Family Problems

[heatherly]

Thank you. I will check them out, and I didn't know there was a Narcissistic forum.

---------- Post added January 11th, 2012 at 11:25 AM ---------- Previous post was January 10th, 2012 at 11:57 AM ----------


Jolly, I could not help myself and ended up emailing my sister who when I sent her the article on forgiveness didn't read it but talked to my oldest sister about my still being upset over the funeral, and neither of them understanding why I am not over it. This is what I wrote:


hi,

it seems that you don't quite understand why i can't get over the funeral either. had you read that article i sent you would understand part of the reason. it is bascially that you and (name removed) have lied by saying that you don't recall ever thinking i took the money, when in fact you know you believed this. why tell jerry that i was a clyptomaniac if you didn't believe i took the money. but also, you both accused me of something that i consider to be horrible, stealing from mom. it was attacking me in the worse way and telling our bother about it and the kids. i stay away from family as much as i can, even from that brother (name had been removed) because i really don't know what anyone really thinks of me, which is why i have often thought to get a lie detector test, but then a psychologist said, they would just believe that you were able to pass it, so don't bother. so no, i will always be friendly to my family, but i will always feel hurt because no one cares enough to admit their mistakes and just wants me to "get over it." never will.

love,

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Fair enough. That's odd that they pretend they didn't accuse you in the first place, that's for sure. It's like the Narcissistic amnesia. Gaslighting is another phrase for it. That word came out because of a play; basically when you gaslight someone, you MOSTLY use the truth, but you just slightly change it. So every detail except one might be different. Either that or outright stubbornly denying things over and over. Basically they make you start to doubt what you actually saw or experienced. It sounds like you have a terrific memory and you're sharp and you must have a relatively healthy self esteem, so these tricks didn't work with you. You don't doubt yourself even if someone tells you over and over that you should. Gaslight (1944) - IMDb

 

[heatherly]

It helps that my oldest brother and his wife stood up for me and reminded me that they saw me packing up the car, and I told them I was leaving, and they walked into the house and the buzz was that I took Mom's money. At which point they all got into a fight over it with my brother and his wife leaving. He stood up for me for which I am eternally grateful. But yes, they wanted me to believe that I was the one who just thought that they thought that I took the money, which I know differently. I remember every horrible word. When you are being accused you really remember things because it cuts you. That is gaslighting, another term I forgot even though I saw the movie, which was a good movie. Those tricks don't work on me in this case. The other exfriend I had been friends with a year ago tried the same thing by denying that she ever said the things that I said she said, and she would do this right after saying them, and then she said that I twisted everything. Now she had me going for a while, and that is why I went to the psychologist, which didn't help much and I came on here with it which helped, but then making friends with an ex friend of hers (just wo months ago)really helped because she had the same issues with her. So gaslighting can work on me a little. And I think this ex friend made me doubt myself more than anyone. She was really crazy making. I hate that we both go to the Unitarian church and that she smiles and hugs me now, but I try to move away from her and not run into her. My other friend who goes there says she tries to remain nice to her so she won't talk about her like she did me, and I said, she talked about you to me anyway.

---------- Post added January 12th, 2012 at 10:44 AM ---------- Previous post was January 11th, 2012 at 11:52 AM ----------

Here is my answer from my sister on that email I sent:

"I'm sorry I thoght our chat was good. I guess I left you feeling badly. I don't recall saying that to you nor do I feel that.I understand completely. and truely."

She won't read the article, won't discuss, won't admit anything.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Wow, talk about refusing to see reality and constructing history herself... lol

 

[heatherly]

I wrote her again, and she said this: hi sis... I am sorry you are going thru so much pain. I will try to find my letter with my feelings from that day.
I know I must have it somewhere deep in my computer
but I will have to wait a few days. I am a mess over waiting for my results.
Hugs you tight

It wasn't just two days ago that she and I sister were disgusting this issue together, but she is putting me off now with this waiting for results still. Her notes never ever had her admitting to believing I took the money. So I wrote both my sisters a long letter and mailed it yesterday. I do not expect them to ever admit that they harmed me. Part of me wonders if bringing up a 7 year old issue is wise but another part of me says that this has always been between us and more than likely always will.

This is what I wrote with names changed:

Itseems that it is very easy for you both to talk about my still being upset overwhat happened at Mom’s funeral than you are to talk about it with me. So I willtalk about it with you both here:

Iremember it like it was yesterday. Jean, Lettie, and I were in the car goingto San Luis to pick up my VW bug. Cilla called and asked Jean if she knewwhat happened to the $40 of Mom’s, and Jean said that it was all in theenvelope last night. Then I heard Jean say to you, “I know that Lettie didn’t takeit and neither did the maid.” That left me, didn’t it?

Iget home, and the issue continues, and I begin making jokes due to beinguncomfortable because I can hear that I am being accused, and then all thesudden Cilla tells Sandy (Jean's daughter) and Jean that I am a shoplifter. I sat there inshock to think that my sister would reveal a secret that we had several yearsago when I lived in Berkeley and used to shoplift, but now the secret wasrevealed and it was stated as if I still shoplifted.

Itwas obvious that Sandy believed that I took the money because when I woke upthat morning when she arrived, she was cold towards me. And as things went on,Jean, you made it clear that you thought I took the money too, and my beingupset with you over this made you upset as well, and Cilla came to me and said,“You need to apologize to Jean because she is hurt.” I was shocked again.What did I have to apologize for? What did I do except to stand up for myself. But Jean’s feelings were more importantthan my own. But like a fool I apologized, and then I said to you, Jean,“But I want you to know that I did not take the money,” and you, Jean, just snickered and said, “We have a member inour family that stole from us and we still love them,” meaning that in spite ofmy stealing I was still loved.

Andthen I talk to John (my younger brother), and he said that Cilla told him that I was akleptomaniac.

Andyet you both deny ever believing that I ever took the money, and as Sandy oncesaid to me, “Get over it. We still love you.”

Itried often to get over it, but neither of you understand what it meant to me.I have told you why it bothered me and still does, but you don’t listen anddon’t care. You only think about yourselfand covered up your part in it. All you want to do is deny that you felt I tookthe money. And then to realize that all of John's kids think I took it aswell. How humiliating! (When my brother walked into the house after I packed and left it was John's kids that ran up to him and said that I took Mom's money.)

Iwas stupid to have ever given in when I wrote that first letter to the both ofyou saying, “If this is what you think of me, then I want no part of either ofyou.” To think that you believed the maid and Lettie over your own sister, tothink that you believed that I would steal Mom's money, especially sinceshe was dead.

Ilearned something in psychology the other day, and that is this:

When you give away your forgiveness withoutthe perpetrator going through all four stages (confession, contrition,restitution and repentance) you show that your forgiveness is a false form ofit and not something to be desired. Say you approach someone whom you know hasinjured you, and they deny they ever did it. They adamantly refuse toacknowledge their debt to you. Now let’s say you go ahead and tell them thatyou forgive them anyway. Here is what you have accomplished. You've clearlyindicated that you think so little of yourself that you don't really expectthat you deserve any restitution when someone takes from you. What you callforgiveness is a cheap imitation. Now you've insured that the perpetrator isactually rewarded for taking from you. He came out ahead!


Ihave even thought this my own self over the years, that I had tried my best toforgive you all because I thought it was the right thing to do, but how thisnow probably caused my family to believe that since I gave in so easily, I mustbe guilty.

Youboth have a debt to me. If you can’t admit that you thought I took the money,then you are doing me wrong, and you have been doing me wrong for 7 years. Iknow you believed I took the money, and to say otherwise is to say that I am crazy,and the technique you are using is called “gaslighting.” (Gaslighting “is a formof psychological abuse in which false information is presented to the victim,making them doubt their own memory and perception.”)

Sonot only did you both do me a disservice by accusing me of thief, but you alsoadded insult to injury by gaslighting me afterwards.

Idon’t expect that either of you will ever admit what you have done to me, butdon’t expect that this will all blow over, and I will allow you back into mylife unless you went through the four stages as presented in the red coloredparagraph. And I would have to feel deep within that you really meant it.

Jean,love is “not ever having to say you are sorry.” Love is being sorry for hurtingothers and trying your best to never do it again. You both have said you are sorry, but I reallyfelt that you were just trying to appease me so things can go on as normalbetween us all.

Andhere is more of what I have learned:

Narcissists are notorious cheats in theforgiveness transaction. You may get them to admit that they wrongedyou, but do not let yourself think that means you now owe them yourforgiveness. There are three more steps. They rarely may get to the secondpart...that of showing what appears to be sorrow for what they've done. But they will lie, cheat and wiggle to avoid the next two veryimportant parts of the forgiveness transaction. Do not be snookered by a cheat.

Your gift of forgiveness is valuable and you shouldn't mark downthe price to fire sale prices. By the way, your forgiveness is never owed toanyone. True forgiveness is always a gift. A gift must be freely offered. Extortion isnot a way to legitimately gain it. If you don't want to give it, that is yourchoice. You must be satisfied that the person who wronged you is serious intheir efforts to rectify their wrong. If you are not satisfied, you do notowe them your forgiveness. As soon as someone says you owe them forgivenessyou have absolute proof that person is not genuinely repentant. Or you have anosy holier-than-thou persecuting you from the sidelines. Either way, don't cowto the pressure.

Jeanyou also often wonder why I don’t want to be with family at a reunion, besides justnot wanting to make the trip. I had enough of family at the funeral. I believethat John and his family think I took the money, and I believe you bothbelieve it, as well does Sandy.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Well, there you are.

You've spelled it out very clearly. If they still deny it, I suppose you have the choice to accept them for who they are and that they won't change and take it from there...

That's a lot of proof (especially the kids, because they repeat stuff their parents say)... Hey if you were ever a witness to a crime, you would be a star witness!!! lol

 

[heatherly]

It is so hard to know the right thing to do, even to know if I should have brought it up again. But so often in my family I am hurt over other things that are said, such as if I talk politics with my sister Jean and she doesn't like what I say, she begins to attack me personally like Mom did. As if not accepting her beliefs was attacking her personally, so she attacks me personally.

My family will let it go. Jean will not answer; instead she will be upset, and then Cilla will be upset with me for upsetting her and begin denying again. I left out other things in the letter, like asking Jean why would I not steal the entire $80. And she said, "Because you thought we wouldn't notice if you only took $40." How did I even know the money was in some dresser? How did I know that they even knew about it? But I didn't ask them those questions.

So I may be without sisters because I don't feel like giving in again. If they want me in their life they can fess up instead of denying it all.

---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ----------

Since I can't edit the post I made above. I talked abuot this with my husband and gave him the article, Forgiveness. Here is what he said besides telling me that they are too self centered to apologize and don't expect anything:

He said that I have always forgiven them and people in my life without asking them to to admit their wrong and apologize, and so I have been dumped on again and again. I told him what was happening and that I wrote a letter to Jean and Cilla, but that I don't expect them to ever admit their wrong. We talked about how when Mom and my step dad quit talking to me how Cilla and Jean said I was at fault. My husband said that my older brother is the only normal one in the family and has stood up for me.

and I sent a copy to my sister-in-law telling her giving her the letter and telling her what my husband said and how she said that her husband is the normal one in the family who always stood up for me and she wrote:

"You did a GREAT GREAT job with this. So well written!! HUG HUG! Did you send as a written postal letter or email? If you sent it as email, you might want to resend as postal mail- studies show postal mail is read in more depth by some people because it is in print and in their hands.

Would be interested in any response you get (if any). I truly believe they not will get it. But this is their loss.

Your husband is RIGHT ON! And obviously we agree with him since this is what we have said all along. sure wish we could get to know him better.

all of this support has really helped.

 

[heatherly]

My sister Jean just called and was in tears. Said she got my letter and then admitted to believing that I took the money and said if she had been blammed she may have never spoken to the family again. I thanked her and said that this meant all the world to me to have her admit and say she is sorry. The other sister said she has to look at her notes and will get back with me.

 

[heatherly]

I had hoped this would all get settled, but I really don't think my sister Jean believes that I didn't take the money, and my other sister insists that she never thought I did. I wrote her: Then why did you tell our brother that I was a kleptomaniac, why did you tell me in front of Jean and Sandy that I was, Why when I packed and left the house, you didn't come to tell me that you believed me? why did you give Mom's necklaces to all but me and then say there are no more left, and why when i wrote you that I didn't want to have anyone in my life (this after the funeral) who thought this ill of me, you never answered?

and so all she wrote was: I tried so hard to fix it then. And couldn't. And I can't now. I was sorry then and still am. my feeling s of what happened has never waivered.

What she said happened was only that she was questioning it, but that she didn't believe I did it.

How do I get pass this?

I told her this:
and neither has mine. you were so angry with me at the funeral, believing i took the money and now not admitting it. otherwise you would have told me that you didn't think i took the money, and when i wrote you and jean that letter when i got home from the funeral you never wrote to say, i didn't think you took it. i am unwaivering here as well.

they seem to think that i don't recall taking it because i am a kleptomaniac. and I don't believe that jean believes me now. she just wants peace.

 

[heatherly]

I want to continue with this family saga in hope that it may help someone else along the way.

It is almost obvious to me that Jean really just apologized and admitted that she believed I took the money in order to keep me in her life, but I will play this by ear.

Cilla, on the other hand has kept with her stance of I never believed you took the money and would not go into detail or read what I sent to her; instead she called and cried about her minor surgery coming up. I told her that I still did not believe her, and she wrote back, I will miss you and I have never been rejected by a family member before.

In the mean time my guilt kept coming back up. I talked with another friend about this and she said, "It isn't about the $40; they don't like you." A light bulb went off in my head, and I know I have been told this before, but not is such a short sentence. My mom talked against us to each other all the time because she didn't want us to like each other. It worked. And in little ways over the years I have had digs from them and just let it go.

Then I remembered how I got out of my depression years ago, I used positive affirmations as a mantra, silently saying them all day, and I was cured. Now I am saying, "It is all going to be okay." and I say this whenever I begin to think about them. And in my mind it also means that they are going to be okay without me too, and then I thought, "Isn't that egotistical to think that they will be terribly sad without me?" And so I just go back to thinking only, "It will all be okay." And it is working.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Psychology bills: $100 a visit

Phone and internet bills: $60 per month

Lightbulb moments: Priceless

 

[Thehurtstopshere]

A Christian friend of mine said that she believes in forgiving her and allowing her to visit. I am not a Christian, left that long ago. I tried Buddhism, and their view was to not let what they say bother me. I am no longer Buddhist either. This belief of not complaining that someone has hurt you doesn't set right with me. It smacks of allowing people to abuse you.

Sadly..If it weren't for Christians, there would be more Christians..

I try to keep in mind that forgiveness is healing for the forgivER and isnt so much for the forgivEE. Also, that even GOD expects that if we go asking for forgiveness that we do it feeling truly, genuinely "sorry" and that we then try to not repeat the action..thats not the same as..I forgive you for hurting me even though you arent sorry and will probably not think twice about doing it again...

More people have suffered and died in the name of religion than anything else and its sad. Good luck to you and I commend your strength and insight. peace and Love

 

[heatherly]

thanks so much to both of you.

 

[SuzyCerca]

I would like to thank you for this post!

These quotes are excellent for someone who is trying to strike a balance with a difficult family.

Difficult people seem to think that "forgiveness" in a family means just letting them get away with anything and not letting it bother you when they continue to dump toxic waste on your head over and over.

These quotes really put the focus where it needs to be.

Thanks for posting these.

Only reason I don't want to post them is they might be interpreted as "diagnosing" which I am not trying to do. I have found several links of different sources and sent them to you... Some of my favourite quotes:

"Yet, there is a difference between forgiveness and excusing; forgiveness is not excusing someone for hurting you. Forgiveness is not choosing to ignore a mistake that someone made or deciding to reconcile an offense that pained us. Forgiveness is not giving up or accepting ones behavior toward us when it was clearly wrong or immoral. Forgiveness does not give the permission to continue the action that hurts us. Forgiveness does not necessarily mean that there must be complete reconciliation in every situation."
Posted 21st September, 2011 by Tim Thurman



Forgive or Excuse? -- for reprints of this tract, contact the Order of St. Luke at Order of St. Luke; P O Box 13701; San Antonio, Texas 78213
"A lot of the people I have met believe that to forgive someone means to excuse what they have done, and to continue to relate to them in some sentimental sort of love. "Forgive and forget" is the phrase that is often used. The problem is that when we forget, we will have to forgive again until we take seriously the fact that the one we forgive is capable of the behavior that made us angry in the first place.

I recall hearing the Lord say one day, "Forgiveness is the elasticity of my love. It is what enables you to stretch to love a person who has broken the image in which you had held them." It is not simply to excuse someone who made a mistake. It is the decision to love someone the way they have shown themselves to be, rather than the way you thought they were.
To excuse someone implies that they could have done better if they had tried harder. The truth is that anyone will choose to do what they believe will best fulfill their lives at any given moment. That applies as well to the murderer as to the saint. We may change our belief system tomorrow; but we will use the one we hold at the moment of decision.
To forgive means to recognize that reality and accept the person as is. It may well mean that you report a person to the legal authorities when you forgive them. It does not mean that you exonerate them. It means that you forgive them and follow forgiveness with love."



"When you give away your forgiveness without the perpetrator going through all four stages (confession, contrition, restitution and repentance) you show that your forgiveness is a false form of it and not something to be desired. Say you approach someone whom you know has injured you, and they deny they ever did it. They adamantly refuse to acknowledge their debt to you. Now lets say you go ahead and tell them that you forgive them anyway. Here is what you have accomplished. You've clearly indicated that you think so little of yourself that you don't really expect that you deserve any restitution when someone takes from you. What you call forgiveness is a cheap imitation. Now you've insured that the perpetrator is actually rewarded for taking from you. He came out ahead!" Monday, July 16, 2007 - Anna Valerious

 

[heatherly]

You are so right Suzy. My family thinks that they can say and do anything and as I was told, "Get over it." My own younger brother said this: "Nothing anyone says to you in our family should bother you." I think it ended with while we are disfunctional we love you type of answer.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

I hear ya!

If you're normal, and you're in a dysfunctional family, everyone in the family thinks YOUR dysfunctional!

"What's this?? Weird! You want to be normal?! Are you crazy??"

 

[heatherly]

You are so right Jolly. I was treated like I was adnormal because I wouldn't put up with it. I was chastized because I packed my suitcase and left during the times I came to visit and found myself in the lion's den. I was always treated like it was my problem. My older brother did the same, and my younger brother recently said to me, "oh, you know him, "he always gets upset over nothing and leaves." Of course, his wife would leave too, and she is a head nurse and also teaches classes in communication skills. But it goes beyond treating you like you are the dysfunctional one, it is that you are "mentally disturbed," "crazy."

 

[heatherly]

So after twomonths or so from the time of sending my sisters a letter with one respondingand apologizing right away, I get a letter from my younger sister, and it is aletter that I sent to her right after my mom's funeral 8 years ago, one where Itold them both what bothered me at the funeral, that I didn't like beingaccused of stealing. As I said the older sister apologized right away, but thisyounger sister sends me the letter I wrote 8 years ago, and one she sent to me8 years ago, if I ever got it.

I emailed andasked her if she still believed all she wrote in it, and she emailed back, Yes.I wrote again to question her about what she believed, because basically Icouldn't believe that she could still believe, especially since my older sisteradmitting thinking I took the money. She wrote, Your email was overwhelmingwith words, and I told you how I felt that day in my letter some 8 years ago. Ican't feel any different now."

I wrote, “Thenneither can I." and it was only half a page of questions, so I wrote backand told her what I felt about her letter and haven't heard from her, which isfine. Basically, she said she wrote to prove that she never thought I took themoney at the funeral. The letter never proved it. Get this: She said that Momtook the money (Yes, our dead Mom), and that it was Mom who caused us all toget into a "family drama." And then she blamed me for our brother notspeaking to her because I should not have told him that we were fighting, andshe said that my older sister wasn't accusing me, that I was just paranoid (andI said in my letter, that I am sure she didn't read, that this must mean thatmy sister lied when she admitted to believing that I took the money recently).And then she said something that always bothered me about her when we talked onthe phone, and it had to do with her telling me that I was paranoid: "Ithink you just got paranoid over thinking people were looking at you strangely.You were feeling uncomfortable and assumed that. (assumed people thought I tookthe money) I can understand how you would do that, but you have no proof exceptyour own feelings. Sometimes our feelings are right and sometimes they areplaying tricks on us."

And that is how she has treated me since the funeral, if not before. If I toldher that I was upset with a friend and why, she would deny me my perceptions,and I got to where I didn't like talking to her about things, especially sinceI have dealt with a few strange people in the few years since I have moved tothe State I am in. So I told her that she did this to me all the time, not thatshe read the letter.

But to her I should not have told my brother what was happening, and now hedoesn't speak to her, not that she calls him.

I also "run away from my demons," she said, and I should have stayedand faced what was happening. I told her that the only demons I run from are myfamily. This is crazy. I guess I should have accepted the abuse I was gettingfrom everyone. But I like how she said that I "have no proof." So shedenies the proof that was there, i.e. my sister admitting that she thought Itook it; my brother saying he walked into the house and the kids said I tookMom's money, and then my brother telling me that she told him that I was akleptomaniac.

I hope it is over with. I am so sick of her. I went back to my therapist justto get her view point. It was the same as my own, and she said that she willnever be any different on this. She won't budge. She blames everyone butherself. I was glad to have her see what I was dealing with in my family.

And last of all, in her letter, she shares her deathbed experiences withMom, and then she sends me a Xerox photo of the family.

 

[Wolverine]

Communication problems with my family,all the time they call me how lazy i am,how useless and that i don't care for nothing,i have emotionally stuck,i am one step from to visit psychologist but i still thinking for the money,i don't want to ask them money for this,i must keep it as a secret for my self.Things going worse and worse,i don't have any support from them,everytime we disagree.

 

[heatherly]

i am back in exactly the same situation. (brief run down. sisters accused me of stealing my mom's money at her funeral. brother was on their side, other brother my side. one sister finally admitted that she believed i took it and she was sorry so we are friends again. the other two are busy denying it, said it was my own imagination, and now, we all remember things differently.anyway, the one sister sent me a stupid christmas gift, and i gave it away but i called her to thank her for it and she was cordial on the phone and tried twice within a minute or two to get off. then i wrote her and told her to not send me any more gifts due to all that has happened. my brother, well, never hear from him, but his wife sends me a gift once a year. i told them to send no more because my brother had been unwilling to talk about these things, saying that my brother and his wife didn't know what they were talking about when they said that the family was talking about me being a thief. i don't understand the denials, but what is worse, is my sister wrote again and said that "It's not how I remember it. I never once said you did it. You have read my letters I have not wavered my feelings. I felt the whole thing was horrible. Sorry I couldn't fix it then and I can't now." Maybe i should be able to let it go, but i can't. i feel like they are gaslighting me. but i feel that because she is my sister i should lie and say, okay i believe you, but that would be lying to myself. I get really angry and bummed out over this. i want to do the right thing. i was brought up believing that family was important and you had to always forgive them and have them in your life. i know my sister is lying because she admitted it over a year ago, that is, admitted that she talked to my brother and said that i was a klepto but she said she was only questioning whether i was, and then the story changed when she she called my brother and he said he didn't remember. so now she says there is no proof, and it is in my imagination. is there a book i can read to get over this? sometimes when you are being gaslighted you no trust yourself either, but i wrote it down. thank you.