- Thread starter bigben70
- Start date
Daniel:
Thanks for the informative link - it's a good reminder of how there is a natural low after a high. Reminds me of the Latin proverb, “Omne animal post coitum triste.” which translates: All animals are sad after sex.
For me, these days, I can't really tell WHAT is going on. There is so much going on in my life right now and I am on more meds than ever. (Mood stabilizer, Anti-D, Blood pressure med, and Gapapentin for anxiety plus Ativan as needed). On the trip, I took approx 3mg of Ativan in 0.5 or 1.0mg does per day. Not really that much and within normal dosing range. But Friday upon my return I made a point NOT to medicate. Saturday I started feeling queezy - Sunday was worse and Monday I was quite ill. I had cold sweats where my head and hair was soaked with sweat. I had low heat tolerance, and after mowing the grass (45 mins in 26 degree sun) I had to hide in an air conditioned room. My face was red hot and my arms felt hot as well - I put a compress on my head and sat in the dark A/C'd room. After a couple hours I felt better. Last night it was "the night before work again" and again I could not sleep. I took 1/2 of a "Nytol" (diphenhydramine hydrochloride) and it worked since I have abstained from using it for a couple of weeks now. But I don't want to use it regularly again, that's for sure.
I have a therapy appointment here in an hour where we are supposed to start EMDR. Today, I feel more like using that hour for a NAP! I came back to "fires here at work" which have only grown larger since I left. I told my wife this short sabbatical was ill timed but she said that if I waited for a "break in the action" I'd never get a break at all. She's right - most jobs in my line of work (and probably most others) will eat you alive if you don't set firm boundaries with your employer.
For me, at this point, I actually feel tired of my usual self-analysis and internet research (which surprises me). I think my need for so much online data is a symptom of something else: hypochondria. I fear heart attacks and cancer. I fell that I can't expect to live a long and healthy life because of the stress I experience. Between wife, kids and work it feels like I am being torn in three directions. Work / life balance boils down to who is screaming at me loudest at any given moment. ME! no ME! no ME ME ME! They all cry. They seem like infants, or little squeeking chicks in a nest who are never full, never happy and never content. I feel like I just want to tell them all to shut up. But I need my job, and I need my wife to help me with my kids. They're all tightly interdependent and they all pull on me at once. Had I known how difficult parenting was going to be.... oh that thought never ends up in a happy place...
I'm sort of numb today - sort of floating. I am a bit hungover from the Nytol (1/2 pill hangover is manageable).My forehead is warm for a change and not clammy - my hands are cold though. Heart rate is nice and low. I guess after that stressful "vacation" (3 days of travel and 3 days of withdrawal) I am doing quite good.
Compared to my vacation, being back at work is actually quite a relief! Sad, but true...
Sorry if I sound defeated and whiney. It's just that I would have much rather rested for six days - but my wife deserved that break very badly. She said it was better than our 2004 trip but she fears that I would "make her pay for it later". I think I don't intentionally "make her pay", but I get quite stressed when I get back especially when the bills from the trip start coming in. I need to really not comment on the money spent on the trip or she'll get set off like a firework on the 4th of July.
I sometimes think if I were her I would not want to be married to me. I can sympathize with her how hard it must be to live with me. I appreciate her, but I think I keep her at arms length because all of my other relaitonships failed due to my mental health issues. I fear she too will have her breaking point and go. We can't afford marrriage counselling right now and that's not a good thing.
Cheers,
-Big Ben
Thanks for the informative link - it's a good reminder of how there is a natural low after a high. Reminds me of the Latin proverb, “Omne animal post coitum triste.” which translates: All animals are sad after sex.
For me, these days, I can't really tell WHAT is going on. There is so much going on in my life right now and I am on more meds than ever. (Mood stabilizer, Anti-D, Blood pressure med, and Gapapentin for anxiety plus Ativan as needed). On the trip, I took approx 3mg of Ativan in 0.5 or 1.0mg does per day. Not really that much and within normal dosing range. But Friday upon my return I made a point NOT to medicate. Saturday I started feeling queezy - Sunday was worse and Monday I was quite ill. I had cold sweats where my head and hair was soaked with sweat. I had low heat tolerance, and after mowing the grass (45 mins in 26 degree sun) I had to hide in an air conditioned room. My face was red hot and my arms felt hot as well - I put a compress on my head and sat in the dark A/C'd room. After a couple hours I felt better. Last night it was "the night before work again" and again I could not sleep. I took 1/2 of a "Nytol" (diphenhydramine hydrochloride) and it worked since I have abstained from using it for a couple of weeks now. But I don't want to use it regularly again, that's for sure.
I have a therapy appointment here in an hour where we are supposed to start EMDR. Today, I feel more like using that hour for a NAP! I came back to "fires here at work" which have only grown larger since I left. I told my wife this short sabbatical was ill timed but she said that if I waited for a "break in the action" I'd never get a break at all. She's right - most jobs in my line of work (and probably most others) will eat you alive if you don't set firm boundaries with your employer.
For me, at this point, I actually feel tired of my usual self-analysis and internet research (which surprises me). I think my need for so much online data is a symptom of something else: hypochondria. I fear heart attacks and cancer. I fell that I can't expect to live a long and healthy life because of the stress I experience. Between wife, kids and work it feels like I am being torn in three directions. Work / life balance boils down to who is screaming at me loudest at any given moment. ME! no ME! no ME ME ME! They all cry. They seem like infants, or little squeeking chicks in a nest who are never full, never happy and never content. I feel like I just want to tell them all to shut up. But I need my job, and I need my wife to help me with my kids. They're all tightly interdependent and they all pull on me at once. Had I known how difficult parenting was going to be.... oh that thought never ends up in a happy place...
I'm sort of numb today - sort of floating. I am a bit hungover from the Nytol (1/2 pill hangover is manageable).My forehead is warm for a change and not clammy - my hands are cold though. Heart rate is nice and low. I guess after that stressful "vacation" (3 days of travel and 3 days of withdrawal) I am doing quite good.
Compared to my vacation, being back at work is actually quite a relief! Sad, but true...
Sorry if I sound defeated and whiney. It's just that I would have much rather rested for six days - but my wife deserved that break very badly. She said it was better than our 2004 trip but she fears that I would "make her pay for it later". I think I don't intentionally "make her pay", but I get quite stressed when I get back especially when the bills from the trip start coming in. I need to really not comment on the money spent on the trip or she'll get set off like a firework on the 4th of July.
I sometimes think if I were her I would not want to be married to me. I can sympathize with her how hard it must be to live with me. I appreciate her, but I think I keep her at arms length because all of my other relaitonships failed due to my mental health issues. I fear she too will have her breaking point and go. We can't afford marrriage counselling right now and that's not a good thing.
Cheers,
-Big Ben
Any reason your why your wife can't keep track of the billing for you so you can keep your mind off things? She can warn you if you guys are getting low in the funds. Let go of that stress/control. One less thing for you to worry about/be responsible for/control. If she doesn't know how, maybe show her how, or have her take a class...
Maybe it would help her understand where your stress is coming from as well. Because maybe she doesn't know that x amount spent will cause y to have to be delayed.
Anyway, glad to hear you are seeing someone to talk about your progress and your questions...
Maybe it would help her understand where your stress is coming from as well. Because maybe she doesn't know that x amount spent will cause y to have to be delayed.
Anyway, glad to hear you are seeing someone to talk about your progress and your questions...
Why aren't you using your prescribed Ativan as a sleep aid instead of Nytol? In fact if you have difficulty with sleep, your doctor can prescribe much better sleep medications that ensure good quality sleep without the disruptive effects of antihistamines.
BTW in response to the topic of your post, I enjoy travel and therefore travel is an integral part of our current lifestyle. There are strategies necessary to alleviate some common stressors associated with individual forms of travel, but when planned correctly, travel can be relaxing, exciting, educational, enjoyable, challenging and plenty of fun.
@JollyGreen:
Actually, it's funny you should mention it. Wife wants me to take over family bills and finances because she is more swamped than I am with family business and the bookwork for the biz. But yeah, I need to let go since I resolved to spend the money and definately don't want to spoil any memories by whining about the money part.
@Steve:
I am very very reluctant to use ativan on a regular basis due it's highly addictive properties. Ativan is known to have both a chemical and psychological dependency component. That said, ANYTHING that helps one sleep is habit forming - aka, chemically addicting or not, your body becomes reliant on the med for sleep. If tolerance is evident, more and more will be needed for sleep as well. If tolerance builds with Ativan, this is dangerous. I use Ativan only for periods when anxiety is more than I can manange. I think this is why it's delicate balance for me - use or not to use. My pysch. gave me Gabapentin and Imipramine for general anxiety which seems to work. Truth be told, I think I have terrible sleep hygene. I get to work too late, stay too late, and somehow expect to wind down too quickly. I think it was Daniel who suggested to simply leave work early, and that going to bed earlier would follow - rather than trying to get up earlier. It's a bit of a paradigm shift about sleep. I think I'll give that a try - but I'll ask my psych about using Ativan for sleep anyways and see what her opinion is about it. She seems very... tight fisted with the Ativan and will not use it (for example) for chronic or general anxiety. She believes it's primary use is for when anxiety shoots up to unmanageable levels, or for subduing a panic attack. Anyways, my goal is to try and get to sleep (like I normally do) med free.
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to write!
Cheers,
-Big Ben
Actually, it's funny you should mention it. Wife wants me to take over family bills and finances because she is more swamped than I am with family business and the bookwork for the biz. But yeah, I need to let go since I resolved to spend the money and definately don't want to spoil any memories by whining about the money part.
@Steve:
I am very very reluctant to use ativan on a regular basis due it's highly addictive properties. Ativan is known to have both a chemical and psychological dependency component. That said, ANYTHING that helps one sleep is habit forming - aka, chemically addicting or not, your body becomes reliant on the med for sleep. If tolerance is evident, more and more will be needed for sleep as well. If tolerance builds with Ativan, this is dangerous. I use Ativan only for periods when anxiety is more than I can manange. I think this is why it's delicate balance for me - use or not to use. My pysch. gave me Gabapentin and Imipramine for general anxiety which seems to work. Truth be told, I think I have terrible sleep hygene. I get to work too late, stay too late, and somehow expect to wind down too quickly. I think it was Daniel who suggested to simply leave work early, and that going to bed earlier would follow - rather than trying to get up earlier. It's a bit of a paradigm shift about sleep. I think I'll give that a try - but I'll ask my psych about using Ativan for sleep anyways and see what her opinion is about it. She seems very... tight fisted with the Ativan and will not use it (for example) for chronic or general anxiety. She believes it's primary use is for when anxiety shoots up to unmanageable levels, or for subduing a panic attack. Anyways, my goal is to try and get to sleep (like I normally do) med free.
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to write!
Cheers,
-Big Ben
There are other drugs that can help with both anxiety and insomnia, like a low dose of Seroquel. Even some antidepressants like Remeron can be sedating.
Ben,
I agree the topic of using benzodiazepines is controversial in many circles, and even seems to be the bad drug du jour among some physicians.
I don't believe there is evidence to support chemcal addiction potential with Ativan, however there are reports of psychological habituation.
I don't believe the literature supports that hypothesis either particularly with the more recent specific medications developed and indicated for helpng to sleep, when used as directed. Probably truer with older narcotic type meds used for sleep, no longer used for that purpose.
As you correctly allude to, however, lifestyle changes may often be required to complement treatment with hypnotic medications.
We have to be careful not to allow the hyperbole and self serving rhetoric on the internet to distort the reality of how many of these medications can help, when used correctly, under the care of a physican.
My understanding from the literature and from the clinical experience of psychiatrists with whom I discussed the subject in connection with my work, the older, longer acting benzodiazepines with complex metabolic pathways (diazepam, chlordiazapoxide) were more likely to result in habituation because of the way their metabolites tend to remain in the bloodstream for days after the medication had been taken.
Additionally when these medications were first introduced in the late sixties, they were the first breakthrough in minor tranquilizers after years of only narcotic drugs being the only available option. The use of the early benzodiazepines was so widespread, in such huge numbers that any problems or idiosyncrasies were exaggerated by virtue of the numbers of people using these drugs. To this day, the reputation of this class of medications is still burdened by the problems of those early years.
Concerns about habituation are real and are usually associated with extended duration of use, unusually high dosages and when used in individuals with a predisposition to dependency behaviours.
Your concerns about tolerance are well taken, and I believe evidence shows that tolerance is also influenced by duration of use and/or excessive dosage.
As I understand it, your doctor has recommended you use Ativan at a relatively low dosage of 1 mg as needed, and the way this particular benzodiazepine is metabolized, it is pretty well out of the system in about 8 hours, with no lingering metabolites to interfere with subsequent doses. Furthermore this medication is considered a clean metabolizer, so there is virtually no risk of interaction with other medications.
However, for people with chronic difficulty to fall asleep and or to stay asleep, there are newer, non benzodiazepine "hypnotics" (sleep medications) that produce normal, good quality sleep with virtually no hangover effects or daytime drowsiness.
You are prudent to be concerned, and your decisions should be made after consulting with your doctors, but I would caution about reaching conclusions about medications based on innuendo and hysterical self serving internet rhetoric that serves only to undermine the benefits many of these medication can deliver by improving the quality of life of millions of people, when used judiciously and according to their prescribing directions.
I agree the topic of using benzodiazepines is controversial in many circles, and even seems to be the bad drug du jour among some physicians.
I don't believe there is evidence to support chemcal addiction potential with Ativan, however there are reports of psychological habituation.
I don't believe the literature supports that hypothesis either particularly with the more recent specific medications developed and indicated for helpng to sleep, when used as directed. Probably truer with older narcotic type meds used for sleep, no longer used for that purpose.
As you correctly allude to, however, lifestyle changes may often be required to complement treatment with hypnotic medications.
We have to be careful not to allow the hyperbole and self serving rhetoric on the internet to distort the reality of how many of these medications can help, when used correctly, under the care of a physican.
My understanding from the literature and from the clinical experience of psychiatrists with whom I discussed the subject in connection with my work, the older, longer acting benzodiazepines with complex metabolic pathways (diazepam, chlordiazapoxide) were more likely to result in habituation because of the way their metabolites tend to remain in the bloodstream for days after the medication had been taken.
Additionally when these medications were first introduced in the late sixties, they were the first breakthrough in minor tranquilizers after years of only narcotic drugs being the only available option. The use of the early benzodiazepines was so widespread, in such huge numbers that any problems or idiosyncrasies were exaggerated by virtue of the numbers of people using these drugs. To this day, the reputation of this class of medications is still burdened by the problems of those early years.
Concerns about habituation are real and are usually associated with extended duration of use, unusually high dosages and when used in individuals with a predisposition to dependency behaviours.
Your concerns about tolerance are well taken, and I believe evidence shows that tolerance is also influenced by duration of use and/or excessive dosage.
As I understand it, your doctor has recommended you use Ativan at a relatively low dosage of 1 mg as needed, and the way this particular benzodiazepine is metabolized, it is pretty well out of the system in about 8 hours, with no lingering metabolites to interfere with subsequent doses. Furthermore this medication is considered a clean metabolizer, so there is virtually no risk of interaction with other medications.
However, for people with chronic difficulty to fall asleep and or to stay asleep, there are newer, non benzodiazepine "hypnotics" (sleep medications) that produce normal, good quality sleep with virtually no hangover effects or daytime drowsiness.
You are prudent to be concerned, and your decisions should be made after consulting with your doctors, but I would caution about reaching conclusions about medications based on innuendo and hysterical self serving internet rhetoric that serves only to undermine the benefits many of these medication can deliver by improving the quality of life of millions of people, when used judiciously and according to their prescribing directions.
suewatters1
Member
I take the generic version of Ativan to sleep. I usually take 2x1 mg of Ativan. Sometimes I take 1mg only of Ativan and 50 mg or 100 mg of Trazadone. Trazadone alone doesn't help me because 50 mg is not enough and 100 mg gives me nightmares. I was given Serequel a few years back by another DR I don't see anymore and on 5 mg I woke up stoned.
Sue
Sue
Thanks Steve!
The reason I cite that Ativan having a chemical dependence factor is due to a more commonly accepted phenomenon of "benzodiazpine discontinuation syndrome" - aka withdrawal. I have experienced this myself - anxiety, cold sweats, upset stomach... this to me screams physical (chemical) dependency. This is different from the "I miss the effect" psychological dependency.
As for becoming reliant on sleep aids, it's been my personal experienced that anything that I become accustomed to for falling asleep that is "removed" can increase my difficulty in falling asleep. Example: a person who needs a fan or some white noise or music to sleep will suddenly lie sleepless in a dead-quiet hotel room. So, in that light, it's very possible that a person can become psychologically dependent on a sleep aid (for example) to get to sleep. I.e., when they STOP taking it, it may result in insomnia. I'm no expert here, but the body seems to like to hang on to things that help it get to sleep!!
I am glad to hear they have alternative medicines to benzo's for anxiety and sleep. I quit drinking some 15 years ago and really don't want another addiction! That said, I've used Ativan and other benzo's for almost 20 years now without addiction, so I guess that says something about either how addictive they are or how I've used them.
"Furthermore this medication is considered a clean metabolizer, so there is virtually no risk of interaction with other medications."
Interaction as far as chemical interaction, perhaps, but according to my drug interaction checks it can cause additive CNS suppressive effects with a myriad of different drugs from anti-depressants to sleep aids and especially some anti-psychotics and atypical atypical antipsychotics. In general, the doc and the pharmacist should be consulted - and people should always learn the effects for them specifically before driving or operating dangerous machinery (or even watching kids - in case they become so sleepy they might nod off when caring for young kids, for example.)
Yes, I know I make everything with meds seem so complex. I think I do this because I am hypervigilant about side effects - anything unfamiliar makes me panic right away. So I always like to know side effects and interactions real well. I once was getting anxiety attacks, extreme dry mouth, and strangely high frequency of urination. At the ER they looked at my chart and said "anxiety. Go home". But anxiety in the 20 years I've had it has never caused total mouth and throat dryness (dry to touch tongue) and frequent urination. My doc changed me to a different blood pressure med and whamo - no more trips to ER and no more dry mouth episodes. Bad postural hypotension and/or vasovegal syncope (dizziness on standing) was also eliminated - which also would cause me to panic.
Do I sound like a doctor when I write? Trust me - I'm just a hypochondriac with an internet connection. Fear of health problems is something I am currently working on. Hoarding data on meds and psych problems is part of my problem. As you have seen, I can be prone to hanging on to outdated or incorrect information.
I think I need to become a layperson again and focus my energies on how to be a better less-stressed dad rather than an "computer chair physician". Like the "internet doctors" they laugh about on the TV series "House".
Yeah, that's me!
Thanks again for the great discussion.
Cheers,
-Big Ben
The reason I cite that Ativan having a chemical dependence factor is due to a more commonly accepted phenomenon of "benzodiazpine discontinuation syndrome" - aka withdrawal. I have experienced this myself - anxiety, cold sweats, upset stomach... this to me screams physical (chemical) dependency. This is different from the "I miss the effect" psychological dependency.
As for becoming reliant on sleep aids, it's been my personal experienced that anything that I become accustomed to for falling asleep that is "removed" can increase my difficulty in falling asleep. Example: a person who needs a fan or some white noise or music to sleep will suddenly lie sleepless in a dead-quiet hotel room. So, in that light, it's very possible that a person can become psychologically dependent on a sleep aid (for example) to get to sleep. I.e., when they STOP taking it, it may result in insomnia. I'm no expert here, but the body seems to like to hang on to things that help it get to sleep!!
I am glad to hear they have alternative medicines to benzo's for anxiety and sleep. I quit drinking some 15 years ago and really don't want another addiction! That said, I've used Ativan and other benzo's for almost 20 years now without addiction, so I guess that says something about either how addictive they are or how I've used them.
"Furthermore this medication is considered a clean metabolizer, so there is virtually no risk of interaction with other medications."
Interaction as far as chemical interaction, perhaps, but according to my drug interaction checks it can cause additive CNS suppressive effects with a myriad of different drugs from anti-depressants to sleep aids and especially some anti-psychotics and atypical atypical antipsychotics. In general, the doc and the pharmacist should be consulted - and people should always learn the effects for them specifically before driving or operating dangerous machinery (or even watching kids - in case they become so sleepy they might nod off when caring for young kids, for example.)
Yes, I know I make everything with meds seem so complex. I think I do this because I am hypervigilant about side effects - anything unfamiliar makes me panic right away. So I always like to know side effects and interactions real well. I once was getting anxiety attacks, extreme dry mouth, and strangely high frequency of urination. At the ER they looked at my chart and said "anxiety. Go home". But anxiety in the 20 years I've had it has never caused total mouth and throat dryness (dry to touch tongue) and frequent urination. My doc changed me to a different blood pressure med and whamo - no more trips to ER and no more dry mouth episodes. Bad postural hypotension and/or vasovegal syncope (dizziness on standing) was also eliminated - which also would cause me to panic.
Do I sound like a doctor when I write? Trust me - I'm just a hypochondriac with an internet connection. Fear of health problems is something I am currently working on. Hoarding data on meds and psych problems is part of my problem. As you have seen, I can be prone to hanging on to outdated or incorrect information.
I think I need to become a layperson again and focus my energies on how to be a better less-stressed dad rather than an "computer chair physician". Like the "internet doctors" they laugh about on the TV series "House".
Yeah, that's me!
Thanks again for the great discussion.
Cheers,
-Big Ben
I know someone who takes Trazadone/Trazorel, which is not addicting and is sometimes used with other antidepressants or anti-anxiety medication. He's taken it for a few years to help him sleep. He has kept it at the same level/dosage for the same amount of time, hasn't tried to take more than prescribed. Maybe you could check with the doctor about that...
@ Sue:
Thanks for chiming in Sue!
Yeah, I took Seroquel for a while too. 1/2 of a 25mg tab would knock me cold - but not before it gave me a pounding heart. I am VERY sensitive to this drug! My doc (not psych) at the time liked to dabble in atypical anti-psychotics and off-label uses for regular anti-psychotics. He wanted me on 75mg daily Seroquel in the morning. At 25mg I was stoned by the time I got to work and at 50mg I was sleeping in my desk chair (literally) so I immediately got a 2nd opinion!! I had a refill of 3 x 30 days = 90 tablets of seroquel filled that I used for sleep from time to time (Bad Big Ben, Bad! I know!) but I tossed them when I did my "pharmaceutical kid proofing project" years back - we got rid of old scripts and drugs we were keeping around.
Seroquel works wonders for manic people and for people who are actually psychotic but I've heard similar reports from people who were prescribed it "off label" for anxiety or sleep. The sleep people didn't complain as much as the anxiety people. Anxiety people often say they got too stoned - and could not drive or work or function at all.
Seroquel knocks you out for sleep - but you wake up hungover and if you take it for anxiety during the day, it gets rid of the anxiety. Trouble is, it gets rid of most of your conscious thought too!! ha ha.
Sort of like cutting off ones head to stop a headache in a way...
Thanks Sue.
Cheers,
-Big Ben
---------- Post added at 05:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------
@ Jolly:
I will ask my psych at next appointment about Trazadone. I used to get Zopiclone for sleep, but it tended to interact with my blood pressure med at the time. The result was that it increased the dieuretic effect of the BP med substantially and gave me all kinds of whacky symptoms. I was drinking water until my stomach could hold no more and still I could not quench my thirst. And of course, drinking that much water, I was urinating like.... crazy! Human fire truck ha ha ha.
Yeah, trazadone maybe. Zopiclone - it works but reacts with my other meds.
I'd try whiskey but side effects include anti-social behaviour, loss of fine motor skills, reduced alertness, dizzyness, dehydration, job loss, imprisonment, and loss of significant other and access to children.
That drug is, thankfully, no longer an option!
Cheers,
-Big Ben
Thanks for chiming in Sue!
Yeah, I took Seroquel for a while too. 1/2 of a 25mg tab would knock me cold - but not before it gave me a pounding heart. I am VERY sensitive to this drug! My doc (not psych) at the time liked to dabble in atypical anti-psychotics and off-label uses for regular anti-psychotics. He wanted me on 75mg daily Seroquel in the morning. At 25mg I was stoned by the time I got to work and at 50mg I was sleeping in my desk chair (literally) so I immediately got a 2nd opinion!! I had a refill of 3 x 30 days = 90 tablets of seroquel filled that I used for sleep from time to time (Bad Big Ben, Bad! I know!) but I tossed them when I did my "pharmaceutical kid proofing project" years back - we got rid of old scripts and drugs we were keeping around.
Seroquel works wonders for manic people and for people who are actually psychotic but I've heard similar reports from people who were prescribed it "off label" for anxiety or sleep. The sleep people didn't complain as much as the anxiety people. Anxiety people often say they got too stoned - and could not drive or work or function at all.
Seroquel knocks you out for sleep - but you wake up hungover and if you take it for anxiety during the day, it gets rid of the anxiety. Trouble is, it gets rid of most of your conscious thought too!! ha ha.
Sort of like cutting off ones head to stop a headache in a way...
Thanks Sue.
Cheers,
-Big Ben
---------- Post added at 05:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------
@ Jolly:
I will ask my psych at next appointment about Trazadone. I used to get Zopiclone for sleep, but it tended to interact with my blood pressure med at the time. The result was that it increased the dieuretic effect of the BP med substantially and gave me all kinds of whacky symptoms. I was drinking water until my stomach could hold no more and still I could not quench my thirst. And of course, drinking that much water, I was urinating like.... crazy! Human fire truck ha ha ha.
Yeah, trazadone maybe. Zopiclone - it works but reacts with my other meds.
I'd try whiskey but side effects include anti-social behaviour, loss of fine motor skills, reduced alertness, dizzyness, dehydration, job loss, imprisonment, and loss of significant other and access to children.
That drug is, thankfully, no longer an option!
Cheers,
-Big Ben
So the American version, Lunesta (eszopiclone), is probably out of the question. One perspective: "I'm switching doctors if this guy won't give me Ambien back because the metallic taste in my mouth from one night of Lunesta is so severe."
I do think that with insomnia waking up at the same time each day is more helpful than trying too hard to go to sleep. (Anything is better than trying to go to sleep.) So trying to wake up earlier may be more helpful than trying to go to sleep earlier.
In other words, people with insomnia tend to be too worried/concerned about getting enough sleep. That's one reason CBT approaches can help with insomnia: http://forum.psychlinks.ca/sleep-dreams-insomnia/4498-cbt-works-better-than-sleeping-pills.html
And, of course, exercising more, such as in the morning, can also help with insomnia, anxiety, and high blood pressure.
---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------
Incidentally, your blood pressure may be lower than you think:
I started checking my blood pressure at home years ago since it's always higher at the doctor's office due to anxiety.
Good question, Ben and the answer is that the withdrawl symptoms with this particular medication is not due to a chemical dependency in the way that narcotics modify the need for certain biochemistry for the substance, but rather due to its biologic half life.
Ativan is a short acting benzodiazepine with a half life of about 8 to 12 hours, with no active metabolites; therefore the therapeutic avantage is that steady state is achieved after about three days, when the amount of medication being eliminated equals the amount being ingested. For the physician the clinical importance is the effect of the medication can be evaluated quickly and any modifications in dose to alleviate the patient's symptoms can be adjusted rapidly.
However, if and when the medication has to be discontinued or dosage reduced, it must be tapered gradually because on discontinuation the effect of rapid steady state works in reverse. If discontinuation occurs to fast, blood levels drop quickly, resulting in what some people experience as withdrawl symptoms you describe.
The same occurs with some of the short acting SSRI/SNRI medications as well, and the misunderstanding of how these medications work and not following the doctor's instructions on tapering the dose when discontinuing these medications result in misconceptions being propogated on unreliable internet sites.
@Daniel:
Thanks Daniel! I will experiment with the different arm levels when taking my BP at home! I used to get VERY high readings with the automated BP machines in drug stores - until I learned how to properly situate my arm in the cuff. Then I was able to get the same results as my DR. But... both methods have my arm hanging down or resting.
I can't wait to try this! THanks Daniel!
@Steve:
Hey thanks for the detailed info on Ativan. I think I should clarify that I take the sublingual version and that this is not available everywhere like it is here in Canada. You made excellent points regarding it's use - I used to wait until I was in a near panic state before medicating. By then, an adrenaline dump was already on it's way, and medicating at that point probably just added dizziness to the adrenaline dump! But medicating as I notice anxiety levels increasing seems to work better (and it's what the paramedics have been trying to tell me and I am sure they see their fair share of anxiety patients). For me, the trick is to know when "self soothing" techniques are not going to work. My goal is to no longer need meds for anxiety but learn how to deal with both "acute" stressful situations ('crisis' at work) and more "general long term life stressors" like parenting.
Anyways, I did go to sleep easily last night with no meds at 1:00am. It's not bad because I have flex hours and can sleep in a bit. I got about 7.5 hours with only one or two short awakenings (which is good for someone with sleep apnea I guess).
I was very anxious this morning but I started using my new EMDR techniques and my "CALM" word. I did some breathing exercises and some "self-affirmation" self-talk. I also fed the kids breakfast and talked to them and that always makes me feel better. They're actually a source of strength when they're not stressing me out! The combination worked well, but the tender spot under the left side of my jawbone and the cold sweat on my forehead were a bit worrysome. I do grind my teeth.... but jaw pain is nothing to ignore since I am now in my early 40's... Time to see the doctor! Jaw pain is gone and forehead is warm and dry now - no chest sweating either. And stress is high today... not too bad. Not too bad at all.... I am managing!
I am finally starting to feel "centered" and in my "zone" again after that trip. Travelling is indeed a big upset for me - it's hard to do and it takes days if not a week to get back into my groove after returning. It's really nice to be home. I am quite effective at work here today, and getting complex (and time sensitive) problems done like clockwork. I can admit that I feel a bit of the benefit of the break - in there somewhere. But I do need to lower the over-all stress level of travel. It's very taxing on my mind and body. I am taking my Vitamin B complex (stresstabs) in the morning and they seem to be helping.
Thanks again Steve, for your excellent replies.
Cheers,
-Big Ben
Thanks Daniel! I will experiment with the different arm levels when taking my BP at home! I used to get VERY high readings with the automated BP machines in drug stores - until I learned how to properly situate my arm in the cuff. Then I was able to get the same results as my DR. But... both methods have my arm hanging down or resting.
I can't wait to try this! THanks Daniel!
@Steve:
Hey thanks for the detailed info on Ativan. I think I should clarify that I take the sublingual version and that this is not available everywhere like it is here in Canada. You made excellent points regarding it's use - I used to wait until I was in a near panic state before medicating. By then, an adrenaline dump was already on it's way, and medicating at that point probably just added dizziness to the adrenaline dump! But medicating as I notice anxiety levels increasing seems to work better (and it's what the paramedics have been trying to tell me and I am sure they see their fair share of anxiety patients). For me, the trick is to know when "self soothing" techniques are not going to work. My goal is to no longer need meds for anxiety but learn how to deal with both "acute" stressful situations ('crisis' at work) and more "general long term life stressors" like parenting.
Anyways, I did go to sleep easily last night with no meds at 1:00am. It's not bad because I have flex hours and can sleep in a bit. I got about 7.5 hours with only one or two short awakenings (which is good for someone with sleep apnea I guess).
I was very anxious this morning but I started using my new EMDR techniques and my "CALM" word. I did some breathing exercises and some "self-affirmation" self-talk. I also fed the kids breakfast and talked to them and that always makes me feel better. They're actually a source of strength when they're not stressing me out! The combination worked well, but the tender spot under the left side of my jawbone and the cold sweat on my forehead were a bit worrysome. I do grind my teeth.... but jaw pain is nothing to ignore since I am now in my early 40's... Time to see the doctor! Jaw pain is gone and forehead is warm and dry now - no chest sweating either. And stress is high today... not too bad. Not too bad at all.... I am managing!
I am finally starting to feel "centered" and in my "zone" again after that trip. Travelling is indeed a big upset for me - it's hard to do and it takes days if not a week to get back into my groove after returning. It's really nice to be home. I am quite effective at work here today, and getting complex (and time sensitive) problems done like clockwork. I can admit that I feel a bit of the benefit of the break - in there somewhere. But I do need to lower the over-all stress level of travel. It's very taxing on my mind and body. I am taking my Vitamin B complex (stresstabs) in the morning and they seem to be helping.
Thanks again Steve, for your excellent replies.
Cheers,
-Big Ben
Yes, the Canadian division of the manufacturer developed and then marketed the sublingual form in Canada, but it was not adopted elsewhere. Nevertheless, oral tablets of Ativan can be administered sublingually and the molecules will be absorbed; however, there will be a little bit of residue remaining under the tongue from the binding ingredients required in the manufacture of oral tablets, that are not used in the sublingual form.
It is not clear whether generic oral lorazepam is absorbed sublingually, and there is no generic form of sublingual lorazepam in Canada to my knowledge.
Steve:
You are the psych meds guru! Thanks for the information on this often misunderstood and often feared medication.
I know that there were times that this drug was instrumental in getting me through tough times - especially in work-related situations where to succumb to panic and/or become frantic would have had very negative career consequences - to say the very least!!
For short term relief of anxiety (in my case) it's a wonder drug. I guess the trick is the same as with all drugs - to find the balance between insufficient use and overuse. You're right - there is no point in taking it if you just carry it along as a security blanket. Then again, sometimes just knowing I had it was all I needed to "push through". Ah, yes. The mind: probably the most poweful "drug dispenser" at our disposal... Now, where is the "Human Brain Manual" hiding.....
Cheers,
-Big Ben
You are the psych meds guru! Thanks for the information on this often misunderstood and often feared medication.
I know that there were times that this drug was instrumental in getting me through tough times - especially in work-related situations where to succumb to panic and/or become frantic would have had very negative career consequences - to say the very least!!
For short term relief of anxiety (in my case) it's a wonder drug. I guess the trick is the same as with all drugs - to find the balance between insufficient use and overuse. You're right - there is no point in taking it if you just carry it along as a security blanket. Then again, sometimes just knowing I had it was all I needed to "push through". Ah, yes. The mind: probably the most poweful "drug dispenser" at our disposal... Now, where is the "Human Brain Manual" hiding.....
Cheers,
-Big Ben
Update:
My wife and two kids, her mother, her sister & her hubby, and her brother (5 adults and 2 kids) went to the mountains yesterday leaving me and my father-in-law behind (we're both super busy at work). Although I would prefer to be there (to guide my kids, show them things and ultimately protect them should anything arise) they are with the people I trust the most. I know they are having a good time and learning new things - but I have a strong desire to be there the next time. My 3 y.o. boy "wants to climb a mountain" and they wanted to stop and pet the deer they saw along the roadside. I imagine them experiencing this but of course seeing it myself would be a whole lot better... I'm just really glad my wife took them there.
My psychiatrist is going to double my "anti-anxiety" tricyclic anti-d dosage from 20 to 40mg and double my "anti-anxiety" gabapentin dosage from 300 x 3 daily to 600 x 3 daily. I am concerned about this and worry about discontinuation as well as long term health affects including weight and cholesterol - risk factors for me genetically. But I want to try - she really does not want me using ativan for anxiety control. She did not refill my ativan and I don't recall if I failed to ask or if she had no intention! I really would not want to travel - especially long distances or to stressful work related places - without it.
I think I'll try the new med dosages and perhaps go for a trip and see what happens. I have 10 ativan left... kind of scary. I used about 10 for sleep during a rough spot of working too much and 10 more during my last trip. That leaves 10 / 30 left... 20 ativan since my last refill in June... not bad I guess. I wish I would have used only the over-the-counter sleep aid, but it has such a bad hangover quality and, in my estimation, has an even higher tolerance and dependency risk than ativan!!
Cheers,
-Big Ben
My wife and two kids, her mother, her sister & her hubby, and her brother (5 adults and 2 kids) went to the mountains yesterday leaving me and my father-in-law behind (we're both super busy at work). Although I would prefer to be there (to guide my kids, show them things and ultimately protect them should anything arise) they are with the people I trust the most. I know they are having a good time and learning new things - but I have a strong desire to be there the next time. My 3 y.o. boy "wants to climb a mountain" and they wanted to stop and pet the deer they saw along the roadside. I imagine them experiencing this but of course seeing it myself would be a whole lot better... I'm just really glad my wife took them there.
My psychiatrist is going to double my "anti-anxiety" tricyclic anti-d dosage from 20 to 40mg and double my "anti-anxiety" gabapentin dosage from 300 x 3 daily to 600 x 3 daily. I am concerned about this and worry about discontinuation as well as long term health affects including weight and cholesterol - risk factors for me genetically. But I want to try - she really does not want me using ativan for anxiety control. She did not refill my ativan and I don't recall if I failed to ask or if she had no intention! I really would not want to travel - especially long distances or to stressful work related places - without it.
I think I'll try the new med dosages and perhaps go for a trip and see what happens. I have 10 ativan left... kind of scary. I used about 10 for sleep during a rough spot of working too much and 10 more during my last trip. That leaves 10 / 30 left... 20 ativan since my last refill in June... not bad I guess. I wish I would have used only the over-the-counter sleep aid, but it has such a bad hangover quality and, in my estimation, has an even higher tolerance and dependency risk than ativan!!
Cheers,
-Big Ben
Whatever happened to traveling small distances first, and then gradually extending the traveling time.... ? Hmmmm?
Jollygreen:
There are still plans to do that... my wife was just REALLY insistent on taking the kids to the mountains, 5 hours away. Interestingly, I used to travel (daily) for a number of months to a nearby town (45 minutes out of town) with little trouble. I also used to travel further to a mine site about 1 hour out of town. My worst anxiety level is during snow storms, morning time, in darkness. Next to that would be heavy rain / severe thunderstorms. But panic on the highway for me can come out of the blue in the finest of conditions with the finest destination imaginable waiting for me. Over seas travel seems impossible. I have travelled by air about 6 times now and only a couple of times were horrible, with the other four having about "moderate" anxiety. Then again, I would medicate - often considerably - before boarding. I still recall the itchy skin and cold clammy hands in the boarding areas. Briefcase and site-related protective garb in hand - looking at all the other people who seemed to view air travel as about as necessary and mundane as going to the toilet.
The summer will be over soon - one more month. Then my "pressure to travel" will have diminished considerably. But i fear work related travel is around the bend. I loathe work related travel because for me it involves going to industrial worksites in the middle of nowhere. My career choice is a major source of anxiety and depression for me, and sadly I could have made more as an accountant looking what accountants make 20 years in. This career sucks. High stress, relatively low pay and poor benefits, and an increasing demand for people in my 'area' to travel. I have 20 years experience and the new kid they hired now has 2 years experience and makes 75% of what i make!! I have clearly hit a ceiling in remuneration here. They used to have field service people do the site work and testing - now they want designers, checkers and project managers to do it. Convenient! The latter people make less than "full time field people" in many cases, so it's a REAL BARGAIN to send them to the field! Tradesmen make 1.5x overtime, where 'office people on the road' get banked time overtime - if they're lucky!
Maybe it's not too late for a career change. I really don't think much of what I do anymore. It's just a paycheck. I'd paint walls if I could do it in town for what I make. In fact, I bet many painters do! Pathetic really.
Cheers,
-Big Ben
There are still plans to do that... my wife was just REALLY insistent on taking the kids to the mountains, 5 hours away. Interestingly, I used to travel (daily) for a number of months to a nearby town (45 minutes out of town) with little trouble. I also used to travel further to a mine site about 1 hour out of town. My worst anxiety level is during snow storms, morning time, in darkness. Next to that would be heavy rain / severe thunderstorms. But panic on the highway for me can come out of the blue in the finest of conditions with the finest destination imaginable waiting for me. Over seas travel seems impossible. I have travelled by air about 6 times now and only a couple of times were horrible, with the other four having about "moderate" anxiety. Then again, I would medicate - often considerably - before boarding. I still recall the itchy skin and cold clammy hands in the boarding areas. Briefcase and site-related protective garb in hand - looking at all the other people who seemed to view air travel as about as necessary and mundane as going to the toilet.
The summer will be over soon - one more month. Then my "pressure to travel" will have diminished considerably. But i fear work related travel is around the bend. I loathe work related travel because for me it involves going to industrial worksites in the middle of nowhere. My career choice is a major source of anxiety and depression for me, and sadly I could have made more as an accountant looking what accountants make 20 years in. This career sucks. High stress, relatively low pay and poor benefits, and an increasing demand for people in my 'area' to travel. I have 20 years experience and the new kid they hired now has 2 years experience and makes 75% of what i make!! I have clearly hit a ceiling in remuneration here. They used to have field service people do the site work and testing - now they want designers, checkers and project managers to do it. Convenient! The latter people make less than "full time field people" in many cases, so it's a REAL BARGAIN to send them to the field! Tradesmen make 1.5x overtime, where 'office people on the road' get banked time overtime - if they're lucky!
Maybe it's not too late for a career change. I really don't think much of what I do anymore. It's just a paycheck. I'd paint walls if I could do it in town for what I make. In fact, I bet many painters do! Pathetic really.
Cheers,
-Big Ben
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