Voices vs Thoughts

[MHealthJo]

Glad the discussion has been of use, Je9je9 - hope we haven't seemed like hijacking too much with the fascination of each other's thought styles!

Do your thoughts ever sound younger or older than what you are?

The sounds match the chronology and the reality of where the thought is set. If it's something from the past, something I said, then my voice will match that time period. The movies are basically quite 'realistic' almost all of the time, and the details fit the reality of the 'situation' or 'setting' of the thought.

(Hmm interesting that I say that actually.... because during a time of quite a bit of depression, the 'realism' of the movies will be off - but it's hard to see that until I'm feeling better. Also of course they are about nastier subject matter and my brain has little ability to invent decent outcomes or positive events in the movie.... quite unredeeming tragedy really - and featuring pretty unlikeable characters who don't like me, for various possible or totally invented reasons, and that can include myself haha. The thoughts and movies start to fit the horrible setting that I start seeing as 'reality'; but which is more depression. Some thoughts, settings, views of people much more than others; but yeah. Interestingly, in my more recent episode, the depression wasn't new to me and I sort of... 'had its number' more... On some level, I knew that this movie was depression.... And yet at the same time, on some other level, there was belief in it too. Like I knew I was having depression... and yet, many times, I could not necessarily realise to myself "Oh yeah, this is depression, that's what this is' - when particular thoughts struck me. I would realise at some point, but at the point of having them, often not.)

So that kind of answers some of your other questions. If I'm feeling bad the thoughts won't generally be about things that i'm going to say, so there isn't a voice. The thought's likely to be say, a picture of the person who I'm worrying about and how I imagine they are going to look - say, a face wearing a cross or upset look, if I think I've done something wrong. Sometimes, just a picture of me in the situation that I'm in or worrying about. If I do berate myself, I think that's more visual too. A picture of me failing or appearing pathetic. Guess I am quite visual.

(Hmm, that's interesting too. If someone is having a problem with me, but I know I have not done something wrong and it's their problem... and I can not approve of it, but not let it get to me... then I will be thinking those unpleasant thoughts less in the first place. But even if I do a bit, they'll be kind of more blurry; less unpleasant clarity and not much ability to hurt me; also the person will seem sort of more human and vulnerable and I'm seeing them that way. If I know I'm not wrong but it has been a pretty big deal, quite a big fault on the part of the person, and I'm still quite upset, then I get more like... ANNOYING images of the person. They look more infuriating and pathetic and are painted with a bit of a dark, faulty aura. Something has to be pretty chronic and major for my brain to start painting that way though. And actually, that's a situation where I do hear my voice a lot - that will be one of the situations where I'll hear my voice saying what I'd like to say, or what I ended up saying to the person about it.)

YES I can and do think about a ton of things at the same time, and have like different 'levels' of thoughts. It depends on the situation, whether or not I can give good focus to those multiple things at once. In your example of the conversation, I don't think I could be quite paying the fullest or best attention to the conversation if I was also thinking the other thoughts. But I used to do audiotyping for work, and I could completely listen to the audio, understand and type the words, follow rules of the job in how I'm doing it, etc, and at the same time think about a bunch of other stuff. It just depends.

Wow, it sounds like you get an AMAZING experience from reading! That's pretty cool. I really enjoy something that's up my alley, but I certainly don't get background music, and while I do get the sense of images and sounds and things, it sort of varies in how vivid and clear it is. Sometimes there's quite a bit of detail and clarity, but I think it's a lot more vague still than what you're describing. The images flash and go sort of very quickly, and mix with vagueness. That's true of all my thoughts, my 'movies'. Maybe that's to do with them being interspersed with words and concepts... Don't know... The different ways the thoughts present, interrupting the flow...?

Really quite fascinating discussing this, haha.

 

[GDPR]

Very interesting MHJ,especially the way your thoughts are more visual than audible,like mine.

I thought this was interesting too:

The sounds match the chronology and the reality of where the thought is set. If it's something from the past, something I said, then my voice will match that time period.

So,in everyday thinking,it doesn't sound younger/older,it only sounds younger when it's something from the past?You never think in a younger voice any other time?For example,you never think "i want ice cream",yet it sounds very young?

---------- Post Merged at 10:22 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:04 AM ----------

Sorry if I am asking way too many questions.It's just that I have never really had the chance to ask people and actually get answers.

 

[MHealthJo]

Nope, doesn't seem to ever work that way for me - things fit the chronology.

Also, I'm pretty sure I would not be having a 'sound' type thought or a 'words' type thought in that case, anyway. I think I would see the ice cream cone. Or get a sense of the texture of the dessicated coconut or cookie dough bits that are in the flavours that I usually get. Or a picture of all the different flavours in the square receptacles.

Hmm, this discussion also reminds me of one time when I wondered how blind people experience dreams.

I can't remember how I found out, but the information I got is that they get 'senses' of how THEY would experience things. The story seemed to be that they get sound, and touch/physical sensation, things like that. (But if there's anyone blind out there who has more or something different to add, that would be really interesting too.)

Ask away! It's very interesting!

 

[GDPR]

....If thoughts can be audible,like what's been discussed here,then what exactly is the difference between thoughts and voices? Wouldn't it possible for a person to be diagnosed with schizophrenia because they hear voices,but in actuality they're hearing their thoughts? But,I am assuming that maybe in schizophrenia,the voices are coming from the outside and not inside a person's head?

Do you ever have conversations with your thoughts?Using the ice cream example,thinking "I want ice cream",but then thinking,in response,"no,I'm lactose intolerant,I can't have that",yet the first part sounds younger and the second part doesn't....?

 

[MHealthJo]

Regarding the conversing with the thoughts, and the sound of that - again it seems I'm not the best example in answering that question, because of the non-word-ness and non-sound-ness of many of my thoughts.

Hmm, quite often though, I do "talk back with words" to certain feelings/sensations/'concept thoughts'. For example when I'm remembering to look after myself pretty well, when low moods or thoughts come, quite often I can make myself 'hear' somewhat of a 'sound thought' in response: "That is just how you feel right now. That is just the negative feelings of your current mood." I think there is a voice with those. It's my voice. In that example, it has a somewhat serious and authoritative sound to it I guess. Actually depending what the response is, it can have a different tone or feel. Sometimes it humorously ridicules the silly thinking, or has a particularly kind and friendly tone.

You know what; I think I get the original thought in 'concepts' or sometimes pictures of the words, or just more vague 'feelings' really. The response thought can be sound, but can equally often be pictures of the words. I'll also get pictures of the actual sentences from the books that have helped me. Actually that's interesting... I've read books more than listened to audios; but I do get the sound of a couple of the best audios sometimes. It will be vague though... it will be like a 'sense' or a memory of how the voice sounded; but along with that sense, it will be just a.... a 'concept' of the concept I'm remembering. Maybe not actual words. Heheh, so weird.

I cannot remember whether I was ever able to do this 'responding' very much at all, before I did lots of CBT work. No wonder I felt insane. I think for quite some time writing the response down was necessary. It seems to depend. The writing part also often still seems to be necessary to get a sense of WHAT I was thinking in the first place. Also quite often, I can't get a CBT-workable thought instantly. Often takes a bit of "Blah blah. This happened. I feel so this and that. Oh it's so annoying. WHY can't this person X or Y or Z....." Aha! Eventually I get to a workable thought, haha.

I'm interested in the answer to your schizophrenia question, also. That is always how I understood it.... that with auditory or visual or other hallucinations or psychosis, there is a definite sense of it not seeming like a 'thought' at all - it seems like an outside sensing of true reality (like an actual voice coming in from somewhere); very difficult to distinguish from an outer sensing of reality.

I have to say also, I think my brain really blathers a lot on quite a lot of subjects, different angles of all kinds of thoughts, even simple and basic stuff sometimes. Often seems to be just more bigger or important things that I get this sense of actual 'Responsible Me' coming in and authoritatively laying down the law about something. haha. The rest of the time, quite often there's a fair bit of blathering and debate and more questions than answers.

 

[GDPR]

Are you able to completely shut off your thoughts?Like,if something is very upsetting,can you block any/all thoughts about it,and even if you try to think about it,you're not able to?

 

[MHealthJo]

Nope, absolutely not. Not in the slightest.

A friend and I were once talking about a negative thing from her life, and I said, "Oh man, I just don't know how you could COPE with that." And she remarked somewhat humorously, "Well, I've noticed, me and my brother, we quite often are good at just blocking something out." Half joking I said, "Oh man, I wish I had that ability." She smirked (in the humorous way that we often talked about this kind of stuff; and in allusion to certain repetitive habits and repeating-history of hers), "No you don't."

It has come up in other conversations, that she found it hard to understand (and this way of being had never really occurred to her) that, if I have a problem or a reasonable-sized worry - more so if I am not in the best state mental-health wise - then in my mind, that problem is just THERE. Just ALL THE TIME. Just LOOMING and/or dominating. It pretty much just kind of NEVER GOES AWAY really, on some level it's in the background - more so if I have not done something that seems like 'as much as I can do' about it.

Once I do that and look after myself, then I get relief and freedom from it. But it still pops into my mind reasonably often.... It just changes then, how I engage with it when it does pop into my mind.

I think these styles of what our brain decides to spend its time on, and how it then does so, often explain a lot in terms of how different people live life and engage with things, and I find that helpful in understanding people and myself. I am gobsmacked at how much variation there is from one human brain and mind to another. It's funny - all humans have a nose, two eyes, a mouth, two arms, two legs.... I mean there's certainly a lot of variation, but roughly things are pretty 'standard' in a physical sense.... But it seems like once you get to the brain and mind.... HOO BOY ANYTHING GOES!!!!! THERE'S NO RULE!!! NONE!!! Haha, maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but you know what I mean. Well, maybe the sheer complexity is what gives rise to the sheer variation.

---------- Post Merged at 10:23 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:42 AM ----------

I think my brain really blathers a lot on quite a lot of subjects, different angles of all kinds of thoughts and debate and more questions than answers.

I've just also realised how funny all of it would sound out loud, in my true 'chipmunky' voice that other people hear. Especially when it gets philosophical. Maybe I need to make some sort of Scrubs- like Youtube show, of that.

 

[Budoaiki]

I've done a lot of research into this area of hearing voices because my mother frequently has this problem. Intrusive thoughts are often the result of unresolved issues. Similarly those thoughts can manifest in the sub-conscious in times of stress such as thoughts of suicide self doubt etc. There is the possibility that they sound different because on some level there is an effort to distance one's self from those destructive doubtful thoughts in an effort to disassociate from the problem or the feelings it inspires. On the other end there is also the possibility that it is a subconscious desire to deal with the issue as well so in times of peace the voices can manifest because it's a part of you that's looking deal with it which can trigger all kinds of stress responses.

 

[Daniel E.]

Intrusive thoughts are often the result of unresolved issues

Similarly:

Voice therapy involves encouraging patients to verbalize their voices in the second person and develop insight into the voices' origins. Next, patients answer back to the voices and recognize the connection between voices and destructive actions, and lastly they collaborate with the therapist to change these behaviors.

The Inner Voice that Drives Suicide

Although it is relatively easy to elicit the destructive voice process and bring it to the surface, voice therapy is not a short-term procedure or a simple cure-all. It is impossible to conceive of "cure" without the patient being able to change the fundamental aspects of the way he or she is living out his or her defensive structure...

All people exist in conflict between an active pursuit of goals in the real world and a defensive reliance on self-gratification. An individual who chooses to cultivate life and lead an honest and undefended lifestyle will experience both the joy and pain of his or her existence. In contrast, the defended person's attempt to block out pain neutralizes the life experience and deprives the individual of life's enrichment. To the extend that individuals succumb to a defensive posture, form addictive attachments and habit patterns, and choose an inward self-protective life, their adjustment will suffer, and it is unlikely that they will approach their potential. Retreat to an increasingly inward posture represents, in effect, a form of controlled destruction of the self. Anything that threatens to disturb an individual's solution to the core conflict arouses fear. Descending into this process more and more and withdrawing investment from real life often creates the necessary conditions for suicide....

Voice Therapy

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

When I read, I seem to imagine different voices for different characters, although the narration is usually in my voice.
When I remember music, or I am thinking about it, I hear the music. Like I hear it on a radio. So I hear the singer's voice. Sometimes I am bothered that I can't quite remember what the lyrics are, but I can see the singer and hear his voice, but it's like I only hear the tone or melody and not what he's saying, so I have to listen to the actual song.

When I am dreaming, I seem to hear my voice, but sometimes I am not physically myself in the dream, although it appears that I am in that character's body. So my voice may change to "match" the person I am in the dream. You know, those dreams where you have a sense that you are you, but you look like someone else?

When I am thinking to myself, I hear my own voice, but it's somewhat muted unless I am typing, like in this post. It seems more clear and cuts through better than when I am just thinking.

There was only one period of time in my life where I heard a very loud, very insistent voice in my head that didn't seem to be something I was generating myself. It was the oddest sensation. I was in a very abusive relationship and as a result usually lacked the proper amount of food and sleep, among other things...

I kept hearing a very distinctive voice... And it kept repeating the same thing... I think it was, "What are you going to do?" I remember it was the last word that had the emphasis on it. So weird to me. I haven't heard anything like it since. I suspect my brain was trying to spur me off my passive arse and do something to save myself. That man I was with had threatened my life more than once and was very controlling and prone to rages.

---------- Post Merged at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:54 PM ----------

LIT:

Are you able to completely shut off your thoughts?Like,if something is very upsetting,can you block any/all thoughts about it,and even if you try to think about it,you're not able to?

Are you talking about when you were a child, and if you experienced a trauma, you couldn't remember it?

 

[GDPR]

No,I'm talking about now.

 

[je9je9]

Glad the discussion has been of use, Je9je9 - hope we haven't seemed like hijacking too much with the fascination of each other's thought styles!

Really quite fascinating discussing this, haha.

No, I appreciate everyone's input and am interested in reading about other people's thoughts.

 

[GDPR]

am interested in reading about other people's thoughts.

I'm interested too and was hoping more people would share theirs.

I have been trying to be more aware of what my thoughts are,especially when I am upset or stressed. That's when I start having so many different thoughts at the same time. And that's when I tend to listen to the ones I shouldn't and act impulsively.

---------- Post Merged at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:26 AM ----------

Sometimes I wish there was an app for my brain,one that could hear my thoughts and help me sort them out and tell me which ones are rational.Maybe someday that will be possible.

---------- Post Merged at 10:44 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:30 AM ----------

I hate that I am so impulsive sometimes and do and say really stupid things.I worry I will get myself in serious trouble one of these days.

The thoughts though,they sound so convincing at times.They sound so logical. An example would be that I start thinking I should throw something at someone.And I do,impulsively,without taking the time to think it through.

 

[je9je9]

I'm interested too and was hoping more people would share theirs.




Sometimes I wish there was an app for my brain,one that could hear my thoughts and help me sort them out and tell me which ones are rational.

.

I wish there was an app like that, too. I have often wondered what other people's thoughts are like because sometimes my head feels really hollow and sometimes it's so full of racing thoughts I can hardly stand it. I've never thought before about my thoughts having a voice. They're so visual. If someone asks me if I want an ice cream cone I get an image of an ice cream cone and from that I determine if I want one or not. Often I don't answer people right away because I am busy looking at the picture of the ice cream cone, though I don't mean to do that. If someone asks me what I did over the weekend, I have to visualize it before I can answer.

 

[MHealthJo]

I used to get frustrated with my husband because if I ask certain types of questions, he processes them incredibly S-L-O-W-L-Y. And he wouldnt say 'Ummmm...', or anything while he was thinking. I thought he was totally ignoring me!

He also takes AGES to decide which take-away dinner or lunch to get sometimes.

---------- Post Merged at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:51 AM ----------

Also this thread sparked me having a real-life discussion of what other peoples thoughts are like. Interesting. Someone else had 'vague movies' but said they can't picture faces very clearly. Another gets very clear pictures of people and faces. I can't remember what the others said though....

---------- Post Merged at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:55 AM ----------

I used to get frustrated with my husband because if I ask certain types of questions, he processes them incredibly S-L-O-W-L-Y. And he wouldnt say 'Ummmm...', or anything while he was thinking. I thought he was totally ignoring me!

He also takes AGES to decide which take-away dinner or lunch to get sometimes.

....Whew, but you should see the speed that he can jump to a conclusion or inaccurately mind-read sometimes, though.

 

[MHealthJo]

Sometimes I wish there was an app for my brain,one that could hear my thoughts and help me sort them out and tell me which ones are rational.Maybe someday that will be possible.

The thoughts though,they sound so convincing at times.They sound so logical.

Obviously I don't know, LIT, how much you have chatted to your T about the impulsiveness, the sudden reduced ability to make rational decisions, and things like that. I also am not an expert on to what degree these factors can be treated for each person, what ways are best for treating it for each person, with the different issues that each person faces.

But if you have not very much already, do have some good chats with him, focusing on these worries. He may be able to offer some very useful exercises or things you can do, that can possibly improve the brain's self-regulation in the moment? (Not sure what exact field of brain function it would be called.) Ways of training the brain beforehand, or "practicing beforehand", the situations that tend to be a concern for you?

Another thing that came to my mind is an exercise that comes from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy - the exercises that focus on values. Even just a simple one I did recently, where I went through and chose about six 'top values' that I want my life to be about, from a list. Made it easy. (It's okay even if your current life does not yet reflect those values very much. The main thing is having them in mind, and then each time you make a little decision that goes with those values, you've got a little win.

Also, if it is very hard to choose which values are top for you, you could even spread yourself out a bit more - Take a period of time, like three months or something, and choose a bunch that are going to be the focus for you for that period of time - perhaps some things that you are concerned about currently or would like to focus on just for that time period.)

I am sure the emotions and thought patterns are extremely overwhelming at those times when you're in trouble, so I don't know how useful this would be. But it did occur to me.... If you had in mind, a list of those values you want to aim for.... Maybe that would make it easier, looking at those values, and asking yourself, "Does this idea I have, this thing I'm about to do, does this go with those values? Is it congruent?"

There are also exercises where you use the values you have picked, to define goals. Then, you could use your goal list - ask yourself whether a certain thought or idea helps, or hinders, the aiming toward a certain goal. Whether it goes with the goal, or against the goal.

Your T could also be useful in making these lists.

Depends whether you could recall those values and goals to mind at the time, I guess. I am remembering the 'brain hijack' thing in PTSD and things like that......

Not sure. But always remember too that if I know you a little bit - then you're usually actually further ahead and doing better than you think you are; and still asking really great questions and thinking in good directions.

 

[GDPR]

Then, you could use your goal list - ask yourself whether a certain thought or idea helps, or hinders, the aiming toward a certain goal. Whether it goes with the goal, or against the goal.

That sounds like a good idea,however,It's very,very hard to stop and think before saying/doing impulsive things.My T seems to think practicing mindfulness will help me more than anything. I try to,but I don't always remember to.Maybe it will get easier as I practice more.

 

[MHealthJo]

Yeah. I am sure I can't comprehend how tough it must be - not having that 'gap' between thinking and doing, and trying to figure out how to widen it..... Maybe neuroscience will yield more helpful knowledge for it as more research is done.