More threads by DaniR

DaniR

Member
I am here today to ask for your insights and thoughts about a young man, age 22, who was the long-time boyfriend of my daughter before he abruptly left her several months ago within weeks of their imminent engagement. Whereas she has done quite well (no contact), she is still seeking a better understanding of his erratic behavior during and since the breakup. I have seen many relationships end?friends, family, children, and years ago, my own?and fully know that they can be painful, ugly and awkward. This one is very, very different.

I?ve always suspected that he was emotionally stunted, but based on his recent behavior, he fits classically into the often cited description of a compensatory narcissist. Despite the pain, she and I are both quite concerned about his behavior, even though he seemingly is doing fabulously well. Here are the details:
  • ?Andy? was born in China, moving to U.S. at age 10. Parents, though highly educated, not very assimilated. Very slight and young looking for his age. Mother literally spoon-fed him until his early teens. Ironically, he has been pretty much emotionally neglected since his sister was born around that same time at age 13. The only feedback he has received from them of substance is to excel academically. No support on values, social skills, kindness, etc. None.
  • Andy started dating ?Jenny? off and in high school, resuming their relationship during their sophomore year of college. Totally simpatico on their interests, sense of humor, professional goals, etc, they seldom fight, though his insensitivity and selfishness has created periodic conflicts. Jenny gave a lot more than she received back, even taking two years of Mandarin to be able to better communicate with his parents. The kid was totally into her as casual acquaintances and those close to her saw clearly and without exception. Time passes, they start growing up. Andy and Jessi plan on marriage?he chooses a PhD program within an hour of where we live while Jessi gets accepted into a highly competitive grad program that she decides to pursue remotely to remain closer to him. They begin making their life plans more formal by summer?s end. They even get a rescue puppy a few months ago. Their future looks great.
  • He goes on a two-week-long trip to Alaska with his family. First week, he called four or five times a day, saying how much he missed Jenny and the pup and noting how he couldn?t wait to take Jenny there after they are married. Then?they have a disagreement about his unwillingness to get a part-time job to supplement their future, since she is working two jobs and has agreed to financially carry the load while he finishes his PhD. That was it. He refused to take her calls and only communicated via very cruel text messages. He comes home, drops by our house, and a very robotic, detached, seething with barely contained rage?disconcertingly so, not even petting the dog?says that he wants to ?take a break.? His parents encouraged him, he noted, to ?cool it? as well. All this from a young man who is easily prone to crying. He is overtly disrespectful to me, when in the past he has always been very deferential. Very creepy.
  • The next day, Jenny insists on meeting with him again at the coffee shop they first met. He comes, dog toys in a bag, and tells her he wants out. ? He abandons the pup and drives off. No tears, no emotion?not even shouting and yelling. Nothing. No one saw signs of this coming, not then, not in the months since it all happened. There was nary a crevice in their happiness that anyone saw. That night, Jenny emails him. His response? He wanted out, because, as he put it ?there has never been a spark between us, going way back.? He wants to find a woman who can sexually thrill him and it ain?t Jenny. His ending? ?Yeah, this sucks for you, and I?m selfish, but I?m sure you will be happy again sometime.? No one buys this: Not Jenny, her friends, family, not even the counselor she spoke to post-engagement. This guy was nuts for her.
  • Fast forward: He takes down his Facebook for a month, and becomes a constant user of Twitter, which is strange, since his only followers are celebs and two former classmates. He creates a new FB page and his only friends are those he?s met at his new university. NONE of his former friends?even those of longstanding or not mutual friends of Jenny?s?are a part of his new FB. His photo is one of a smug, arrogant. He?s hardly recognizable. Meanwhile, he is working overtime on his new social life with his new acquaintances. In conclusion, the respectful, overly sentimental young man who never let go of anything before?he kept Facebook friends even when they parted less than amicably has been replaced by this cocky, unkind, sterile jerk.

    My question to all of you?is this typical? What is your perspective and thoughts? Should I intervene on his behalf? (He often came to me for counsel in the past). Frankly, I?m worried about him, and for my daughter?s interest, she would like a better understanding of what in the heck happened.
Thanks so much for your help!!!:eek:
 

DaniR

Member
Thanks for the info, Daniel! I agree entirely with you that many young men are clueless about what they do in regards to relationships. In this situation, however, the response and subsequent behavior of Andy was quite disconcerting--actually disturbing. His nearly catatonic behavior and ability to literally reinvent himself is what concerns me.
 
Could be his mom and dad did something to threaten him or you or Jenny, or threatened him out of the will or something. My mother has done that sort of thing. I suppose you would assume, if he truly loves Jenny, then it would be something his parents said to scare him away from Jenniy.
 

Andy

MVP
Hi DaniR, Without knowing "Andy" or "Jenny" personally I am just going on what you have said of course.

Is it possible that maybe Andy is just trying to find himself? Being that young maybe he decided it wasn't what he wanted (whether his parents convinced him or not) and he is trying to reinvent himself. I know a lot of people who left school and then cut off all ties to their previous family/friends just to expand their horizons and meet new people. It could be his disrespect all of a sudden is his way of pushing you away because he doesn't know how else to go about changing things. Personally I think that if you were close with him in the past then the best thing to do is just ask him straight up what is going on and if he needs any help of any kind. It may very well be that he is just lost and he may come back and he may find what he believes to be missing in his life.

I think the best thing to do is go straight to the source and ask him yourself. Just some quick thoughts on what I read, I think it's great that you are concerned for him and Jenny. :)
 

Daniel E.

daniel@psychlinks.ca
Administrator
In this situation, however, the response and subsequent behavior of Andy was quite disconcerting--actually disturbing. His nearly catatonic behavior and ability to literally reinvent himself is what concerns me.

That isn't a lot of "data" to go on, especially what happens or doesn't happen on Facebook or Twitter. And the ability to reinvent oneself is part of the "American dream."
 
Tis true, STP, he could just be having a really bad case of cold feet. If his parents were so cold to him, maybe he suddenly envisioned himself as a parent and not knowing what to do. Or maybe he's just confused and scared and jumped ship. Has he been actually diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, or perhaps he just has a really bad case of PSTD from being with Narcissistic parents. My mom has NPD, but I think my dad has Borderline Personality Disorder. I was a mess while under the influence of my parents. Maybe they interferred, or maybe this has nothing to do with them.

Good idea, try to figure out from him what's actually going on. But it might just be that he needs some time to himself to figure things out. I had a fiance who dumped me twice. I didn't let him dump me a third time. I just said forget it when he came back to me the 2nd time. Same deal, he left me with little or no explanation other than his sister talked to him. So I figured if he was going to listen to his sister instead of me, he could marry her instead... lol But I didn't marry just because I was engaged... That happened much later and I am actually glad I met my husband...
 

Daniel E.

daniel@psychlinks.ca
Administrator
perhaps he just has a really bad case of PSTD from being with Narcissistic parents

Unlikely. That would require both a life-threatening situation as well as a genetic vulnerability to PTSD.
 
Yeah, I just meant he's probably got some issues, not necessarily PTSD (sorry if that was a bad example)... But some NPD parents beat the hell out of their kids, sexually assault or molest them, or lock them in closets, or starve them, so I don't know how much trauma he's had with them. I'm just sayin...

Who knows?
 

Daniel E.

daniel@psychlinks.ca
Administrator
Of course, the notions we North Americans have of romantic love are largely Western ideals (from Europe in the Middle Ages) which can prove just as problematic as other value systems, e.g.

The lover believes that "true love" lasts forever and only permits himself to become passionately endeared to a person who has the same romantic illusions and who swears undying devotion.

The Albert Ellis reader: a guide to ... - Google Books

So what can seem like narcissistic behavior may just reflect a different value system.

based on his recent behavior, he fits classically into the often cited description of a compensatory narcissist.
You are not exactly in an objective position, of course, since your daughter is involved. In any case, to jump from selfishness (as a behavior) to narcissism (as a personality disorder) is quite a leap.

Also:

There is a fundamental developmental shift in both the amounts of narcissism that people have and also in the meaning of it as people age," Roberts said. An exaggerated belief in one's own capabilities and prospects may help young people "navigate adolescence and the turmoil involved in trying to find a sense of identity," he said. Later in life, however, those same traits "appear to be related to less life satisfaction and a poorer reputation."

Narcissism may benefit the young, researchers report; but older adults? Not so much
 

DaniR

Member
Great replies, all! I don't believe there has been any sexual and/or physical abuse, though emotional neglect is quite apparent. As I said in my original post, this is a young man whose mother still cut his hair until last year and fed him with a spoon until he was a teenager. He has zero confidence most of the time until he skyrockets into pomposity. I have seen young men get cold feet, but his reaction was striking. Still wondering if at some point I should try contacting him? My daughter has no interest at this juncture of getting back with him, so I certainly don't want to give the wrong impression.
 

Andy

MVP
Still wondering if at some point I should try contacting him? My daughter has no interest at this juncture of getting back with him, so I certainly don't want to give the wrong impression.

Maybe if your daughter is finished with him it would be better to just let him be. If they decide to work it out in the future then maybe you could find out what was going on but if your daughter has washed her hands of him then maybe it's best that you let things be. Personally when my mother tried to stay in touch with an ex of mine it just made me resent her because I didn't want him around anymore and it was like she was bringing him back into my life when I was trying to get over him and move on. ;)
 

DaniR

Member
Also, my definition came from the psychotherapists in my office (I am the communications director for a large human service nonprofit as well as my daughter's counselor. Of course, it is only an educated hypothesis, since neither has spoken with Andy directly.
 

Daniel E.

daniel@psychlinks.ca
Administrator
He has zero confidence most of the time until he skyrockets into pomposity.

BTW, in the Japanese culture:

While Japanese have “low self-esteem”, they do not feel badly about themselves and may even feel good about themselves. This makes them eminently “normal” human beings. They may of course feel good about themselves for very different reasons than Americans feel good about themselves.

The Paradox of Japanese Self-Esteem :acrobat:
The Japanese students described their self-esteem as situation-sensitive to a greater degree than did the Americans students.

Situation-Sensitivity and Self-Esteem in Japan and America :acrobat:

However, in China, there is less evidence of this phenomenon, even though it is also a collectivist culture:

The concept of self-esteem was originally conceived in Western culture. It is possible that self-esteem has different meanings and serves different functions in Chinese culture. Because Chinese Americans are influenced by both cultural traditions, the meanings and functions of self-esteem for Chinese Americans may be both similar to and different from those of self-esteem in monoculture Chinese and American groups.

Cultural Predictors of Self-Esteem: A Study of Chinese American Female and Male Young Adults :acrobat:

In any case, the fact that one is functioning as a PhD student is a good sign of something.

 
though his insensitivity and selfishness has created periodic conflicts.
they have a disagreement about his unwillingness to get a part-time job to supplement their future, since she is working two jobs and has agreed to financially carry the load while he finishes his PhD. That was it. He refused to take her calls and only communicated via very cruel text messages

Maybe he actually did her a favour... maybe he figured out that he had taken all he was going to get from your daughter and your family... maybe the whole relationship was ONE sided to begin with. (even while appearing that it was a normal relationship).
Lots of maybe's regarding what could have been going on or even what is going on with this young man.
I do not think worrying or thinking on what was\is the case here is going to do anyone any good.


Still wondering if at some point I should try contacting him? My daughter has no interest at this juncture of getting back with him, so I certainly don't want to give the wrong impression.
Similar to STP...
but if your daughter has washed her hands of him then maybe it's best that you let things be
.
I agree that leaving well enough alone and not making any contact with this young man is the best course of action. let him go.


:)
 

DaniR

Member
Maybe he actually did her a favour... maybe he figured out that he had taken all he was going to get from your daughter and your family... maybe the whole relationship was ONE sided to begin with. (even while appearing that it was a normal relationship).
Lots of maybe's regarding what could have been going on or even what is going on with this young man.
I do not think worrying or thinking on what was\is the case here is going to do anyone any good.



Similar to STP....
I agree that leaving well enough alone and not making any contact with this young man is the best course of action. let him go.


:)

Advice taken! Of course, I'd never initiate contact without my daughter's knowledge and approval, but you all give excellent insight into the problem. Just curious to know if any of you have dealt with this type of individual previously. If so, do they ever feel regret/empathy for their actions? It drives me nuts to think that someone isn't held accountable for their actions.

---------- Post added at 07:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 AM ----------

Hi DaniR, Without knowing "Andy" or "Jenny" personally I am just going on what you have said of course.

Is it possible that maybe Andy is just trying to find himself? Being that young maybe he decided it wasn't what he wanted (whether his parents convinced him or not) and he is trying to reinvent himself. I know a lot of people who left school and then cut off all ties to their previous family/friends just to expand their horizons and meet new people. It could be his disrespect all of a sudden is his way of pushing you away because he doesn't know how else to go about changing things. Personally I think that if you were close with him in the past then the best thing to do is just ask him straight up what is going on and if he needs any help of any kind. It may very well be that he is just lost and he may come back and he may find what he believes to be missing in his life.

I think the best thing to do is go straight to the source and ask him yourself. Just some quick thoughts on what I read, I think it's great that you are concerned for him and Jenny. :)

Thanks so much for your thoughts, STP! :eek: He's definitely a troubled young man, and though I am indeed tempted to ask him outright, I am going to sit on the sidelines and let him stew in his own juices for now. I just wish he would own up and be accountable.
 
I just wish he would own up and be accountable.
If indeed this behaviour is because of Narcissism.. I would hazzard a guess that he does not see anything wrong with what he has done. From that point of view. (narcissism) . He was being accountable.. to HIMSELF!. it was never about two people, it was only about him. More than likely he does not and never will see anything wrong with his behaviour.
have you read this thread?
http://forum.psychlinks.ca/narcissi...7487-do-narcissists-know-theyre-annoying.html
But her hunch is these self-absorbed individuals view their narcissism as a character strength that brings them personal gain and helps them get ahead.

Another thought maybe totally off the wall... that total personality change as described, might\maybe\possibly be attributed to D.I.D. who knows!.

I like your idea of sitting on the sidelines.. a lot of people who display these traits.. if one watches long enough.. come to be people with little or no friends or no real close relationships. Imho anyway.

I like to believe that somehow.. what goes around comes around, At least I am trying to hang onto that belief. :)
 

DaniR

Member
AMEN, Always Changing! I am an impatient person, sorry to say, and I'd like to see Karma kick in sooner rather than later. ;)
 

Daniel E.

daniel@psychlinks.ca
Administrator
It just seems very convenient to assume a personality disorder when someone behaves in a way one does not like, even habitually.

might\maybe\possibly be attributed to D.I.D. who knows!.

Of course, that is a relatively uncommon, overdiagnosed disorder, and mood disorders are far more common.

 

MMM

Member
It seems that the young man in question has a problem which,in my opinion,is best left to a counsellor,rather than the mother of the young lady.In a way,I see the whole "drama" as a warning to the girl and her mother.I wish the young lady all the very best for the future.She can continue to research the behaviour,but I really don't think it of much use to meet with him again.:rolleyes:
 
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