Narcissistic Wife

[sthpawil]

My wife and I have been married for five years. We have two children, a 3.5 year old son and a 2.5 year old daughter. I am 40 and my wife is 33.

If my wife is truly narcissistic, what is in the best interest of our children: 1) Remain married so that our children can be raised by two parents under the same roof? 2) Get a divorce so that our children and I can have time to ourselves and not have to deal with her all of the time?

As our children get older, the way that she acts towards them troubles me deeply. Even though I am aware of her narcissistic ways, it is emotionally difficult for me to deal with. Daily life is a roller coaster for me. I can only imagine what our children are going through.

What really got me going on this was an interaction with our son this past weekend. My wife became upset at all of us over something at breakfast. Later that day, my son and I were talking and he said "mom gets mad at me and [his sister] when we don't do what she tells us to".

I have five years worth of evidence to support my claim of her being narcissistic (emails, family, friends, her family, her friends, etc). It all started making sense to me once I heard about narcissism.

I will hate myself if I don't do what is best for our children. Please help.

 

[Jazzey]

Re: Abusive Narcissistic Parents

Welcome to Psychlinks sthpawil .

You ask really tough questions. I think that the parameters may be a little wider. For instance, is your wife willing to seek counselling? Does she recognize her behaviours around her family and others? Do you still want to be married to her? And I'm sure that there are other questions that I haven't thought of yet.

I'm the daughter of a woman whom I would consider a narcissist. She's never been formally diagnosed though, and she doesn't believe in psychiatry or psychology. She also doesn't recognize how, over the years, she single-handedly destroyed all of her immediate family. Her family, while still loving her, are only shells of who they could have been.

All this to say, I don't know enough about your particular situation. But, please keep informing yourself about narcissism and place those children ahead of anything else.

Maybe you could consider seeing a psychologist to help you deal with the situation? to get an objective perspective on this situation. Would you consider that for yourself? Just a thought.

 

[sthpawil]

Hello Jazzey, Thank you for the reply.

Before I had ever heard about narcissism, I had continually asked my wife to go to marriage counseling and she always refused. In one way I think that I am lucky that she didn't agree to go as I read somewhere that often counseling only allows the narcissist to further control their victims.

I lived the first three years with my wife not knowing what the heck was going on. If you have lived with a narcissist, I don't have to tell you how unpleasant it is. Two years ago I learned about narcissism and it has helped me a lot. However, the forums that I visited have been mostly full of people who wouldn't do anything about their situation.

Luckily I have arrived at a place where I am at peace with doing whatever has to be done in the best interest of our children. It that means staying together, so be it. If that means getting a divorce, so be it. I don't care about anything but our kids right now.

Meeting with a psychologist for my own sake doesn't interest me too much. Even though my life is a daily roller coaster, I am aware of what I am going through. I just deal with it the best I can. I don't think that me seeing a psychologist would resolve anything....it would just give me someone to talk to.

A shoulder to cry on might be good for me, but that isn't my concern right now. I don't want counseling so that I can understand my feelings....I want answers to important questions so that I know what is in the best interest of our children so that I can take the appropriate actions.

Time for me to go for tonight....I'll be back tomorrow.

 

[Jazzey]

However, the forums that I visited have been mostly full of people who wouldn't do anything about their situation.

Yes, I can appreciate that. It took me a long time to appreciate that I needed to do something about it. It's not laziness or anything like that. It's just that, depending on the person, it's easy to fall prey and believe the nastiness. To second guess whether it's about them, or about you, as a person. For many years, I chose to think that it was about me - I really believed that my mother had been dealt a raw deal.

It's only after a real life changing experience that I was able to appreciate just how much damage she's really done to me, to my thinking.

Luckily I have arrived at a place where I am at peace with doing whatever has to be done in the best interest of our children. It that means staying together, so be it. If that means getting a divorce, so be it. I don't care about anything but our kids right now.

Good, I'm happy to hear that SP. As an adult (39) I will tell you this - in this past year, I really wish that my father had divorced when I was a child. That he would have stood up for his children instead of letting us succumb to all of that over the years. And, this is said without ever having a formal diagnosis as to my mother - just a hunch because of her behaviours, her reactions. None of us will ever been good enough for her. I'm just learning to understand that part of the equation. But I've spent the last 38 years really trying to meet expectations that keep changing on me.

Meeting with a psychologist for my own sake doesn't interest me too much. Even though my life is a daily roller coaster, I am aware of what I am going through. I just deal with it the best I can. I don't think that me seeing a psychologist would resolve anything....it would just give me someone to talk to.

Ok, I can respect that. But, the benefit that I saw was that you'd have someone who could erase some of the scars. Living with a narcissist carries many, many scars. Some that you don't even recognize without the help of a psychologist. That's of course just my opinion. I just think that, if you decide to leave her and raise your children, you'll still need to deal with your emotions, deal with the scars that she's left on you. A psychologist may help you develop a plan on how to ensure that your children aren't scarred by their life experiences. Just a thought, but I appreciate your position on it.

A shoulder to cry on might be good for me, but that isn't my concern right now. I don't want counseling so that I can understand my feelings....I want answers to important questions so that I know what is in the best interest of our children so that I can take the appropriate actions.

A psychologist can be both to you - both a shoulder to lean on, and someone with whom you can decipher how to best approach this very specific situation that you're in. Sometimes, understanding our feeling lights a path that we just didn't consider. And a psychologist can guide you in the best avenue for both you and your children. Don't lose yourself in the equation - those children need you whole. So working on yourself and your feelings is never a loss situation.

 

[sthpawil]

Good morning Jazzey,

Thank you again for your replies - I appreciate the substance.

Yes, I can appreciate that. It took me a long time to appreciate that I needed to do something about it. It's not laziness or anything like that. It's just that, depending on the person, it's easy to fall prey and believe the nastiness. To second guess whether it's about them, or about you, as a person. For many years, I chose to think that it was about me - I really believed that my mother had been dealt a raw deal.

That was especially reassuring for me to hear. I haven't been able to find any information on the internet regarding what is best for our children when it comes to our situation. Everything that I read is about an adult trying to deal with a narcissist.

Basically, it is verbal and emotional abuse and our children and I shouldn't have to live this way. However, as the father, the deck is stacked against me when it comes to custody of our children in the event of a divorce.

I have an appointment with my attorney set up for next week to begin arranging for a divorce. However, before actually getting a divorce, I will seek psychological guidance for our children so that I know what is best for them. I just need to get my ducks in a row because along with our children and personal belongings, I also own my own manufacturing business so there is a lot to deal with.

I need to go for now.....I'll be back later to discuss some behavioral issues with our son that I think are a result of my wife's narcissism.

---------- Post added at 07:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 AM ----------

Hello again Jazzey,

Real quickly....how do I highlight something of yours to quote it so that it sticks out the way that it did when you replied to me?

Thanks!

 

[Jazzey]

Good morning Jazzey

Good morning SP.

Basically, it is verbal and emotional abuse and our children and I shouldn't have to live this way. However, as the father, the deck is stacked against me when it comes to custody of our children in the event of a divorce.

I have an appointment with my attorney set up for next week to begin arranging for a divorce. However, before actually getting a divorce, I will seek psychological guidance for our children so that I know what is best for them.

I'm happy to hear that you've sought legal advice and, that the children will get some support too.

Times have changed a little SP. The focus of the legal system is the 'best interests' of the child. Again, I'm happy you're seeking legal advice.

how do I highlight something of yours to quote it so that it sticks out the way that it did when you replied to me?
Thanks!

There are a couple of ways: I just click on the quote button and then respond to the portions that I want to highlight by typing in [ quote ] (at the beginning of the highlighted text & [ /quote ] at the tail end - here I've added extra spaces so that it doesn't perform the function..

 

[sthpawil]

Good afternoon Jazzey,

I was able to get an appointment with a family counselor on short notice today. I have to admit to you, I did break down and I feel better now.

Originally posted by Jazzey
Sometimes, understanding our feeling lights a path that we just didn't consider. And a psychologist can guide you in the best avenue for both you and your children.

Jazzey - you nailed that on the head.

My parents have been married for 47 years, my paternal grandparents were married for over 50 years before they passed away, and my maternal grandparents were two weeks shy of their 70th anniversary when my grandfather passed away. Of 9 aunts/uncles and all of my first cousins, only one aunt and one cousin have had a divorce. I have a wonderful loving family on both sides and this is hard for me to take. Divorce is definitely something that I never imagined would happen to me.

I just have to make peace with myself that it is the right thing to do.

Next up is my appointment with the divorce attorney at 10:30am Wednesday morning. I am not looking forward to it. Even though a divorce may be in the best interest of our children, it is still difficult for me to think about our kids growing up without both their mom and dad in the same home.


Wow - I just had an "aha" moment. For the past few days, something that I have been thinking about are all of the moments that our children, my wife, and I would miss if we got a divorce. As much as the thought of that hurts, staying married would be even worse for our children. Hmmmm....slowly but surely, I think that I am progressing.

Time to go for today. Take care!

 

[Jazzey]

Sending you nothing but positive vibes. Give us an update after your appointment on Wednesday, if you're up to it?

 

[sthpawil]

The meeting with my divorce attorney went well today - she went over what to expect and how we will coordinate things as we prepare to file an Order of Protection. If I am lucky it will be ready tomorrow 10/15 (ironically it is our 5th anniversary). If so, I will take the children Friday morning and my wife will be served the order of protection on Friday.

Originally posted by Simon:

Apart from hinting at emotional abuse, you haven't really gone in to much detail about how you have come to your classification and diagnosis of your wife.

Hi Simon, I know that I haven't gone into much detail here but I didn't feel the need to go over 5 years worth of abuse here. Those who have truly suffered at the hands of a narcissist have been through all of the same things as I have. Along with emotional abuse, there has been a little physical abuse and lots of verbal/email abuse. She has also destroyed and damaged my personal possessions and she has isolated our children and I from my friends and family.

Unfortunately, the more that I stand up to my wife, the more that she directs the abuse towards our children. She hit our 3.5 year old son in front of me for the first time about a week ago. The verbal/emotional abuse against them has increased greatly over the past few months and I will not allow it any longer.

Even if I am unable to get full custody of our children, at least we will have time to ourselves without her and I can bring my family and friends back into our lives.

This evening I have more hope in my heart than I have had in a long time.

I'll try to keep in touch but I have a lot of things to take care of over the next few days to insure the safety of our children, my parents, my brothers, my extended family, and myself as we deal with this matter.

 

[Jazzey]

I'm so happy it went well. You were in my thoughts today.

Keep that hope alive SP. I'm really so proud for you that you've garnered this strength for your children - good on you, SP. :2thumbs:

You have my admiration. What you've done takes a lot of courage and strength and I'm in awe.

And you're absolutely right - those of us who have lived with a narcissist know the details all too well.

I'm doing my little happy dance for you tonight. And thank you for the update.

In the weeks, months to come - please feel free to lean on all of us here.

 

[sthpawil]

Thank you Jazzey. Even though we don't know one another, I greatly appreciate your kindness. 3 out of the past 4 nights I've had less than 2 hours of sleep as I lie awake with various things running through me head. This is not an easy decision for me to make and your words of support are like a reassuring touch on the shoulder.

 

[Jazzey]

Thank you, SP. I know what you're doing takes a lot of courage. And I'm really touched to see a father place his children above everything else. Having children is a lifetime commitment. And, by your actions right now, you've definitely proven that you've accepted that commitment, with a lot of love for your children.

That touches my heart - so, the thanks belongs to you SP. Take good care of yourself in the process. I know it will be a rough little patch for you in the next few months - but, we're all here whenever you need us.

:flowers:

 

[sthpawil]

Hello Jazzey,

I wanted to give you an update.....

Friday morning I grabbed our kids and got out of the house very early in the morning without my wife waking up. I was scared and nervous but things ended up going smoother than I had thought they would. I only had a day and a half to come up with a plan so I had no idea what would happen.

I was issued an emergency order of protection late in the morning and the divorce papers were filed. She is to have no contact with us at all. We go back to court in 3 weeks.

For the moment, my wife was allowed to remain in our home. I am okay with that because a part of me would not want her in anyone else's home. Our children and I are staying at my parents home. I was allowed to go back to the home for about 1 hour with police to get some clothes, toys, and our dog. It was not fun packing what I could of our lives into our van in an hour.

Friday was a tough day all around. In the past, I could never imagine why someone who had left their abuser would ever go back. However, on Friday night a part of me wanted to put the kids in the van and go back home. No matter what, my wife has been a part of my life and now that part is missing. Then I remembered my wife hitting our son and everything else that we have been through I know that going back is not an option....I have to keep moving forward.

The most surprising thing in all of this so far is that our children haven't asked for their mother at all. That is really helping me keep my sanity right now.....it would break my heart if they started asking for her and I couldn't bring them home. I know that the time will eventually come when they ask for her...I am just glad that I haven't had to deal with it yet.

Getting away from her has been a very freeing experience. A lot of emotions have started coming out.....I think that I've cried more in the past two days than I have in the past 20 years combined. Even with everything that is going on, my brain feels like it is unwinding and it is as if my senses are coming back

It is hard to explain but on Saturday it just seemed as if things were the way that they should always have been all along...our kids getting to spend time with grandpa and grandma. It was something we only got to do on very rare occasions because of my wife's tantrums and the way that she treated our children and I if we visited them even for a second.

Our kids and I picked apples from my parents' apple trees and ate them as we walked around their farm. It was a very peaceful and almost spiritual experience for me...it was cool and it had been raining but then the sun came out and it seemed brighter and warmer than it has in years. The leaves on the trees are changing colors and they looked beautiful. Our kids seemed at peace and it was very good for my heart to see that.

I know that we've got a long road ahead. I am going to continue with counseling for myself and I will begin counseling for our children so that we can all have help dealing with this. I had know idea how many emotions I had been bottled up inside me and I can tell that our children, especially our son, have been affected by my wife's conditional love.

That is all for now....I will keep in touch.

Thank you again for the support....I know that my family and friends are concerned but I also realize that only people who have gone through this can really understand what our children and I are going through.

 

[Jazzey]

Thank you for the update. I'm happy that everything went well, and that you're enjoying time with your parents again. Even happier to hear that you are already seeing the beauty around you. Your post touched me on many levels.

I can imagine that it must have been really difficult to do what you did. And I'm also guessing that the next little while maybe hard too. Don't forget to reach out and get some support for you and your children if you feel that you need it. As for our friends, you'd be amazed at how some of them really do understand. No one likes to talk ill of their family. I reached out to some friends no to long ago only to discover that one of them had been through the same thing with his mother. To protect himself, he was estranged from her for the better part of 10 years. He's finally starting to reconnect with her how, but with strong boundaries in place. I never knew because neither one of us talked about that part of our lives. Probably because we knew that no one would really understand it. Maybe also in part because we were afraid that others would think something bad. I don't know. I just know that since I've started talking about it, I've encountered more people who've shared that life experience.

Take good care and I look forward to hearing more updates from you.

 

[sthpawil]

Hi Jazzey,

You are right, it is amazing how many people go through this without anyone knowing. I just found out yesterday that a good friend of mine has colon cancer. I have known him since kindergarten and I was with him in college when he met his wife. She is one of the nicest people that I know. I told my parents about him having colon cancer last night and later my mother told me that she learned last winter that he was beating her and that his brother beat his girlfriends just like their dad had beat their mom. I didn't know about any of that and I would have never thought that he could be capable of that. They have a young daughter and I am concerned about her too. I am going to find an opportunity where I can talk to her alone as quickly as possible because I know what it feels like when it seems like there is noone to turn to and you just give up.

As for me, yesterday was another eye opening day. It was our childrens first day in daycare (I hate using the word "our" after what I learned yesterday) and it went great. They mentioned to me that our daughter woke up from her nap crying for dadda instead of mama - that was a relief.

I also had another appt with the counselor yesterday. My main concern was finding out how to talk to the kids about what was going on. It really helped me out. The tears keep flowing and I am feeling better every day. I will be bringing our children with me next week.

We were on the way home when a thought popped into my head to run to the store and get a digital recorder. I thought that it would be nice to record how I handled talking to the children so that I could play it back for the counselor and make sure that I did it correctly.

Not only did I get that, but I also have on tape our 3.5 year old son saying how he does not want to go home to see mama because when he or his sister did something wrong (ie, didn't follow her orders or had an oops) she got mad and hit them with the tv remote. When I asked him where, he said on my butt and my back and my head. Then our 2.5 year old daughter pointed to her shin and said that mama hit her on the legs.

As unpleasant as it was to listen to, it was another reassurance that I am doing the right thing. I am so glad that I saw a counselor because the first appointment was the one that gave me the strength to know that it was better for our children to be divorced than it was to remain married.

I've got nine minutes worth of tape that I don't see how any judge in the world would let their mother have custody of them. Our son still hasn't asked for her once and our daughter has now only asked for her twice (the second time being right before the told me about my wife hitting them).

Time for me to go....the kids and I are staying with my parents at least until the next court date in 2.5 weeks and I hear them waking up.

 

[Jazzey]

I'm happy that you feel a little better. And yes, unfortunately, a lot of these things go on behind closed doors...

As for the video recording of your children, please talk to your lawyer about its existence. It's not necessarily something that is admissible as evidence, at least, not in Canada. But, definitely worth mentioning to your lawyer.

 

[sthpawil]

Just an update.

Things are moving slowly at the moment as far as the court proceedings are concerned. I currently have temporary custody of the children and my wife has been granted 2 hours of supervised visitation 4 days per week.

I switched attorneys last week because I was not pleased with some of my original attorney's advice. I told myself that I've only got one shot at getting this right and if things didn't turn out well I would never have forgiven myself for staying with my original attorney. I am much more comfortable with my new attorney's approach to things and now I am at peace with decision, no matter what the outcome is.

We are supposed to go to court Nov 12th but my new attorney has a jury trial that day. She said that she would try to get it extended. If not, she will send someone else from her firm that day.

Our children and I have really changed over the past 3 weeks. Our soon to be 4 year old son no longer wears diapers to bed. The two of them hardly fight at all and, when they do, they are very minor fights compared to how they used to be. They are very happy and outgoing now and they give hugs and kisses like never before.

This past week both of them stopped carrying around their "security" toys. They do still bring them to bed, but that is it. I can't believe that they gave them up after just two weeks.

They still barely mention their mama. Our son does not like going to visit her. The first time that I dropped them off our son was quite distraught. However, thanks to our counselor, I have been able to make them feel more secure about going to the visits. I don't think that they are as scared of her now either because they know where I stand when it come to their mother.

I haven't downgraded her at all...I just told them that I am very mad at her for what she did to them. I also told them that I don't want to take them to visit her but that the judge said that I have to. I don't know if it's funny or sad, but our son wants to have a talk with the judge.

Last week the counselor asked them if there was anything scary at our house and our son's reply was "yes, mama". I don't know how I ever ended up with someone like my soon-to-be-ex. What hurts most is knowing that our children will probably never be able to have a normal loving relationship with their mother. If and when I find someone else, hopefully she will be able to fill the void.

This past Thursday was the kids 6th visit and it was the first time that either of them gave her a hug before they left. My wife was noticeably unhappy and after they hugged her....she waved them away and said "just go". After we left, our son told me that he had told mama what she did to him (hitting and such). That was great news for me because both the visitation supervisor and a social worker were there when it happened. This will help back up all of the witnesses who have heard the same story (me, daycare, DCFS, and the childrens' counselor).

I can tell that our son is confused after every visit. He doesn't understand why his mama doesn't hit him anymore. Hopefully she will never have the opportunity to abuse them physically, emotionally, or verbally ever again.

As for me, I am a completely different person than I was 3 weeks ago. I have gone from being scared of my wife to wanting to be on the offensive. I do need to speak to my counselor about this because I can't let feelings of revenge cause me to make mistakes that could jeopardize my position (it already did once). I know that I still have some things to work out but life is much better now.

I'll update again after the next court date.

 

[Jazzey]

Thank you for the update S. It's so nice to hear that you're all doing well. I'm still sending you positive vibes for the rest of this journey. And please, do keep giving us updates. It makes me smile a lot to hear how well you're all doing.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Yep.... Sounds like you are a healthy enough individual to keep your head and you are also strong enough and to do what was difficult but needed to be done. Some of us with dads who were abused and not so healthy didn't have it in them to take their children to higher ground. It really warms my heart that you and your kids are going to be okay now! :2thumbs:

 

[battleworn]

Hi, excuse me for butting in like this, but from experience -custody battles with a narcissistic parent can be BRUTAL on the children. Get ready for attempted alienation big time. I would recommend reading the book DIVORCE POISON by Richard Warshak, and/or THE UNEXPECTED LEGACY OF DIVORCE (a 25 year study) by J. Wallerstein.

Also, this is from my psychiatrist - - - WE ALL have narcisstic traits, it is just that in some situations this behavior becomes more dominant.

As I go into year 3 of heavy duty counseling and a hostile custody battle, I question if it is MY narcissism that is diagnosing my ex's narcissistic personality disorder and if it is BOTH our narcissism that makes us feel as though each of us know what is best for my son. Meanwhile, my son is confused and in the middle.

I also realize that diagnosing my ex with narcissistic personality disorder (which I SINCERELY believe he suffers from) puts both of us in a box. I always end up aniticipating a narcissistic reaction from him. It makes it very difficult for me to acknowledge that he has some good qualities about him as well.

Nothing is permanent.