Concerned about benzodiazepines

[Nicollette]

I belong to four different benzodiazepine forums for people who have unknowingly become addicted to these horrible drugs due to doctor prescriptions.

For over 20 years I have been on xanax, first at 2mg. then 3mg. and after doing a crossover to valium, tapered down to 1.75mg. xanax. I feel hopeless that I can ever get off this drug!

I see a psychiatrist and a psychologist but they cannot help as I know most of my symptoms are due to this horrid drug. I read the stories of how many many people are 18 months, 24 months benzo free and still having bad derealization/depersonalization along with many other unbearable symptoms!

When I tapered the valium I was using liquid and got down to 10 mg. before my stupid psychiatrist put me back on xanax; she said I was suffering too much! I wish I had continued; back in 2004, I would have been off them by now.

I know this is not a forum for drugs and forgive me if I have posted in the wrong area. I don't know why I am even posting as I feel hopeless that I will ever be free. Now I am exhibiting symptoms of tolerance withdrawal; I feel scared sometimes to leave my house or make a phone call to a friend. Other times I am okay. I also drink a glass or two of wine most days which I know does not help matters.

I feel like giving up therapy as I know what is really wrong and my psychologist can't help me go through the worst withdrawals; worse than heroin. Look it up. It's true.

 

[Daniel E.]

Re: My life ruined by iatrogenic benzodiazepines

Now I am exhibiting symptoms of tolerance withdrawal; I feel scared sometimes to leave my house or make a phone call to a friend.

That's not necessarily a withdrawal symptom as people who have anxiety are more likely to have social anxiety.

 

[Retired]

Re: My life ruined by iatrogenic benzodiazepines

Have you had a frank discussion with your psychiatrist about exploring other ways of controlling your symptoms, if you feel you don't want to take benzodiazepines?

What options has your psychiatrist offered you?

As Daniel has alluded to, perhaps your doctor needs to know about your fear of going out of your house.

You are quite right that taking alcohol while taking benzodiazepines is not recommended and can make matters worse.

How can we be of help on Psychlinks, that the other venues you have visited might not have offered?

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Re: My life ruined by iatrogenic benzodiazepines

I belong to four different benzodiazepine forums for people who have unknowingly become addicted to these horrible drugs due to doctor prescriptions.

Beware of such forums. You are only going to get one viewpoint at those places and that viewpoint is unfortunately not constrained by lack of evidence for the claims made.

Benzodiazepines are not for everyone but to label them as "horrible drugs" is a disservice to the thousands or millions of people who have been helped by them.

 

[NicNak]

The Clonizapam I was prescribed was a life safer. I take mine as needed if my anxiety gets bad leading to possable panic attacks. Before when I had the panic attacks, I had to leave and go home.

When the panic attack went full course, I was exhausted for 3 days with flu like symptoms. Add to that the embarassment I felt for having the panic attack to begin with, would result in me being afraid to go back where the panic attack took place.

I am not sure how you are prescribed to take yours. I do not take mine daily, only as needed.

If I compare how it was before taking the Clonasipam to now, I will risk it. I have taken Clonasipam now for 5 years on a as needed basis. For a while it was about 4 a week. I have gone weeks without needing one though.

Like the rest of the people say. I wouldn't want you to be clouded by an anti-benzo's site. As that is the focus of the site. I for one have benefited greatly from taking Clonazipam. I would not say I am addicted to them.

I was also on Risperidal for 4 years, which is an anti-psychotic. Anytime we lower or alter my dosage or meds. My doctors and I make sure that it is clear which symptoms are from withdrawl and which are the symptoms of my condition itself. It is important to realize that some things one might consider to be withdrawls are infact the mental illness symptoms coming back. When that happens to me, it just reminds me that I require them to function to a somewhat normal level.

 

[amastie]

Hi Nicollette,

welcome to PsychLinks

I can only speak from my experience, but after years of many other kinds of medications, the benzos were the only type of drug to consistently help ward off the most dificult aspects of my problem. I took Valium for about 26 years on an as-needed basis and although I developed a level of tolerance to itover that time, I never suffered from addiction, had no trouble not taking it for days or weeks and changed to Xanax only because smaller doses was needed. Yesterday, for the first time in around 37 years, I questioned whether I might finally have developed an addiction to the Xanax because I've been feeling more anxious - till I realized that other, physical symptoms which I recognize are caused by an entirely unrelated problem, always cause me to be more anxious at those times anyway. So the reason for your anxiety might be one of any number of reasons. Only a qualified psychiatrist with knowledge of you and also of benzos and other meds can really know how best to advise you.

My two bits

 

[Atlantean]

I have been on clonopin for three years now, and it in addition to the thorazine have been a lifesaver. Of course, I have been trying to get off both drugs for a year and a half now, and I can really share your frustration at the system which keeps us medicated on medications that for our own well being we'd rather not be on.

 

[Retired]

I can really share your frustration at the system which keeps us medicated on medications that for our own well being we'd rather now be on.

I disagree with your characterization which implies a sinister medical system conspires to medicate people contrary to their desires driven by some self serving motive.

Perhaps it was not your intention, but it's the kind of rhetoric sometimes heard from anti medicine and anti psychiatry activists.

Allow me to explain why I disagree with your statement.

Modern medicine is a scientific discipline, where options for treatment are evidence based. Physicians, for the most part, are compassionate, ethical individuals whose primary motivation is to find scientifically supported strategies to treat their patients without doing harm.

One of those strategies may include the use of medications, which are judiciously used when indicated.

In the case of psychotropic medications (those used to treat mental illness) there is often no "one dosage treats all" formula. Furthermore, within this specialty, not everyone's body/brain chemistry responds to every compound in the same way; sometimes the response does not produce the expected therapeutic effect, while at other times, there may be adverse effects.

Using a combination of skill, art and clinical experience, a physician will make modifications in the treatment by altering dosages and or compounds until the right combination is achieved.

This process often takes weeks, months and even years because every person responds differently.

There is no "system" trying to undermine society by medicating people against their will.

When sitting across the desk from one's physician, an informed patient will have a conversation with their physician about their treatment options, discussing the benefits versus the risks of each of the options and in partnership with their doctor, select the treatment option that suits their needs best.

It is the responsibility of the patient to be informed and to work in parnership with the physician.

When working in partnership with your doctor, no doctor can make you do what you don't want to do.

As an informed patient, you always have the right to seek a second opinion, if you feel uncertain about the recommendations of your primary physician.

 

[forgetmenot]

hi Nicollette i hope you are able to talk with your doctor and get the help you need you really have to work with him in order for you to stay well he has only your best interest take care mary

 

[Nicollette]

Thanks to all for your interest and input on benzodiazepines.

As far as social anxiety or any kind of anxiety, before I ever went on a benzo, I was slightly anxious and I can surely differentiate between real anxiety and that which is caused by "withdrawal". I did not imagine symptoms which came from a forum, as was seemingly suggested.

I did taper down to 10mg. of valium several years ago after doing a slow crossover from alprazolam, the Heather Ashton method.

Here is what she has to say about psychological symptoms in withdrawal and I did experience most, if not all of them:

"PSYCHOLOGICAL SYMPTOMS
Excitability (jumpiness, restlessness)
Insomnia, nightmares, other sleep disturbances
Increased anxiety, panic attacks
Agoraphobia, social phobia
Perceptual distortions
Depersonalisation, derealisation
Hallucinations, misperceptions
Depression
Obsessions
Paranoid thoughts
Rage, aggression, irritability
Poor memory and concentration
Intrusive memories
Craving (rare)"

those are from her manual, the "bible" on how to discontinue benzodiazepines. I just wish people would realize the seriousness of taking these drugs! I never had the internet when I went on them, and yes, it was still my fault! My psychiatrist is a woman, director of the outpatient psychiatry and a Harvard graduate but most pdocs know little to nothing of tapering off a psych medication.

I have since corresponded with a nice Christian woman who is a senior moderator on one of the forums and came off Klonopin directly. She maintained a positive attitude throughout and is the person I am going to now continue to work with when I begin my next taper in the spring.

Thanks for "listening". I appreciate the encouragement.

 

[forgetmenot]

i hope you are successful in what you wish to obtain with your medication treatment i disagree with the statement that most psychiatric doctors know nothing of tapering off psych meds they psych doctors are very educated in the use of these meds it just that everyone reacts differently to them
take care of yourself nicollette try talking with your pdoc okay mary

 

[amastie]

We do the best that we can.
Good luck

 

[Jazzey]

those are from her manual, the "bible" on how to discontinue benzodiazepines. I just wish people would realize the seriousness of taking these drugs! I never had the internet when I went on them, and yes, it was still my fault! My psychiatrist is a woman, director of the outpatient psychiatry and a Harvard graduate but most pdocs know little to nothing of tapering off a psych medication.

I have since corresponded with a nice Christian woman who is a senior moderator on one of the forums and came off Klonopin directly. She maintained a positive attitude throughout and is the person I am going to now continue to work with when I begin my next taper in the spring.

Thanks for "listening". I appreciate the encouragement.

Hi Nicollette,

The prescribing doctor has the responsibility to educate his/her patients on the dangers and possible side-effects of these medications. He or she is also responsible for supervising the tapering off of these medications because of the potential symptoms which accompany some of these meds.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with some of these. However, I hope you recognize that some patients need them for their illnesses. I would hope that they would seek medical advice and listen to their practitioners. As they are the ones who know the intricate details of the patient.

That's why we don't recommend getting advice over the internet. As internet users, we only get a snippet of information from that person and, you have no way of knowing who exactly is giving you advice. Are they even qualified to diagnose or give advice pertaining to mental illness and the various medications we take to get better?

For any patient who is dissatisfied with their prescribing doctor, I would recommend a second opinion from a doctor holding the appropriate credentials.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Have you ever seen the list of possible side effects for common OTC medications like aspirin, Tylenol, cold medicines, etc., etc.?

The fact that a side-effect is possible doesn't in itself tell you how likely it is. You've posted a list of possible side effects that is essentially meaningless, because it doesn't tell you (1) what percentage of people who have used the medications have actually ever experienced that side effect; or (2) how many people in the placebo control groups also experienced that side effect.

And again, to characterize benzodiazepines as some sort of "devil drugs" is unfair, unscientific, and dangerous in that it may well discourage other people from trying a medication prescribed by their physicians that in all likelihood would prove to be very beneficial to them.

See my article, Making sense of medication side-effects, for more information on interpreting actual risks of side-effects in medications.

 

[NicNak]

Everyone reacts differently to tapering off of medications as Mary and others have stated.

Most people were shocked that I was able to drop one 37.5mg dosage a month of Effexor, (supervised by my doctor, monitored for symptom relapse etc) I went from 287.5 to 150mg with very little withdrawl. I had been on Effexor for 4 years. All the things I had read about the withdraws stated brutal withdrawl effects. I had a minor headache for the first week and that was all.

My doctor monitored each dosage drop for relapse. At one point I was almost euphoric and the doctor suggested I take it down again another level, to 150mg where I am now.

I agree to be cautious of the anti-benzo, anti-Psychiatry and Psychology sites.

There are no sites against the use of insulin for diabetic folks, that I am aware of. Someone with diabedes can possably taper off their insulin at certian points in their life, depending on the severity of their condition. Sometimes the dosage has to be increased or alternate medications required. Other situations it can be controlled at times without medication.

No one would never say that doctors who prescibe insulin are keeping people with diabedes in a cycle of dependancy on insulin.

I see mental illness in the same way.


As Jazzey and others have said many people have had great benifits of taking benzo's. I happen to be one of them.

What does your Psychiatrist or Psychologist say about you wanting to taper off your benzo's? Is it something they have suggested at this point of your treatment?

For myself personally, I have been on various anti-depressants, in the 14 years of my condition. For 5 years I was on an SNRI, and anti-psychotic and the benzo as needed. I was also prescribed an SSRI along with this cocktail, but due to side effects I could not stay on it. (my doctors understood and agreed), but mediction truly saved my life and I understood for the need of them.

I have strong memories of how I felt before meds. Feeling like I was going to go crazy all the time, the panic attacks, the racing, intrusive thoughts, the self harming, the bursting out crying, the nightmares. I definately couldn't stay that way. I will take the medication over the alternative.

I wish you all the best. I hope you consider that you may just require the medication, or consider a second opinion from another Psychiatrist or Psychologist.

 

[Nicollette]

Dear doctor,

That's all well and true, and I am not trying to be argumentative; however I did taper down from 3mg. xanax by transferring to diazepam and reducing it down to 10mg. (equivalent of .5mg. xanax), and I DID have these side effects, at least two-thirds of them!

Here is a quote from Professor Ashton's manual which is inarguable in my opinion:
"Tolerance to the anxiolytic effects develops more slowly but there is little evidence that benzodiazepines retain their effectiveness after a few months. In fact long-term benzodiazepine use may even aggravate anxiety disorders. Many patients find that anxiety symptoms gradually increase over the years despite continuous benzodiazepine use, and panic attacks and agoraphobia may appear for the first time after years of chronic use. Such worsening of symptoms during long-term benzodiazepine use is probably due to the development of tolerance to the anxiolytic effects, so that "withdrawal" symptoms emerge even in the continued presence of the drugs. However, tolerance may not be complete and chronic users sometimes report continued efficacy, which may be partly due to suppression of withdrawal effects. Nevertheless, in most cases such symptoms gradually disappear after successful tapering and withdrawal of benzodiazepines. Among the first 50 patients attending my clinic, 10 patients became agoraphobic for the first time while taking benzodiazepines. Agoraphobic symptoms abated dramatically within a year of withdrawal, even in patients who had been housebound, and none were incapacitated by agoraphobia at the time of follow-up (10 months to 3.5 years after withdrawal)."

thanks and I am sorry. If you want to kick me off this board, then you will have to go ahead and do it because I did suffer and it was NOT rebound or whatever they call it : I was never as anxious or crazy or never agoraphobic before benzodiazepines. They turned on me and I will not be talked down to and told it was all me. {edit: anti-med reference} Yes they can be useful in limited circumstances. For me, I was never panic-stricken or crippled with anxiety BEFORE taking these drugs.

 

[Jazzey]

Hi Nicollette,

I don't think people are disbelieving you. It's really unfortunate that you had that experience. Really. I think what we were all saying, or at least me, is that side-effects are contingent on the patient.

I'm happy you shared with us. I just don't want others to be turned off medications if their doctors tell them they're necessary. :hug:

 

[Lana]

Hi Nicolette;
I'm sorry that you're having such a difficult time with the meds. I won't argue with you, sometimes, some meds don't agree with one person and are perfect for another. I hope you don't feel invalidated here. It is very possible that those particular drugs are not working for you. But that doesn't make them bad for everyone. For some, they're ideal and have no side-effects.

So, while I won't tell you to keep using something that is harming you, I'd encourage you to see your doctor and try to change the dosage or type of medication that fits you best. And I ask that you not "warn everyone" about the drug since not everyone has that same reaction. There are always risks and possibility of a reaction...unfortunately, they didn't work for you...that doesn't make them bad.....just not for you.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Here is a quote from Professor Ashton's manual which is inarguable in my opinion:

"Tolerance to the anxiolytic effects develops more slowly but there is little evidence that benzodiazepines retain their effectiveness after a few months. In fact long-term benzodiazepine use may even aggravate anxiety disorders. Many patients find that anxiety symptoms gradually increase over the years despite continuous benzodiazepine use, and panic attacks and agoraphobia may appear for the first time after years of chronic use. Such worsening of symptoms during long-term benzodiazepine use is probably due to the development of tolerance to the anxiolytic effects, so that "withdrawal" symptoms emerge even in the continued presence of the drugs. However, tolerance may not be complete and chronic users sometimes report continued efficacy, which may be partly due to suppression of withdrawal effects. Nevertheless, in most cases such symptoms gradually disappear after successful tapering and withdrawal of benzodiazepines. Among the first 50 patients attending my clinic, 10 patients became agoraphobic for the first time while taking benzodiazepines. Agoraphobic symptoms abated dramatically within a year of withdrawal, even in patients who had been housebound, and none were incapacitated by agoraphobia at the time of follow-up (10 months to 3.5 years after withdrawal)."

It's not inarguable at all. With all due respect to Professor Ashton, that passage is nonsense.

Certainly, there are people who develop tolerance to certain medications and who experience adverse side-effects. But to claim or imply that all do or that "there is little evidence that benzodiazepines retain their effectiveness after a few months" or that benzodiazepines routinely cause anxiety disorders and agoraphobia is just patently false.

 

[Nicollette]

Well if Professor Ashton is spouting nonsense, perhaps you are the expert on benzodiazepines then? I'm sure she would be glad of your advise.

I can see that it is a waste of time discussing this here. I won't mention it again. No need to. They speak for themselves.