I also think if I could understand mental illness and how she could hurt her children and not show mercy then maybe I could also move on. I really don't know.
David Baxter PhD
Late Founder
In the cases that I've seen personally of maternal infanticide or attempted infanticide, the events occurred
- in the context of profound depression, where the intent was to commit suicide and the mother, in her distorted thinking, felt that it would be cruel to leave her children unprotected in the world; thus, the intent was to take herself and her children to "a better place", or
- in the context of a psychotic state (i.e., paranoid delusions), for example, where the mother believed the child to be in danger from demons or believed the child to be possessed by a demon.
I feel these are two distinct questions.
The first can only be resolved by your personal beliefs. No one can provide a definitive answer, so your own belief system must be your guide.
Dr. Baxter's explanation of the role of mental illness in such an event can provide some insights based on his clinical experience.
I guess we are meaning seeking creatures, and when an event appears to be senseless and without meaning, it tends to be difficult to understand, to the point of causing distress.
Through support and counseling, I believe the you might be able to find ways to come to terms with this tragedy.
Do you have a spritual advisor who might help in dealing with questions about afterlife?
David, No 1 is true. The mother intended to kill herself as well and made an attempt to cut her wrists. She couldn't go through with it and put down the blade and was driving back to the city (this all happened at a remote beach out of town) with the dead children sitting slumped next to her when the police pulled her over. It came out at the trial that there had been many abortions and suicide attempts over the years and she had tried to kill herself when 8 months pregnant with the youngest daughter.
In her confession she said that she didn't want to leave her daughters with her parents. The reasons she gave was that there would be no one to look after her daughters if she went to jail which is not true as she had a good support network and there were people who would have taken the girls. The eldest daughter's father is alive and is now a broken man.
This whole deed was also planned and premeditated as a confession was typed on the computer at work hours before killing the girls. How could she drive to their school and take them out early knowing all along she was going to kill them? During this time she was composed and calm and even spoke to a client as if nothing was wrong and at that stage we think she had already killed the first child. Why didn't she show them mercy and why didn't she kill them in a kinder way? How do you put a rope around a terrified 9 years olds neck who is crying uncontrollably and pull it tight while she is struggling for her life. It is these questions that I cannot understand and its is these actions that completely get to me.
HOW CAN ANYONE NO MATTER THEIR MENTAL STATE TREAT A LITTLE GIRL WITH SUCH DISREGARD??? In the confession she said that she didn't look at the child while she was pulling the rope. I also cannot understand that she made sure that she killed them but when it came to herself she changed her mind. Why was she so intent with them but not herself? I'm sorry that this post is so long.
---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 PM ----------
No I don't have a spiritual advisor. I don't even know what I believe. I'd love to believe in eternal life as this would comfort me but I'm a realist so I battle to believe anything that cannot be proven. About 2 years ago another friend's 7 year old daughter died from cancer and while I was upset I was able to accept it and moved on quickly. I just have such a strong feeling that these little girls should be here. I feel that they have been denied so much and everytime I tell myself that I cannot change what happened I get this strong feeling of helplessness and it twists my heart that they died for no reason and that their mother impulsively took their lives. They constantly creep into my mind and each time that happens the tears start and I again battle to accept that they are gone forever.
In her confession she said that she didn't want to leave her daughters with her parents. The reasons she gave was that there would be no one to look after her daughters if she went to jail which is not true as she had a good support network and there were people who would have taken the girls. The eldest daughter's father is alive and is now a broken man.
This whole deed was also planned and premeditated as a confession was typed on the computer at work hours before killing the girls. How could she drive to their school and take them out early knowing all along she was going to kill them? During this time she was composed and calm and even spoke to a client as if nothing was wrong and at that stage we think she had already killed the first child. Why didn't she show them mercy and why didn't she kill them in a kinder way? How do you put a rope around a terrified 9 years olds neck who is crying uncontrollably and pull it tight while she is struggling for her life. It is these questions that I cannot understand and its is these actions that completely get to me.
HOW CAN ANYONE NO MATTER THEIR MENTAL STATE TREAT A LITTLE GIRL WITH SUCH DISREGARD??? In the confession she said that she didn't look at the child while she was pulling the rope. I also cannot understand that she made sure that she killed them but when it came to herself she changed her mind. Why was she so intent with them but not herself? I'm sorry that this post is so long.
---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 PM ----------
No I don't have a spiritual advisor. I don't even know what I believe. I'd love to believe in eternal life as this would comfort me but I'm a realist so I battle to believe anything that cannot be proven. About 2 years ago another friend's 7 year old daughter died from cancer and while I was upset I was able to accept it and moved on quickly. I just have such a strong feeling that these little girls should be here. I feel that they have been denied so much and everytime I tell myself that I cannot change what happened I get this strong feeling of helplessness and it twists my heart that they died for no reason and that their mother impulsively took their lives. They constantly creep into my mind and each time that happens the tears start and I again battle to accept that they are gone forever.
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David Baxter PhD
Late Founder
From my observations, there is a significant detachment between the individual's behavior and thoughts and feelings at such times, with elements of derealization and/or depersonalization. The calmness is consistent with that.
It may be that she "came out of" this state by the time she attempted suicide, or that the physical sensations of trying to kill herself brought her out of it.
But it's probably not helpful to dwell on these details, GGaze. It happened. It is tragic no matter how it is characterized. Now it's necessary to try to accept that it happened, not matter how difficult it is to comprehend. And perhaps to accept that we may never know the full details because she may not be able remember all of them herself.
She was not acting as a rational human being at the time, let alone as a loving mother. She was acting within the context of a seriously disturbed reality and intense despondency and hoplessness. Trying to understand that is difficult, and indeed for most people it is probably best that you don't fully understand it.
David what you say makes perfect sense and it does help me to better understand how she could do what she did. Could this happen to any one of us. Is it possible that I could one day reach this point and are you telling me that there was no element of evil involved. It came out afterwards that this mom used to download articles from the internet on moms who kill their children, serial killers, etc, etc. Do you think that what happened was a combination of all these factors or was it just due to bad depression. I always thought that fear was the driving force as she was about to be exposed for the second time as a thief. This crime happened in East London, South Africa. {edit: removed name of parent}
---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------
I know that no matter how hard it is going to be that I have to accept that that afternoon was a little girl's reality and I can't change it. I wish it didn't happen but it did.
---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------
I know that no matter how hard it is going to be that I have to accept that that afternoon was a little girl's reality and I can't change it. I wish it didn't happen but it did.
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David Baxter PhD
Late Founder
It's futile to try to diagnose anyone online. All I can tell you is that the major motives are
- depression
- psychosis
- psychopathy
Thanks David. Of course I understand and wouldn't expect you to diagnose her. After her arrest she spent a month in a centre where she was evaluated by 3 experts and their opinion was that she was mentally fit to stand trial but had diminished responsibility and might have BPD. She was sentenced to 20 years per child bearing in mind that SA dishes out light sentences in comparison to the States. I pity her but am also angry with her - I am also confused. The worst is that no one saw this coming. The day before she was a bubbly friendly person and the next day a killer. This was such a senseless tragedy where two little girls died for no reason. It saddens me to even think about it. I know there is nothing I can do to change what happen and that I have no choice to accept it - I am just battling to make peace with it and I can't make peace with it just because I know I have to. Something about this loss has touched me deeply and I don't know why.
Because it's the loss of two very innocent and beautiful little girls. I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier GGaze. This thread touched my soul to its very core.
I understand your disbelief, the internal battle of understanding. Anything to do with children, and I'm right there with you.
Having said that, there are simply going to be things in this lifetime that we cannot understand. Things that are not fair, that are devastating.
The mother in this case was undoubtedly very troubled. I'm not excusing what she did. I just don't think she had an appreciation as to what was reality and what wasn't at that particular time. Just an impression I have - I've gone and read a few articles on her case...
I went through an (I don't even know how to call it) "experience" last year. For the last year, I've spent nearly every day trying to understand the perpetrator, understand why he did what he did. But, that's the problem with mental illness, it doesn't always enable us to understand motives, actions. We just have to accept that these people do things that are often propelled by their respective illness.
And, not noticing that she was going through that at that particular time doesn't make you culpable in any way. Know that some of us are really good at hiding our particular mental phases. Either because we don't want to scare anyone or, because it all makes sense at the time and we don't want intervention...
I hope this makes some sense. Sorry, I feel your grief with this thread. And, I hope that you can find peace in all of this. Sometimes, we just have to accept that tragedies happen - this is but one instance of a horrible tragedy.
Thank you Jazzey your words are very much appreciated. This is one of those times when I know what I have to do and I know I will never find the answers but knowing all of that hasn't stopped the deep sadness. This tragedy has made me question my beliefs because I really need to know that they are in a better place and are happy. It really kills me that the eldest had to go through such a traumitizing time before she was killed. I am battling to accept her last moments alive were so terrifying and that no one was able to save her. I know what I need to do but I'm just battling to do it.
Jassey thank you for taking the time to read up on this case. When I was reading your reply earlier I could not stop the tears. I have a busy and demanding job and have tried to keep busy but find that the girls do occupy my thoughts a lot. I cannot help thinking about how much they are missing out on and how tragic it is that they will never again be able to do all those things that they really enjoyed. It makes me feel terribly helpless that they are gone forever and there is nothing we can do to comfort them and make things better. I've always battled to accept that despite the fact that the eldest phoned looking for help and that everyone (friends and the police) were searching for them no one got there in time. I'm an adult and know the ways of the world so it baffles me why I cannot accept that the outcome was different. It truly shatters me everytime I think of this little girl hoping that someone would get there because she was so scared and no one did. I cannot even type this sentence without feeling absolute devestation. Maybe I just need to cry the tears and wait for time to deliver acceptance. I BEG AND URGE ANY PARENT WHO IS FACING SIMILAR DIFFICULTIES TO PLEASE SEEK HELP BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. This tragedgy changed so many lives and had many victims including the mother. Seek help as once you've done something this drastic you can never go back and change it and this type of nightmare lasts forever.
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