Current crisis with my problem sister

[SuzyCerca]

Hello. My name is Suzy and my major problem right now concerns my sister, let's call her Ashley.

I thank anyone in advance who takes the time to read and consider my concerns. Please feel free to post your thoughts, even if you disagree with me. I need a forum to express these things and part of that means being willing to listen to the advice that comes my way!

So, here goes!

My sister, we're calling her Ashley, is what people call "a real winner, a drama queen, a toxic person, an energy vampire, a user".

I am not a psychologist, but in my long quest to keep a good relationship with her, I have read enough to suspe ct that she shows behaviors associated with geniuine personality disorders. Ashley has a few qualities I have read associated with Histrionic personlity disorder, a few behaviors associated with narcisstic, yet others associated with dependent personality disorder. In addition she demonstrates symptoms of Irresponsibility Syndrome and is a master at Covert Aggression.

She blames everyone else for everything, takes personal responsibility for nothing, whips up trouble, screws things up, wants all the attention, is disrespectful, irresponsible and emotionally immature. She convenietly "forgets' and denies whole episodes or conversations that don't suit her. She manages to somehow turn everything into a big deal, a kerfuffle, an issue that revolves around Ashley in some way or other. Nothing is ever simple.

People that know her only superficially can find her charming and don't understand why both her sisters keep her at a certain distance (our parents are deceased).

Ashley regularly does things that bring me to the point of anger, arguing, extreme frustration - to the point of distraction actually.

The kind of things that if you just tell one story at a time, could sound like "Oh big deal, she's your sister, just overlook it," but when it is dozens and hundreds and thousands of time, all the time, every time... it forms a pattern almost of abuse, and you just can't let it go on that way.

Suggestions from me and one of our closest friends that she could use a little therapy were met with derision.

After a lot of reading and soul searching and some counseling myself, I quickly realized that I had to detach myself from Ashley's antics and could not take personal responsibility for her. I vowed to be nice to her and try to keep a good relationsihp, but not get sucked up into her vortex nor take responsibility for her life. This worked pretty well for about 10 years.

However, since our last remaining parent died three years ago, some new problems have come up.

First, interfering family members who feel that I should be doing more to "help" her or "fix" her. I realized that my parents were covering up a lot for Ashley in the extended family and now that she has to carry her own weight she is failing miserably.

The other family members don't realize that I have already been through the mill with Ashley and cannot do any more. I am sure they mean well, but they are seeing only the tip of the iceberg. I tell them "as you can imagine" I have been through a lot with Ashley and that she is responsible for herself. I tell them that if they want to do something for Ashley, they should go right ahead and do so.

But they don't want to do it, they want me to do it.
Further complicating things is the fact that Ashley and my new husband of two years cannot stand each other. To begin with their personalities clash. He tried to be nice to her but figured her out right away, and like many newcomers to a dysfunctional situation, won't take the nonsense. And naturally he does not care for the stress and distraction that she brings to my life, even in her "contained" state. Ashley treats him with disregard and disrespect (sometimes does not even acknowledge his prescence at gatherings), acts inappropriately in his presence, undermines him to other family members, says I would be doing more for her if it were not for him, makes underhanded jokes at his expense and makes fun of me when I point it out.

It is never enough of a scene to "walk out" or "not attend" but just enough to make us uncomfortable and prefer to avoid certain gatherings.

Ashley has gone behind my back and encouraged family members to "take sides" and ostracize my husband and I while "rallying around" Ashley. Since they already felt I was not "doing enough" for her, it was easy for her to win them to "her side".
On one hand, I realize that one problem person is capable of putting a whole family into an uproar and I do not want to be a part of that.
I also know that , given time and exposure, others will likely see the complexity of the situation and realize that I and my husband have done nothing offensive to anyone that deserves this treatment.

And I have read enough to know that these types of people always manage to come off smelling like a rose while leaving their victims stinking like cabbages.

At the same time, I am hurt that everyone would turn on me so quickly without considering that I might have good reasons.
I know she is hoping this ostracization will make me 'do more for her' to get 'back in the fold' but it won't work.
It makes me sad that sometimes doing what you know is right for yourself inevitably means a change in your other relationships.

I do not know what else to do other than hold my ground and do what is right for me and my husband, even if it results in me being the black sheep.

 

[GDPR]

Hi Suzy.

I actually felt sorry for your sister when I read that. Why? Because it's probably what my sister thinks and feels about me. Especially when you said "She conveniently 'forgets' or denies whole episodes or conversations that don't suit her", and when you said "nothing is ever simple".

Have you ever considered that maybe your sister really doesn't remember, and maybe she's not just saying/doing that to cause problems? Or that maybe everything really is a big deal from her perspective?

It does sound like your sister needs some kind of help. And I understand that she's not your responsibility,and how frustrated and angry you are, but maybe she's not doing all of this on purpose to cause chaos or get attention.Maybe she truly does have an illness.

 

[SuzyCerca]

Yes, actually I have considered that but I do not think it is the case. The reason I do not think it is the case is that she excels at a demanding job in which she deals with dozens of people, remembers every detail about them, and never forgets the tiniest details from this morning or 20 years ago. She only forgets when it is something she does not want to talk about. When she announces that she forgot she does not express the least concern about either the person inconvenienced or the usual embarrassment a person would express when admitting forgetting something that normally would be remembered. But then she will talk to someone else with full recollection of whatever it is that she claims to have forgotten and admit the real reason she did not live up to her commitment. If she is called on it, she denies it.

She has been doing this her whole life, since grade school, where the teachers flagged her a chronic liar.

From my experience with other people with cognitive impairment due to stroke, dementia or medication, this not a case of it. I think it is more to do with being a chronic liar, which I did not mention before.

I agree with you that she probably believes everything is a big deal but I think that belief is part of the problem. She was used to my mother doing all her bidding and has not developed the normal ability to deal with adult life.

I do think she does it on purpose when she wants attention but does not realize she is doing it or that it is not normal.

I do think it is a personality disorder but I do not think they are considered an illness per se. Usually they need therapy but not medication.

 

[Miss Paynter]

Suzy, what is most important here is for you to hold your ground against others who feel you should be continually stepping up to help your sister. Sometimes when you're the most predominant 'carer' for people in these situations, the expectations of others can be selfish. They don't want to contribute to the same extent themselves but expect that someone should be doing it - you.

I have a similar situation with my sister who I've been 'caring for' since she was in primary school. Always the one to save her from going under - lost jobs, poor/no relationships, urgent house moves, terrible disputes with employers and friends and chronic financial instability. What I realise now is that my willingness to come to her rescue, enabled others to sit back, not concern themselves overly much, comfortable that somehow I would find her another job, house, friend, rent payment. Everyone was happy. I was meantime, seriously out of pocket and under pressure to always come to her aid. See, I loved her and felt very keenly that she didn't really get a great childhood and as she was the youngest, it was my role to look after her. A surrogate mother in a way.

Now my sister is in her mid 40's. Nothing has changed - except me. After another crisis during which I was loudly (and publicly) berated by her (apparently I have 'everything' and my life is a bowl of cherries and 'it's not fair' etc.) I came to the conclusion that no matter how much I gave, I would always be the 'Marcia Brady' to her 'Jan'. I say this lightly but it was a much uglier experience and not unfamiliar to me.

That's when I stopped. Everything. No more money, no more assistance, no more 'whipping girl'. And yes, like you, other siblings have questioned my pulling back, tried to make me feel as if I've somehow shirked some responsibility to this grown woman. I have maintained the stand -' if you feel she is in genuine need, you help. It's your turn'.

Guess what?

No-one has.

Guess what else?

She's fine.

The dramas continue for sure but in a funny way, she's managed to resolve them herself, become more responsible. She's kept a decent job for quite a while now and seems to be supporting herself. She, and others still blame me for 'not being there for her' heck - I'm living with that!!!

Look after yourself....

MP

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

I tend to agree with Miss Paynter....

I have a mother with NPD, and one of my brothers is a lot like her. Instead of letting him learn things on his own, and become independent, my mom has coddled him his entire life.

As a result he has poor coping skills, poor socialization skills, can't keep a job more than a few months, depends on them for EVERYTHING.

It's a very volatile relationship. My mom, being someone with NPD, likes to control people. So when my brother gets angry he blows his top, because she's always nitpicking on him. Fuss fuss fuss. And he also resents that he has to rely on her and he's 40 years old. He wonders why no woman like him for very long (other than to use him in some way) but I don't think he's that great of a catch if he's still in momma's apron pocket.

Anyway, if any of your family members criticize you about how you should live your life and how you should look after your sister and this and that, criticize them right back. Get downright pissed if you have to. "How dare you make assumptions about what is going on in our lives. My sister is completely capable of looking after herself. Why should I interfere in her life? Why are you telling me what to do with mine? Why don't you go do all this nurturing you think she needs?" 8P

Polite assertiveness is the ideal, but some people "don't get it" or can't take no for an answer. It sounds like they've been a bit relentless. If my brother came knocking at our door, I would NOT let him stay with us. I would tell him to stay with friends or at the YMCA. He's an emotional vampire, he's a terrible disgusting slob, and he doesn't understand that just because we are family we don't want to be taken advantage of. He doesn't "get" boundaries. The last thing we want is this person with a big black cloud over his head darkening our lives. He's a mooch. He doesn't know any other way because my mother didn't let him learn anything to be independent. It's not my job to teach him. I am not going to confuse compassion with letting down my boundaries and abandoning common sense. I would be afraid of how he'd be violent or drinking or using drugs, and I don't want that crap in my home. Not to mention that we have a dog, and he used to constantly pick on our family dog when we were kids until the poor thing would be whipped into a frenzy, hiding in the closet, barking and growling.

Have you been to therapy about this issue? Because it's nice to get validation from someone, when everyone else is seemingly against you.

 

[SuzyCerca]

I also had fallen into the Surrogate Mother role - NOT a good place to be.

I finally realized that by "helping" her so much I was actually disempowering her. I see your sister also when faced with sink or swim, is learning to swim. Not matter how old a person is when they learn to be responsible for themselves, it is definitely better late than never.

I can tell from your comments that you have been through similar experiences. And I recognize that unless you have, it can be hard to understand the cumulative impact.

The irony is that I am always there for her when there is something legitimate even if it is not life or death and I actually do go out of my way to help her out when I can. But then it becomes a big deal so I stop doing it.

Here is the latest little kerfuffle as an example, which shows what I mean by "forgetting" and "nothing is ever simple". We have an aunt who lost her daughter so since then (25 years) the nieces and nephews have always given her a Mother's Day gift and card. I never knew it till my mom passed, but when my mom was alive, she used to pick up a gift along the way and then let Ashley give it to her. So the year after my mom passed, Ashley asked if she could chip in on my gift because she was too busy to shop. So always giving the benefit of doubt I said ok. (mistake #1)

Come the day, I ask for her agreed upon share and she says Oh I forgot my wallet. Then Ashley calls me afterward and berates the gift, how awful it was, she could have done better, she was almost embarrassed to have her name on it, and she bought MUCH cuter gifts for her two friends right at the gift and card store. HUH? I thought she was too busy to shop! AND she never gave me the money. So I tell her in the future we have to go separate on gifts. Another big debate but I stand ground.

Come the 2nd year, I call her two weeks before Mothers Day and say remember we are not going in together in the hopes of avoiding an incident (mistake #2) . She says Why, I remind her. She first says she doesn't remember the gift incident. I remind her of the particulars, then she denies it ever happened. I tell her it did happen and then she says she will give me another chance to buy a good gift this year, providing details about the gift ad why she didn't like it and bringing up the exact words of the original incident, proving that she did in fact remember the whole thing. I tell her we are going separate. period. She shows up with no gift and asks to put her name on MY gift because my aunt's feelings will be hurt. I say I am sorry that my aunt's feelings may be hurt but NO. She tells the others that she forgot her gift at home and will send it. She never sends it (because obviously she never had it). She calls whole family with stories about how we were supposed to chip in, then I would not let her, I am so unreasonable, blah blah blah blah. Family members call ME to berate ME how horrid I am. I tell them that last year it was a problem with her not liking it and not paying for it, and that I told her since last year and again two weeks ago that we were going separate, but if they feel this way THEY should chip in with Ashley.

Come 3rd year, two weeks before I call Ashley to remind her we are not chipping in so as to avoid an incident that day (mistake #3 it did not work last time, why did I try it again!!!). She calls the rest to complain about this again and they call me to persuade me to just buy the gift, do not make a big deal, I tell them no but if they are so concerned about it, they can go in with her. Once again I am berated and insulted because Ashley has told them she is too busy and I am buying a gift anyway so why is it such a big deal, why won't I do her this one little favor, blah blah blah. I tell them the same applies to them, and in the time Ashley and they have wasted on the phone criticizing me they could have ordered flowers. Once again Ashley shows up with no gift but no one else will chip in with her or put her name on theirs. Tells aunt she forgot gift at home. Aunt asks if maybe she put it in the same place as last year's gift Another round of blame to Suzy with nasty emails and texts while poor Ashley is just a victim.

Come this year, having learned from my previous mistakes, I just bought my own gift and did not call anyone to remind them of anything. After Mothers Day I just won't answer the inevitable calls that pour in to criticize me for not helping Ashley.

Come next year I will do all the above AND if there have been more nasty calls, I will simply arrange to see my aunt privately and not answer the calls so I do not have to deal with all this crap.

Now take all this unnecessary nonsense and multiply it exponentially to get an idea of where I am at.

And to be honest I cannot comprehend really why the family sees it this way, but if they do they do, I am just not going to give in to the pressure.

---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------

Hello jollygreenjellybean, and thanks for your comments.


I think sometimes parents make a mistake when they perceive a child is a not too competent, they coddle them instead of trying to make them stronger.


I try to be "politely assertive" without arguing. One person got the message but the others keep trying. THe last round of conversations I expressed by annoyance and exasperation and said outright I did not want to have these conversations again. Other than avoid the conversations I don't know what else to do.


On one hand I seem to recognize that they are with my sister where I was 15 years ago - thinking she just needed a boost and would get over all this and mature. I don't want to get mad at them for not having the experiences with her that I have and having seen the light because I believe that will come. Also, I know how persuasive this type of person can be. I am very simple and straightforward and can't play those kinds of games, or at least not well I have outright said they should do it themselves but it falls on deaf ears.


About 10 years ago I did some counseling and quickly saw I was falling into the roles of surrogate mother and starting to become overresponsible.


I noticed the answers for dealing with all sorts of difficult people seemed to always be the same: acknowledge any role you may have played (sometimes with good intentions we still do the wrong thing), set your boundaries reasonably and then stick to them respectfully.


When I decided to change my behavior with her I took her to lunch and told her that I loved her but felt I needed more of my own life and to set new boundaries and that probably meant she would have to stand on her own two feet more because I was no longer going to be able to help her with certain things. She tearfully said she understoon and hoped we could still be close and then proceeded to deny the conversation ever happened and act the same way. But my reactions were different and that is when she started to undermine me.


It was easier to hold my ground when it was just Ashley but now it is a whole family. I don't think I really want to take on a whole swarm of relatives head on and just accept that right now this is how they feel. I need to be prepared for the reactions and just not put myself in the position anymore. Deep down I know that eventually they will all (more mostly all) see the light. Not that I want them to turn on her, but I think they will see that it is not fair to expect things of ME.


I don’t want to epitomize the famous saying about continuing to do the same thing but expecting a different result. They’re going to do what they’re doing.


Hurtful as it is to me, they are not doing this expressly to hurt me!


I suppose wanting some venting and validation is why I posted here!

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

It was easier to hold my ground when it was just Ashley but now it is a whole family. I don't think I really want to take on a whole swarm of relatives head on and just accept that right now this is how they feel. I need to be prepared for the reactions and just not put myself in the position anymore. Deep down I know that eventually they will all (more mostly all) see the light. Not that I want them to turn on her, but I think they will see that it is not fair to expect things of ME.

Well, I agree with you completely.

My worry is that in families, the NPD is sometimes widespread (passes down from one generation to the other). At least that is the way of things with my family. My dad's dad was very N and did mean and abusive things to him and there was some mental issues on my mom's side (I don't know if it was because my mom's mom was N, but she had some depression and other issues)... On my mom's side there was/is alcoholism, pedophilia, controlling and manipulative behaviours, etc.... So then I have no relatives on my mom's side that I talk to anymore, because I simply don't trust them and I am protecting myself. I talk more to people on my dad's side of the family. There are a few that I completely trust. I don't communicate any longer with my own parents. Too toxic. I tried low contact, didn't work, so no contact.

Anyway, just saying I certainly DO hope that your family IS genuinely trying to help, and not also displaying interfering qualities of NPD. Some people (ACONs, Ns, etc) try to jump in and rescue everyone all the time. How typical of someone who has Narcissistic Personality Disorder to try to convince another person to take more responsibility for someone the N person doesn't want to take care of themselves. It just screams to me of "red flag." When someone does that sort of thing to me, it feels like they are trying to use me as a minion to do their bidding, and therefore indirectly interfere with someone else's life through me. Sorry if I am mistaken, and I sure hope I am. Perhaps the rest of your family is actually trying to help. It's just that healthy folks kind of get the idea that NO means NO a lot more quickly, whereas manipulative people keep doing the broken record thing hoping you will eventually cave in to their wishes. It's like you never said "No" and they take it as a challenge. Or they accuse you of things: lack of intelligence (Ns try to insinuate that there must be something wrong with you if you don't do what they want you to), neglecting your sister (twist the knife of guilt), whatever tools of manipulation they prefer... They're as persistent as water, and will wear a rock down.

But if you keep doing the broken record right back to them, and don't let them phase you, then you'll at least be at a continual loggerheads, which basically you win because you don't back down. *water off a duck's back* *water off a duck's back* *water off a duck's back* lol

 

[SuzyCerca]

To be honest similar thoughts crossed my mind...as soon as I used the word "swarm" and because I feel like it is too much to take on. The others probably all have similar tendencies maybe I don't know of... I think sometimes dysfunction spawns dysfunction and becomes a pattern; it also explains why it is so easy for her to stir the pot - if they're also a little histrionic/narcissistic?irresponsible that makes me Marilyn among the Munsters.

 

[rdw]

Rather than worry about all of them just worry about you - how can you best handle this situation; how can you best handle a question from them; what you plan to do with yourself today to quit worrying about this problem. People are going to believe what they want to believe. The more you try to get them to believe what you want them to believe the more enmeshed you become in your sister's drama. Let the other's learn their lessons - it is their lesson to learn.

 

[SuzyCerca]

Yes, this is excellent advice and I thank you for posting.

I read something today which said that our energy goes where we put our attention. The more I focus on it the worse for me!

Rather than worry about all of them just worry about you - how can you best handle this situation; how can you best handle a question from them; what you plan to do with yourself today to quit worrying about this problem. People are going to believe what they want to believe. The more you try to get them to believe what you want them to believe the more enmeshed you become in your sister's drama. Let the other's learn their lessons - it is their lesson to learn.