Denying the Father's Role when Mother is a Narcissist

[David Baxter PhD]

Denying the Father's Role when Mother is a Narcissist
by Beth McHugh
June 8, 2009

One of the more painful aspects of detaching from a narcissist mother is acknowledging the role that the father plays in the family dynamic.

I have had many clients who, once they have identified their mothers as suffering from narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), have to then look at the unpleasant truth of the role their father played in maintaining the status quo.

Often my clients proclaim that their father was "wonderful", "warm and "loving" and he may well have been all these things. But the truth is, he allowed his wife to systematically erode the budding egos and personalities of his children. This passive neglect then leads to enormous pain to the child due to the unusual attachment that children of narcissist have with their parents.

Of course, this equally applies if the father was the narcissist in the family and the mother was the so-called "normal" parent. Again, the truth is that a well adjusted person would not marry a narcissist in the first place, or if they did, the relationship would flounder as the more well-balanced partner attempted to modify the unrealistic narcissistic demands of the spouse. In effect, the marriage could not survive. Where these marriages continue over time it indicates that the "normal" spouse is either giving in to the demands of the NPD sufferer and in turn, damaging his or her children as an unfortunate byproduct. Alternative, the spouse could simply be turning a blind eye to the goings on, living in their own world and leaving their unfortunate offspring to take the full brunt of the narcissistic behavior on their own.

This is too much for a child or young teen to deal with alone. In some cases, their may be overcompensation by the so-called "normal" parent in the form of gifts or activities, so that the child naturally comes to worship this parent as being the "good" parent while identifying the NPD parent as the "bad" parent. This is where the beginnings of much of the "black and white thinking" originates that is so common among adult children of narcissists.

But as in all matters nothing is truly black and white and a full recovery from the influence of a narcissistic parent involves the realization that both parents played a part in sustaining and maintaining the narcissistic atmosphere in the family home.

 

[Jazzey]

...I came back to this thread. I'm currently dealing with this issue in therapy. I never appreciated the impact that my dad had on me and some of my life decisions...

The hardest part has been that I'm just terribly wounded. Not angry, just feeling rejected, not important enough to matter to the one person that I really held in such high esteem. He checked out on me and my siblings. He was there through the worst of it. But did nothing. He saw a lot of things that I don't think a parent should see.

As angry as I am with my mother, the sadness that I feel for my relationship with my father takes the greatest toll on me. And I'm afraid that I'll become angry with him too - and I don't want to be angry with him. I can't - he's this soft, gentle, intelligent person who's also been dealt a raw deal in this lifetime. And yet, he's so comfortable now at placing me in the buffer zone so that he doesn't have to deal with her tougher issues.

Again, the truth is that a well adjusted person would not marry a narcissist in the first place, or if they did, the relationship would flounder as the more well-balanced partner attempted to modify the unrealistic narcissistic demands of the spouse.

I know. That's what hurts.

 

[Andy]

Ugh. That's some harsh memories and feelings to go through. Surprisingly enough I relate to you on this as well as with the mother thing we talked about before. Do we have the same parents? lol
My dad is quiet, and gentle and basically means well. Out of the three of us he left 2 and took one with him. That was a double slap in the face. I never looked at it that way though.

I think if your going to deal with emotions like that you really do have to go through ALL the emotions. I think. I don't know. I just mean that maybe you have to deal with the anger if it does come up and then move on from there. What will happen if you do get angry with him? I mean besides it being uncomfortable.

I have never dealt with any of my past so I can't say how I dealt with any emotions.

I know that was absolutely no help what so ever lol
I do think it is so great that you are "going there" though. I just wanted to let you know that i relate to this post as well.
:support:

 

[Jazzey]

You're always helpful STP And thank you. :hug:

I'm sorry that you went through what you went through. Why am I afraid of being angry with him? Good question STP. I think because I've spent a lifetime protecting him from her. Even now. If I get angry with him, I feel as though all of my 'realities' are gone - every last one of them. My Dad was / is a mentor of sorts to me - he's taught me a lot of practical stuff. I learned from him how to take care of my car and more.

The memory that comes back to me often - I came back from the fair one night. I'd been there with a few friends and the boys there had been particularly mean to me. I came home in tears. I couldn't talk I was crying so much. I remember him sitting at the kitchen table talking to me about boys all night - and making me laugh about the whole thing. I remember the first time that I was sexually assaulted- he took a bat and was taking off to deal with it - it took me the better part of an hour to dissuade him. He was my go-to person on so many levels.

Acknowledging this other side of him, I feel as though I have to qualify all of those other things (which by the way - occurred at a time when my mother wasn't living with us - just me, one of my brothers and my Dad..) - those were actually the best years of my life...

My instinct is to protect him. I don't want to be yet another person that beats up on him.

STP, if you don't mind my asking, why haven't dealt with your past? Doesn't it bother you on some level?

 

[Andy]

Awww your dad does sound awesome! I can see what you mean about feeling like your turning on him.

Maybe try not to think of it as being like your betraying him, but think of it as getting rid of all the ugly stuff to make the relationship even better. lol I can't think right now so hopefully that made sense.:blush:

Are you dealing with this in therapy alone or are you anticipating having a conversation with your dad about it at some point?

My past. That's kind of funny because if you knew how long I have been in the mental health system, most people would assume I had at least done that much!
It is partly my own fault and partly...actually it's mostly my fault I guess. When I was younger and was first introduced to the mental health system if someone asked me about my past I usually just dismissed it like it was nothing. I think I did that enough times to make it stick. lol I actually had somehow managed to pretend it didn't bother me and believe it myself until almost two years ago when my brother decided to hash up things because of some psychology project. He put things in his perspective, how he saw things as we were growing up and I don't know why but I think since then I have been one angry chick.
Yes it bothers me a lot.:crazy:

 

[Jazzey]

Are you dealing with this in therapy alone or are you anticipating having a conversation with your dad about it at some point?

No, I can't talk to him about this - he'd be so wounded.

My past. That's kind of funny because if you knew how long I have been in the mental health system, most people would assume I had at least done that much!
It is partly my own fault and partly...actually it's mostly my fault I guess. When I was younger and was first introduced to the mental health system if someone asked me about my past I usually just dismissed it like it was nothing. I think I did that enough times to make it stick. lol I actually had somehow managed to pretend it didn't bother me and believe it myself until almost two years ago when my brother decided to hash up things because of some psychology project. He put things in his perspective, how he saw things as we were growing up and I don't know why but I think since then I have been one angry chick.
Yes it bothers me a lot.

Ahhh...More common ground STP. I've been pretty good at saying "I'm fine", "I can deal". And yet, it's definitely all come back with a vengeance. All of my dreams lately are about my teenage years. Weird. While I hate to admit it - those were quite a long time ago now. :lol:

Funny how we can convince ourselves about things like 'it doesn't bother me'. I hope that you'll be able to work through this stuff STP - I really think it's important. As long as we stiffle, we're only hurting ourselves on so many levels. This stuff has really affected me on so many levels of my life - and I'm only getting that now...

:hug: :support:

 

[Andy]

LOL I have seen what some of the things my brother has thrown at my dad, have done to him. I don't think I could talk with my dad either. I would feel guilty. Shocking!
Maybe with your issues with your dad, that could be the first thing you work on before anything else. Work on why talking about him negatively makes you feel so bad.
I feel like I should be saying all this to myself.
Your right, we do things to protect ourselves, but it just hurts us. lol Irony.

Thanks Jazzey,as always it was nice to talk with you. I hope you have a good night. :support:

 

[Beth McHugh]

Hi, I wrote the original article on this very important issue which is often neglected, especially when the non-NPD parent is looked upon as the comparative hero in the family. It is imperative to address this in therapy because it gives a more accurate picture of the whole family dynamic plus it allows the anger and sadness about the situation to be alloted to the correct sources instead of blaming one parent for all the problems in the family. Recovery is quicker when more of the truth -- the main identity lost in narcisstistic families -- is revealed. For help in this area you can contact me at Your Online Counselor - Beth McHugh - Online Psychological & Relationship Counseling
Best wishes,
Beth

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

I've reluctantly come to the same conclusion as a few people here. I have asked him things, like "Why do you stay with her." And he says he loves her. My youngest brother flat-out told him that because of my dad's passivity there were things wrong with our family, and my dad felt so hurt to hear the truth. And it's so true that he is partially responsible for the mess we're all in. He's chosen to be with my mom, and says things all the time like, "You have to pick your battles."

Mom asked me when I was around 12, did I love her or dad more? I said I loved them both the same. She said that it's normal for a daughter to have a better relationship with her dad than her mother. I don't know why she said that... I kind of felt that she was rejecting me and telling me to leave her alone and go talk to my dad. But later in life, my mom got jealous when I would try to visit my dad often while she was at work. She didn't want to miss out. Soon it was understood: don't come over to the house unless they're both home, or don't come at all. So we stopped coming as often (used to come several times a week) and only visited once a week for a long time. Even that got to be too much and we made it more like a couple of times a month. Then that got to be too much and we started visiting less and less (at least my husband and I and my youngest brother). My mom simply got jealous and is even more protective of anyone trying to steal him away from her, especially his extended family.

The thing about our relationship and how we were raised is how I had such a terribly twisted view of what a true relationship was (work and personal relationships). My dad has modeled that if you really love someone you take their abuse day in and day out. You never stick up for yourself, your kids, or your extended family when the abuser attacks them, you never protect yourself. In fact I don't even think he SEES the abuse, or refuses to believe it happens. His wife is perfect. Everyone in the family thinks he is such a warm and loving fellow, which he is, but it's really an odd kind of love. My mom always said things like, "Your father never helped with the discipline. He left it all to me." Well, my dad was physically abused by his dad, and I do remember when we were very young getting our butts welted up with his belt. It was like my mom would get whipped up into a frenzy, and yell at my dad to do something, and that was his solution. Then he'd get berated from her for giving us the belt producing welts. He would get so angry about how we kids didn't squeeze the toothpaste up from the bottom of the tube and snarl about it, but then my mom would say we kids were too little to manipulate the huge toothpaste tube with our little hands. He'd snarl, "WELL I HAD TO DO IT WHEN I WAS A KID SO THEY CAN DO IT NOW!" I think I was the oldest and I might have been around 5 when he said that. Hell, at least we were brushing our teeth! lol But maybe his dad whipped him and beat him when he didn't do stupid things like squeeze the toothpaste up to the top of the toothpaste tube.

He also was guilty at least once of kicking a hole in the closet door. He's smashed his fist on the table and broken one of his fingers. Once in a while she does get under his skin and cause him to lose it. But then he always has felt shame and remorse about his loss of control. He waited days to go in to see a doctor about his hand because he felt silly that he had hurt his finger by losing control.

We kids also learned to suck it up and take the heat. We also learned to punch holes in walls, and kick things. I couldn't get my mom out of my face so I would bash my head against the walls and try to cut or rub skin off my arms/hands. I still have a faint scar on my hand. My middle brother tormented our family dog until she was a nervous wreck hiding in the front closet lashing out at everything.

So that's the part my dad played. He did nothing, and it didn't do much. He was there, but it was like he wasn't. He would escape to the computer games, or watch TV or read the newspaper, garden... Lately, maybe about 10 years ago, we noticed he started drinking alcohol a lot more. Don't know how much he drinks now, but maybe it numbs him a bit.

It pains me to stick him behind the wall I'm building with my mother, but it seems I can't have my dad if my mother comes with him in a package deal.

 

[Frazzled]

I thought my father understood a fair amount as well. By some of his reactions it was like I was burning him with the experiences I had with mother. I know he is aware but recently I have found out that he and my mother have been "ripping me to shreds" to my aunt. I am so devastated because I thought he would at least be able to stick up for me at least a little. I have been given the validation of what I thought was going on. I am deeply wounded and have essentially given up on being able to fix or even be in their presence at all. Even the most benign coversation has turned into some kind of attack from me. I feel as though my dad has been talking out of both sides of his mouth and I can trust him as much as I trust my mother, which is not at all. I have decided to give myself a break and have a no contact time. I feel like it could be an extremely long time before I can talk to them. Even my aunt says she doesn't want to talk to them and dreads her next conversation. Man, this really sux!

Frazzled

 

[Livn]

As a child my mother would scream, throw things at me, and on occasion hit me. I remember my father coming home from work and my mother screaming at me and smacked me in front of him and all he did was sit down on the couch and watch tv. He would get angry at me if I would **** her off... ( which could just come from me coming home from school!) Where else was I supposed to go? He would ground me and send me to my room for the rest of the evening. Once, my husband, my 1yr old, and I had moved in with my parents for a few months. My father cussed me out for no reason to the point of which I started crying. I confronted him the next day, he denied it, just like my mother does. Then I went into the kitchen and started going off that she is the one who causes my dad to take out his problems on me. (Really, they both do, just my mom is the narcissist) The next morning my mother tried to stab me in the kitchen with a huge knife. My father came rushing home from work and said, "What did you expect?"

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

OMG, Livn, I am so sorry you had to deal with all of that. My mother was the Narcissist, my dad was and still is a bump on a log.

 

[rdw]

Those problems are serious cases of abuse; a knife attack, swearing and cursing that is beyond narcissism and really abusive. I hope you are no longer living there and have no intentions of subjecting your daughter to that environment.

 

[ivy]

Frazzled i understant. Both my parent tag team me all the time. I feel they are both NPD. They make me feel crazy!!! I'm trying to limit my contact but just this morining my father called saying i have a letter from the bank and want your husband to read it for me. You see my NPD dad thinks i'm stupid and do not understant anything. I feel like a child saying this!! But thats how they make you feel. when i was a teenager he diidn't teach how to drive he taught my 9 year old brother i was to stupid. At 48 years old i drive, but he does not allow me to drive his van I'm too stupid. They are both NPD. At this age i finally woke up. I've been reading about NDP and i'm going to move soon i hope. I sturggle every day. we live in the same building! It's been a nightmare hoildays, brithdays, vacations. Now i truely know i'm not crazy!!!!!

 

[Frazzled]

My mother seems to have successfully convinced my father that I am mentally ill and that what has been happening is made up in my mind. It's funny that I seemed to be having a group hallucination because my husband and my son saw and heard these things. I had no idea that hallucinations were viral. I am continually frustrated that he was so easily convinced that I am crazy. He used to tell me all the time that I was the most level headed daughter he had and blah, blah, blah. I felt I have been manipulated since the day I was born and conditioned for this role that they assigned for me. I have a ton of resentment because I had no right to an opinion or individual feelings unless given permission by them. It makes me sick thinking that I was so easy to control. Now, I have the freedom that I didn't have for most of my life and I want to do everything. Go to school, I competed in a body building competition and have different hobbies that are unusual for a woman. Nothing harmful just different and multi-faceted. I just wish I had done some of these things earlier. Freedom is sometimes frightening and it feels like a rush. I just wish my father would have had the stamina to stand up to my mother but he was and is under her "spell" has well, that's to easy, he lets her do a lot of what she does and that concept is sometimes hard to accept but I am working on that.

I think your intelligence is threatening to your dad and he wants to suppress it. Don't feel bad, I have family that does that too. It's not nice when you are on the receiving end. Keep your chin up!

 

[poppy111]

my father is similar to the men you've all described. he's kind hearted, gentle, he doesnt say much though. i dont know him as a person.

My mum took complete control over everything. my dad was only there for holidays. i always preffered my dad. i remember him smacking my sister once, and my mum came flying up screaming at him for hurting her. and cradling my sister. We actually had no respect for him whilst we grew up, my oldest sister would call him pathetic. i probably had more respect for him than my siblings, although my mum would gossip about him to us. we never did what he told us too.

she was violent towards him, i thought this was normal behaviour until i threw a cup at the feet of my partner.

she also instructed my dad to kill our pets, horses, cats, dogs. and i dont know whether to hate him for this or not???

With my children now, my mum insists that their father takes a backwards approach, he does nothing whatsoever for the children, and when i see her, if they misbehave, she bangs the table and screams at them. so i think she belives she has more control or more rights to discipline and influenece my children then their father.
she also gives them lots of sweets even though i say no.

he will never accept what my mum is, she is perfect, i am the evil child who is abusing my mother, i am wrong. and that is that. whether he has been abused by her or not is irrelevant.

 

[Sonya]

My dad was and is the same way. I used to feel so sorry for him, having to put up with her screaming, hitting, and throwing things at him. He never took up for us and I thought that was normal when I was a kid. My NM was abusive to him and her kids in every way possible, and my Dad would just stand behind her and say "don't hit them in the face". Thanks, Dad.

She left all 4 of us kids with him when they divorced. He wasn't even the father of my sister and I, only my 2 little brothers. I was 12, and had to take over the role of housekeeper, cook, mother, everything that she ran away from. Instead of being grateful that a 12-year-old would step up like that and go to school and make good grades, he berated me if supper wasn't on the table when he got home.

He worked odd hours and I never knew when he would be home. He wouldn't let me leave the house unless it was spotless. My sister read her books and didn't help me much. My brothers just made messes for me to clean up and he never made them help. When I was 17, I had just met my soon to be husband (I didn't know that then). He came to pick me up for a date on Saturday night. My Dad asked where I was going and I told him that I had a date. He said "you're not going anywhere until this house is cleaned". I had just cleaned the house. He pointed out some of my brother's socks and said that I needed to do laundry. I disobeyed him and left the house and went on the date. When I came home that night, all of the doors were locked and I didn't have any keys. I banged and banged on the door and my Dad nor by brothers would let me in. My date and already driven away, so I went to the backyard to the shed and slept on the dog's blankets. I could hear rats running around. When my Dad went to work in the mornings, my brothers would unlock the door so I could come in and eat and shower. I had to leave before he got home from work. I lived like this for several weeks. I wasn't about to tell the guy I just met that I had been locked out of the house and was living in the shed.

The NM came back after all of us kids left home. They are still together some 30 years later. He is still being abused daily by her. I don't feel sorry for him anymore. His brothers and sisters (he has 9 of them) think he is the most wonderful person on earth. They have no idea what our childhoods were like or that he is still being tortured by her.

I stopped contact with both of them about a year ago. It is a sick situation. Always has been. I refuse to take part anymore. He didn't protect me when I was a child, and I won't protect him now.

 

[rdw]

Both of your parents sound abusive - equally responsible for the misery of your childhood. I hope you are receiving some counseling for your past trauma.

 

[Sonya]

Thank you, RDW. I didn't see my dad as abusive until I was a teenager. I saw him as a victim too. All of us kids felt sorry for him. He turned into someone else once my NM left when I was 12. He turned the tables on me and talked to me like he wished he could have talked to the NM - mean and hateful.

My siblings still feel sorry for him but I don't because, like you said, they were equally abusive. He was the only person who could have saved us from her but he chose not to.

I haven't had any professional therapy. I'm almost 50. I think I have been able to overcome my past on my own, but I may need therapy. How do I know?

I see both parents as mentally ill. I have stopped contact with both of them. My daughter asks me how I could be such a good mother when I had such a terrible mother.

I finished by education and have had a good job for 25 years at the same company. I have been married for 31 years to a man who values and respects me. I have many good friends and I am still in contact with some family members. Mostly the ones who see my parents the same way I do.

Am I just fooling myself? I am so afraid that I will somehow get sucked back into their drama because they only live about 5 miles away. My NM leaves me voice mails almost daily but I don't listen. I just delete them.

I think I am strong enough to stay away from them, even if they get sick and need me. My siblings don't seem to realize how mentally ill my parents are. They tell me that they've "blocked out" their childhoods. I haven't blocked anything out and I refuse to pretend that we had anything close to a normal upbringing.

Going no contact with the parents has caused my siblings to distance themselves from me. I just have to take it for what it is. They refuse to see. I don't. They come running when my NM fakes an illness. I don't.

I guess if I was truly okay, I wouldn't still be reading and writing about it. I just don't know.

 

[wanda20]

I came to this thread tonight because my dad is dying of prostate cancer. I heard about it in June this year. My mum is a narciscist. We have an on and off relationship for the last 12 years. I have detailed it in other posts on this site. He is in the last stages. My dad has supported my mum in her behaviour for all my life. I have good memories of the things Dad and I did together up to the age of 35 when I tried to find my own identity and moved away interstate when my brother died. I found it a great sense of relief to not have to deal with my mothers need to control my life and her narcisstic tendencies. Anyway, I won't go into detail that again.

I am so hurt that Dad won't see me, because my mother is the "gatekeeper" to access to my dad. She originally told me that I was not to see Dad at his deathbed or attend his funeral. Then when I sent a card and letter to him on Father's day recently, I said my goodbyes because my mother's need to be right was more important than be seeing my dad when he is dying. They do not expect him to last out the year. In the last letter that Dad sent me (on the back of the letter I sent him saying my goodbyes) he said everything I had written was wrong and he didnt want me to contact him anymore and to "leave him in peace". Would you believe, my mum wrote on the same letter, "you can work it out with your dad, not me. do what you like." Dad has never sided with us when mum was around. I hate more than I can say, but if I don't grovel back to her, I won't be able to see my dad before he dies.

I am blaming myself for the situation and angry at the same time. Has anyone experienced something similar with a narcissistic mum and a co-dependent dad? I am at a loss to know what my next step is. How can they do this? Am I that unimportant? Mum wrote back on my letter that "she never stopped loving me and they always wanted to see me." But they never let me back in without a rehashing of all her past hurts and pains that I have caused. And then when I apologised it was not sincere. I don't what to do to see my dad before he dies. Thanks for letting me talk on here.

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