Hi. I am new here. I am really having a hard time with some mother issues. I am not sure if she is narcissistic, but she is definitely self-centered. We didn't have a lot of conflict when I was growing up because I completely gave up my identity. I learned early that she was perfect and that it was my job to keep her happy. She stole my childhood. She got mad at me the other day because I don't visit her enough. I call her nearly every day and visit once or twice a week. She rarely calls me and never visits. She then talked about how my family didn't "gather around" when she had breast cancer. I said, "Like you did when I had breast cancer?" She screamed, "How dare you! How dare you!" and hung up. I thought to myself, "I will never call her back. I will cut her off completely. I felt so calm. But then she called and I went over. She said she was sorry she hung up but I had to understand, surely, after all I've been through (I have bipolar disorder and was hospitalized a lot and had a ton of issues besides). When I was diagnosed with breast cancer she was devastated. It was the last straw. So many things had happened to her. First her son killed himself, then I got sick and then (she didn't mention it was 20 years later) I got breast cancer. It was more than she could bear. I have my husband and kids. Who does she have. On and on. I left feeling sorry for her as usual, but hating her, too.
- Thread starter je9je9
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Thehurtstopshere
Member
All I can say is I know how you feel.
I went through this with my own mother, so I know how you feel too. If you confront them they flip out, if you don't coddle them they make you feel guilt. I just bought the book, Enough of you, How About Me.
Please feel free to vent here! We all do it. Have at it! 8D
Thanks a lot 
I feel like I'm having a really hard time right now because my mom got upset with me for not visiting enough and hung up on me and I thought, "I won't call back. I will never call back. I will tell her we're through." And I felt so good. And then of course she called me and I ran to her side like I always do and I'm struggling with all these feelings because she is so outwardly nice. People like my mom. But she's such a fake. She always gets what she wants. I am always keeping the peace with her, always walking on eggshells. It's so hard to explain. I'll go to visit her and by all outward appearances, it was a perfectly pleasant encounter. Someone looking in does not know why, when I leave, I can dissect the visit and say, "That woman drives me crazy." It's so crazy making because it's so subtle and so hard to explain. Until I got married I was sure I was the crazy one and then my husband said, oh no, she is a real work of art. Now my daughter doesn't want to go over there because she doesn't want to play grandma's game. My mom's always right. A lot of the reason it looks all right from the outside is because I've always been the peacemaker, always keep my mom happy. In the last couple of years I've really started disagreeing with her and not playing her game and she's a lot unhappier with me. I mean, she can't even stand it if she says she doesn't like a movie and I say I liked it. She will go on and on about why it wasn't a good movie, what parts were stupid, how lowbrow it was (she, of course, makes the standard by which all things are judged), how could anyone have liked it, it just goes to show what's becoming of American people. We had some family therapy when I was in my early twenties because my brother committed suicide and I ended up hospitalized many times. I have bipolar disorder, but also had (have!) a ton of issues. It came as a surprise to her that calling me fat-head every time I didn't know something when I was a kid might have made me a little unsure of myself. After our family therapy sessions she would talk to me about how badly my dad was doing in therapy, how she only made me her confidante because dad was such a bad mate and how, of course, she loved me more than he ever did. She was working so hard to make me better and if he loved me as much as she did, then I would be getting better twice as fast. Of course, I was so used to this I didn't think to mention it to the family therapist LOL. Anyway, I mention the family therapy because I think it shook her to be blamed by a professional for so much, that she will imply that the activities my family and I enjoy are beneath her, but doesn't quite call me stupid. I'm not saying that right. My brother, the golden child committed suicide when he was 17 and I was 16 so I became the golden child once removed so I have a slightly tarnished halo, but a halo nonetheless. I can do wrong, but not so wrong as I once did. Thus she doesn't understand why I can't let the past be in the past. She doesn't see that the dynamic is still drastically flawed. She thinks that a year or two of family therapy fixed all that was wrong and we're one big happy family. I don't think I could ever just cut her out of my life. She is 78 and has no one to help her if she gets infirm. On the other hand, I am praying she dies suddenly in her sleep because the thought of her going slowly and having to look after her fills me with a dread so deep it sends me into panic. She is not one to suffer stoically. Thanks for listening.
I feel like I'm having a really hard time right now because my mom got upset with me for not visiting enough and hung up on me and I thought, "I won't call back. I will never call back. I will tell her we're through." And I felt so good. And then of course she called me and I ran to her side like I always do and I'm struggling with all these feelings because she is so outwardly nice. People like my mom. But she's such a fake. She always gets what she wants. I am always keeping the peace with her, always walking on eggshells. It's so hard to explain. I'll go to visit her and by all outward appearances, it was a perfectly pleasant encounter. Someone looking in does not know why, when I leave, I can dissect the visit and say, "That woman drives me crazy." It's so crazy making because it's so subtle and so hard to explain. Until I got married I was sure I was the crazy one and then my husband said, oh no, she is a real work of art. Now my daughter doesn't want to go over there because she doesn't want to play grandma's game. My mom's always right. A lot of the reason it looks all right from the outside is because I've always been the peacemaker, always keep my mom happy. In the last couple of years I've really started disagreeing with her and not playing her game and she's a lot unhappier with me. I mean, she can't even stand it if she says she doesn't like a movie and I say I liked it. She will go on and on about why it wasn't a good movie, what parts were stupid, how lowbrow it was (she, of course, makes the standard by which all things are judged), how could anyone have liked it, it just goes to show what's becoming of American people. We had some family therapy when I was in my early twenties because my brother committed suicide and I ended up hospitalized many times. I have bipolar disorder, but also had (have!) a ton of issues. It came as a surprise to her that calling me fat-head every time I didn't know something when I was a kid might have made me a little unsure of myself. After our family therapy sessions she would talk to me about how badly my dad was doing in therapy, how she only made me her confidante because dad was such a bad mate and how, of course, she loved me more than he ever did. She was working so hard to make me better and if he loved me as much as she did, then I would be getting better twice as fast. Of course, I was so used to this I didn't think to mention it to the family therapist LOL. Anyway, I mention the family therapy because I think it shook her to be blamed by a professional for so much, that she will imply that the activities my family and I enjoy are beneath her, but doesn't quite call me stupid. I'm not saying that right. My brother, the golden child committed suicide when he was 17 and I was 16 so I became the golden child once removed so I have a slightly tarnished halo, but a halo nonetheless. I can do wrong, but not so wrong as I once did. Thus she doesn't understand why I can't let the past be in the past. She doesn't see that the dynamic is still drastically flawed. She thinks that a year or two of family therapy fixed all that was wrong and we're one big happy family. I don't think I could ever just cut her out of my life. She is 78 and has no one to help her if she gets infirm. On the other hand, I am praying she dies suddenly in her sleep because the thought of her going slowly and having to look after her fills me with a dread so deep it sends me into panic. She is not one to suffer stoically. Thanks for listening.Heatherly, I know exactly what you mean. I struggled with this and the best way it was described to me is you would honor her by being a person who deserves respect and doesn't settle for less than you deserve. I have to remind myself of this everyday and take it to heart. I gave my parents all the respect, loyalty and love that I could and they didn't return it. It really sux! It is something that we all struggle with regularly throughout the game they play with our heads. It's a tactic that seems to be a reoccuring theme with everyone on here. My mother is the narcissist and my father is her enabler. My parents are getting older and I long to care for them but it's not just about me. The way they treat me and my reaction to it is having an effect on my husband and son. They are my priority now and that's how it should be. It's a minute, daily, weekly struggle and I hope that with time it will be easier. But like you I am early in the game. Take care of yourself.
I hope je9je9 is steal reading the forum.
I have come to the conclusion after reading more about Narcissism that you can even walk away from family. I spent years calling my mother once a week and getting verbal abuse with almost each phone call. I did it up to a few days before she passed, and when she passed I thought, "No more abuse," but my two sisters took it up after she passed away. To honor a parent they have to be doing honorable things. And where does this guilt come from in which if you walk away you feel horrible? Maybe from their brainwashing? Maybe from religion?
Even Buddhism failed to show me that it was not a good idea to allow them to abuse me, and now that I have left Buddhism I see that there is a Buddhist teacher that is wise.
Here is what she said:
Pema: Idiot compassion is a great expression, which was actually coined by Trungpa Rinpoche. It refers to something we all do a lot of and call it compassion. In some ways, it's whats called enabling. It's the general tendency to give people what they want because you can't bear to see them suffering. Basically, you're not giving them what they need. You're trying to get away from your feeling of I can't bear to see them suffering. In other words, you're doing it for yourself. You're not really doing it for them.
When you get clear on this kind of thing, setting good boundaries and so forth, you know that if someone is violent, for instance, and is being violent towards you —to use that as the example— it's not the compassionate thing to keep allowing that to happen, allowing someone to keep being able to feed their violence and their aggression. So of course, they're going to freak out and be extremely upset. And it will be quite difficult for you to go through the process of actually leaving the situation. But that's the compassionate thing to do.
It's the compassionate thing to do for yourself, because you're part of that dynamic, and before you always stayed. So now you're going to do something frightening, groundless, and quite different. But it's the compassionate thing to do for yourself, rather than stay in a demeaning, destructive, abusive relationship.
And it's the most compassionate thing you can do for them too. They will certainly not thank you for it, and they will certainly not be glad. They'll go through a lot. But if there's any chance for them to wake up or start to work on their side of the problem, their abusive behavior or whatever it might be, that's the only chance, is for you to actually draw the line and get out of there.
We all know a lot of stories of people who had to hit that kind of bottom, where the people that they loved stopped giving them the wrong kind of compassion and just walked out. Then sometimes that wakes a person up and they start to do what they need to do.
Pema Chodron
And if you are a Christian, I think this article is great: Narcissists Suck: Forgiveness
I have come to the conclusion after reading more about Narcissism that you can even walk away from family. I spent years calling my mother once a week and getting verbal abuse with almost each phone call. I did it up to a few days before she passed, and when she passed I thought, "No more abuse," but my two sisters took it up after she passed away. To honor a parent they have to be doing honorable things. And where does this guilt come from in which if you walk away you feel horrible? Maybe from their brainwashing? Maybe from religion?
Even Buddhism failed to show me that it was not a good idea to allow them to abuse me, and now that I have left Buddhism I see that there is a Buddhist teacher that is wise.
Here is what she said:
Pema: Idiot compassion is a great expression, which was actually coined by Trungpa Rinpoche. It refers to something we all do a lot of and call it compassion. In some ways, it's whats called enabling. It's the general tendency to give people what they want because you can't bear to see them suffering. Basically, you're not giving them what they need. You're trying to get away from your feeling of I can't bear to see them suffering. In other words, you're doing it for yourself. You're not really doing it for them.
When you get clear on this kind of thing, setting good boundaries and so forth, you know that if someone is violent, for instance, and is being violent towards you —to use that as the example— it's not the compassionate thing to keep allowing that to happen, allowing someone to keep being able to feed their violence and their aggression. So of course, they're going to freak out and be extremely upset. And it will be quite difficult for you to go through the process of actually leaving the situation. But that's the compassionate thing to do.
It's the compassionate thing to do for yourself, because you're part of that dynamic, and before you always stayed. So now you're going to do something frightening, groundless, and quite different. But it's the compassionate thing to do for yourself, rather than stay in a demeaning, destructive, abusive relationship.
And it's the most compassionate thing you can do for them too. They will certainly not thank you for it, and they will certainly not be glad. They'll go through a lot. But if there's any chance for them to wake up or start to work on their side of the problem, their abusive behavior or whatever it might be, that's the only chance, is for you to actually draw the line and get out of there.
We all know a lot of stories of people who had to hit that kind of bottom, where the people that they loved stopped giving them the wrong kind of compassion and just walked out. Then sometimes that wakes a person up and they start to do what they need to do.
Pema Chodron
And if you are a Christian, I think this article is great: Narcissists Suck: Forgiveness
Thank you, Heatherly. I had never thought of this. I have always thought of helping others as compassion rather than enabling. But what of helping the truly helpless? My foster son and a developmentally disabled boy I help? My mom's another story, I know. Would it be the motivation behind helping them? Which I can't even begin to fathom. The foster son is the grandson of an old friend and we love him, my daughter adores him, and I really worry how he would survive in the foster care system. When I think no, I won't take him, then I'm a complete mess because I worry so much about him. The disabled boy had trouble at home and we kind of took him in and he's very attached to us, but if he found a new family to love I wouldn't miss him horribly. I am fond of him, but don't particularly want to have as much responsibility for him as we do. On the other hand, he is like an 8 year old. But when people tell me I have a big heart for helping them, I feel like a complete fraud. It's like I help them because I don't know how not to help them. But I am a loner because I guess I can't fathom a relationship in which I won't get the life sucked out of me, so I've just stopped forming friendships. It only just came to me reading your post that that's why. I thought there was something so horribly flawed in me, that I was so incapable of making friends, I must have the worst personality on the entire planet. But it's because I meet a person, like them, they often seem to like me, and then I back away because I know I'm going to feel like I have to give too much like I always have with my mom. Thank you for helping me see that.
Think of it this way... If you are helping someone grow and helping someone develop (from child to adult) it's more likely you are helping, not enabling. If you are helping someone that you don't think you can physically/mentally/financially/emotionally handle, then you might be making a poor choice for yourself. When you stretch yourself beyond your capacity, you will end up feeling resentful and tired and exhausted, and end up feeling frustrated. The person you are trying to look after might be grateful, but at what cost? Or worse, you won't be able to help them in the end because you exhausted yourself, and won't be able to help the other person properly anyway, and possibly other folks (like your biological children, spouse, etc) might end up being neglected. Just some things to consider, if you haven't already.
What I do when a hard choice comes along, I will think to myself, "What will happen if I was never in the picture?" Because if they didn't know I existed, they would find some other means of dealing with a situation.
There is a fine line of course. For example if a mother neglected her daughter then it is possible that neglected daughter may swing all the way to the opposite of that which is to be a helicopter/controlling parent to her own children. Or if a mother was constantly controlling and always present, the child she raised could try to be the complete opposite and end up neglecting her own children. Not saying it happens as a rule, but it's possible, and that's why it's good, if a person is insecure about their parenting (or any relationship, for that matter) to take some parenting courses or possibly see a therapist or do some family counseling. Reading material works, too, of course.
Of course, kids don't come with manuals, so if you didn't have a good childhood, it's tough to compare or take notes on how to be a good parent (when you didn't have a good example), other than a little trial and error.
I took therapy and it's opened up a lot of my mind to what I was missing and what I have open to me. I still have some issues saying "No" but I am getting better at it. For instance, a co-worker of mine (who I believe has some boundary issues) was hinting that he would need a lift to drop off his vehicle in my end of town. Normally I would start wondering, oh, well, I wonder how I can help him? I would go through a bunch of scenarios and even go so far as to find other co-workers to help him. But we aren't even close family friends. It was annoying to me that my husband used to teach his son guitar lessons, and sometimes without even asking, they would bring their two dogs (and they would get our dog all excited and harder to control) and sometimes my co-worker would even bring over his wife. So it would be a crowd in our little house with no basement. My husband would be worrying our dog and theirs would be running into guitars and cases, and would be distracted by me and my co-worker's wife talking. None of my husband's other guitar students would DREAM of doing something like that! I finally had my husband tell my co-worker that. It's fine now! lol
What I do when a hard choice comes along, I will think to myself, "What will happen if I was never in the picture?" Because if they didn't know I existed, they would find some other means of dealing with a situation.
There is a fine line of course. For example if a mother neglected her daughter then it is possible that neglected daughter may swing all the way to the opposite of that which is to be a helicopter/controlling parent to her own children. Or if a mother was constantly controlling and always present, the child she raised could try to be the complete opposite and end up neglecting her own children. Not saying it happens as a rule, but it's possible, and that's why it's good, if a person is insecure about their parenting (or any relationship, for that matter) to take some parenting courses or possibly see a therapist or do some family counseling. Reading material works, too, of course.
Of course, kids don't come with manuals, so if you didn't have a good childhood, it's tough to compare or take notes on how to be a good parent (when you didn't have a good example), other than a little trial and error.
I took therapy and it's opened up a lot of my mind to what I was missing and what I have open to me. I still have some issues saying "No" but I am getting better at it. For instance, a co-worker of mine (who I believe has some boundary issues) was hinting that he would need a lift to drop off his vehicle in my end of town. Normally I would start wondering, oh, well, I wonder how I can help him? I would go through a bunch of scenarios and even go so far as to find other co-workers to help him. But we aren't even close family friends. It was annoying to me that my husband used to teach his son guitar lessons, and sometimes without even asking, they would bring their two dogs (and they would get our dog all excited and harder to control) and sometimes my co-worker would even bring over his wife. So it would be a crowd in our little house with no basement. My husband would be worrying our dog and theirs would be running into guitars and cases, and would be distracted by me and my co-worker's wife talking. None of my husband's other guitar students would DREAM of doing something like that! I finally had my husband tell my co-worker that. It's fine now! lol
It is good to have compassion towards others, to even help them. I am a great fan of Mother Teresa. Idiot Compassion is when you forgive someone for hurting you without their asking for forgiveness and even changing how they treat you and then allowing them to remain in your life to continue to do you harm.
Glad I can help, but give yourself some credit, too for coming here in the first place and for taking actions that will help you. You know you aren't a Narcissistic person if you are taking steps like you are... 8D
lol It's all good now. One of my problems is I tolerate too much because I'm so used to tolerating crap from people. That situation actually helped me grow, because I worked with my husband on it and together we both stood up for ourselves.
That's so true. And the weird thing is I couldn't tell with my mother if she was actually trying to help, or if she was just keen on interfering. Part of the reason I stopped talking to her was because we used to think, "Her heart's in the right place, but her nose isn't." But then it started to be more like, "She seems to intend to interfere making it seem like she's trying to do good and being misunderstood so she can cry and fuss and bring attention to herself and claim to be a martyr." So then you wonder, if this is intentional, then where's her heart? Does she even have one?
How do you do that cutting and pasting thing? jollygreenjellybean, you say, "You know you aren't a Narcissistic person if you are taking steps like you are." But I worry about it ALL the time. Like, that's my main motivator, it seems. "I have to do this for that person or else I am narcissistic." Not that I don't do nice things for people from the heart, but I'm constantly second-guessing myself. I know I'm not alone in this from reading all these posts, but I'm suddenly getting my eyes opened. I really have felt so alien for so long. I really do appreciate this forum because, wow, it's like I'm not crazy any more.
"I tolerate too much because I'm so used to tolerating crap from people" I can think of some crazy situations I've been in, too. How did you learn to stand up for yourself? I hope you give yourself a lot of credit for that. It must be a really hard thing to do. I find I've just sort of cut myself off from people because I don't want to deal with it, nor know how not to. Though I didn't realize til yesterday that's what I was doing.
"I tolerate too much because I'm so used to tolerating crap from people" I can think of some crazy situations I've been in, too. How did you learn to stand up for yourself? I hope you give yourself a lot of credit for that. It must be a really hard thing to do. I find I've just sort of cut myself off from people because I don't want to deal with it, nor know how not to. Though I didn't realize til yesterday that's what I was doing.
Hey je9je9....
To quote someone, you can copy what they say in their previous message... Paste it into your reply... Then highlight what you want to be quoted and look for the "speech bubble" icon... Select that and it will encompass what you have selected as a quote... Or if you want, you can just use html language... So at the start of your quote you would use square brackets around the word QUOTE and at the end of your quote you would type in square brackets /QUOTE ... This is the same thing you do when you select the icon, only it wraps it all at once like a shortcut for you so you don't have to do it. If you put those square brackets around things, it normally doesn't show what's in between them... Such is the way html language works.... 8D
I found that doing relaxation breathing and telling myself POSITIVE things and also dispelling negative things helps immensely, because after being raised to believe you're worthless, it's tough to recover on your own... I felt so bad but I needed to face not speaking to my parents, and I would repeat, "I am doing this to protect myself." "I am a good person." "I will not tolerate mistreatment and abuse." "I will embrace good behaviour and actions." "I deserve to be treated with respect."
You keep hearing that "mean mom" voice in the back of your head telling you "What the hell is your problem? Are you stupid?" "Your sister/brother/cousin/aunt/neighbour/father is so much better than you!" "What do you think you're doing? You can't handle that!" and you have to turn it around and be mindful of it... "I don't have the problem, my mother did!" "I am not an idiot, I am free of you, so I have the chance now to learn things on my own." "No one should compare another. I am only in competition with myself." "I can learn to adapt." Things like that. You have to pick up on your "Self-Talk" and start mothering yourself the way you should have been mothered in the first place.
It's also amazing that your therapist can see things you never could from a different perspective. That's the beauty of therapy, too. I told my therapist about the time my parents took us children to the jail/correctional centre because my mom and dad did lay ministry (providing a service and host for communion as lay people where people cannot go to church, like in old age care homes, for example)... My therapist was shocked that my parents would even think of taking their children to a jail and being amongst convicts... I wasn't even thinking of that. I thought the big deal was that my mom and dad let me sit on a pedophile's lap, and took a picture. Then on the way home my mom asked me about him, and I said he made me feel very uncomfortable (sweaty and paying a lot of attention to me), and then she said he was a pedophile and proceeded to tell me exactly what a pedophile does. Left me wondering why the hell she let me sit on his lap and hold his hand during prayer circle. Bleah. And years later they still have that horrid picture of him and even though I have asked to destroy it several times throughout the years my mom keeps saying, "But you were so pretty then and we don't have any other photos of you at that age." lol Insane, eh?
But yes, my therapist rightly pointed out, why the hell did she take me and my younger brothers to JAIL??? Talk about bad parental judgement!
I kind of swung the other way for a while. I don't trust a lot of people, so I kind of isolated myself for about a year. However during that year I learned a lot about myself and others. I was very happy to learn, for instance, that several relatives on my dad's side know exactly what type of person my mother is, and they also feel bad for my dad but are also mystified why he lets my mom push him around and allows her/enables her abuse on his family (she is very jealous of my dad and very threatened if he loves someone else).
I am slowly, veeery slowly, not jumping into new relationships but just putting my feelers out there, as it were. I have also learned better to respect other people's boundaries (at work, for example, I should just keep the status as "co-worker" and not reveal a bunch of personal stuff to them, because everyone has their own personal stuff to deal with, so why would they want to deal with someone else's personal stuff at work, of all places?)...
Anyway, like I said, it's a process. You never stop learning. I sure enjoy learning, and I sure like to educate myself like you are, checking out forums and links and books. I'm back in therapy for a bit, trying to get at why I still have the occasional panic and anxiety... I think I am more at peace now with the No Contact with my parents... It's more to do with my mom's relatives. One of my mom's sisters was a raging alcoholic (still is) with several men/partners/husbands who did unspeakable things to and in front of her own children. As a result one of my older cousins molested me and at least one other cousin that I know of. So I am dealing with that sort of thing right now... It's going to be tough going, but I think it's high time I purged as much as I could out of my system about that. I am taking a week off in Feb so I'm not stressed out at work.
To quote someone, you can copy what they say in their previous message... Paste it into your reply... Then highlight what you want to be quoted and look for the "speech bubble" icon... Select that and it will encompass what you have selected as a quote... Or if you want, you can just use html language... So at the start of your quote you would use square brackets around the word QUOTE and at the end of your quote you would type in square brackets /QUOTE ... This is the same thing you do when you select the icon, only it wraps it all at once like a shortcut for you so you don't have to do it. If you put those square brackets around things, it normally doesn't show what's in between them... Such is the way html language works.... 8D
Hopefully, you mentioned you were going to therapy, so you could always mention this to your therapist. He or she can tell you how to gain some of your self-confidence back. Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) is what my therapist gave me -- meditation is one thing that helped.
I found that doing relaxation breathing and telling myself POSITIVE things and also dispelling negative things helps immensely, because after being raised to believe you're worthless, it's tough to recover on your own... I felt so bad but I needed to face not speaking to my parents, and I would repeat, "I am doing this to protect myself." "I am a good person." "I will not tolerate mistreatment and abuse." "I will embrace good behaviour and actions." "I deserve to be treated with respect."
You keep hearing that "mean mom" voice in the back of your head telling you "What the hell is your problem? Are you stupid?" "Your sister/brother/cousin/aunt/neighbour/father is so much better than you!" "What do you think you're doing? You can't handle that!" and you have to turn it around and be mindful of it... "I don't have the problem, my mother did!" "I am not an idiot, I am free of you, so I have the chance now to learn things on my own." "No one should compare another. I am only in competition with myself." "I can learn to adapt." Things like that. You have to pick up on your "Self-Talk" and start mothering yourself the way you should have been mothered in the first place.
It's also amazing that your therapist can see things you never could from a different perspective. That's the beauty of therapy, too. I told my therapist about the time my parents took us children to the jail/correctional centre because my mom and dad did lay ministry (providing a service and host for communion as lay people where people cannot go to church, like in old age care homes, for example)... My therapist was shocked that my parents would even think of taking their children to a jail and being amongst convicts... I wasn't even thinking of that. I thought the big deal was that my mom and dad let me sit on a pedophile's lap, and took a picture. Then on the way home my mom asked me about him, and I said he made me feel very uncomfortable (sweaty and paying a lot of attention to me), and then she said he was a pedophile and proceeded to tell me exactly what a pedophile does. Left me wondering why the hell she let me sit on his lap and hold his hand during prayer circle. Bleah. And years later they still have that horrid picture of him and even though I have asked to destroy it several times throughout the years my mom keeps saying, "But you were so pretty then and we don't have any other photos of you at that age." lol Insane, eh?
But yes, my therapist rightly pointed out, why the hell did she take me and my younger brothers to JAIL??? Talk about bad parental judgement!
Hm, it's still an ongoing learning process. I ended up stopping some friendships that, after/during therapy, I figured out they were just as unhealthy to certain degrees as my relationship with my mom. I would put up with them bossing me around, taking their abuse, getting manipulated... For example a "friend" who called up my husband and "made" him agree to have a party at our house... Inviting herself and others to OUR house??? I got home from work that day and did NOT feel like having a party at ALL! So I fumed about it, and actually played with the idea of humouring her and letting the party commence. But I ended up saying, "No Way." Better later than never, I guess. I was so stunned that she would try to pull something like that. After a few other examples of that behaviour, it was much easier for me to recognize what she was doing. I eventually stopped talking to her. Good riddance I say.
I kind of swung the other way for a while. I don't trust a lot of people, so I kind of isolated myself for about a year. However during that year I learned a lot about myself and others. I was very happy to learn, for instance, that several relatives on my dad's side know exactly what type of person my mother is, and they also feel bad for my dad but are also mystified why he lets my mom push him around and allows her/enables her abuse on his family (she is very jealous of my dad and very threatened if he loves someone else).
I am slowly, veeery slowly, not jumping into new relationships but just putting my feelers out there, as it were. I have also learned better to respect other people's boundaries (at work, for example, I should just keep the status as "co-worker" and not reveal a bunch of personal stuff to them, because everyone has their own personal stuff to deal with, so why would they want to deal with someone else's personal stuff at work, of all places?)...
Anyway, like I said, it's a process. You never stop learning. I sure enjoy learning, and I sure like to educate myself like you are, checking out forums and links and books. I'm back in therapy for a bit, trying to get at why I still have the occasional panic and anxiety... I think I am more at peace now with the No Contact with my parents... It's more to do with my mom's relatives. One of my mom's sisters was a raging alcoholic (still is) with several men/partners/husbands who did unspeakable things to and in front of her own children. As a result one of my older cousins molested me and at least one other cousin that I know of. So I am dealing with that sort of thing right now... It's going to be tough going, but I think it's high time I purged as much as I could out of my system about that. I am taking a week off in Feb so I'm not stressed out at work.
I did something similar Jolly to get over severe depression of 12 years, but I did not do breathing exercises. I used a mantra that I made up myself, a positive affirmation, and I repeated silently over and over all day long using one affirmation for one problem I had, and by the end of the day that problem was solved. Within weeks my depression was gone and never returned. It was like yours.
I am doing it now in regards to my sister, saying, "It will all work out for the best." and it works. First, many years ago I had read that "it is your thoughts that depress you," and so I looked at my thoughts and they were all depressing. I took one at a time and changed it to a positive and used it as a silent mantra all day. Whenever I went back to that subject in a negative way, I remembered my mantra and repeated it again. It is easy to lose the mantra, but you just go back to it. I did this at work the first day I tired it, and like I said, by the end of the day I was over that one problem. Then you go on to the next one and if it takes several days, keep it up.
We all have a little narcissism in us. You don't have to worry about doing things so no one will think you are narcisstic. People don't think that way anyway. Just do what you want to do. Hey, I wish I could be like Mother Teresa was, but I can't even make myself work at a Food Care place, much else. I just try to be nice to people when I can, and I don't kick myself for not living up to my ideal (Mother Teresa) or for not doing more. And don't think that maybe you are narcisstic. Just try to have compassion for whoever you are. I know in my younger years I was very narcisstic because I wanted to be the center of attention, etc. I am 70 (almost) now and still dealing with family, but I don't need to be the center of attention, nor do I have to look like a model anymore. Heaven help me though if I won the lotto.
Wow! Jolly. Took you to jail and so on. All my parents did is let me play in their bar and sit on their men friends laps, but nothing was weird like that.
je9, just do things from the heart and not because you think you should.
How do you learn to stand up for yourself? That is a big one. I used to stand up to my mom all the time, but I would blow up, pack my clothes and leave. My sister (who I am not speaking with) used to tell me that I was the "leaver", as if that were bad. I didn't know how to not blow up and leave. Was that a bad thing? Don't know.
I had a Buddhist teacher tell me to walk away from people when they are harmful. I felt, shouldn't we say something? But when I would tell someone that they hurt my feelings it would backfire with them telling me that I was too sensitive and then telling me how wrong I was and not in a nice way. I am still debating the "walk away without saying anything," (This was told me me last summer). And when I left that teacher, I told him what I thought, so I didn't learn much from him. He, in turn, didn't respond. But walking away is best I guess. I had a friend that hurt my feelings, and when I told her she dumped on me, and so I told her everything bad about herself. This wasn't good. When she dumped on me I should have walked away because now she has talkeda about me to everyone I know, but one of those women became my friend and is trying to be nice to her so she won't talk about her. She did anyway.
So what I am saying is this, if a friend hurts your feelings and you confront them and they get mean back, then walk away, they are not your friend. When I look at the friends who have stayed with me for years and years, they have never hurt my feelings.
I like how Obama did with the woman that put her finger in his face; he walked away. Perhaps we don't have to stand up for ourselves; maybe we only have to walk away, and by doing so we save ourselves a lot of hurt.
Some times we draw in friends like our mom, and that woman that I quit being friends with was just like her. But other times we draw in great people, and it is those we keep.
I agree about not dealing with personal stuff with others because if the friend isn't really a good friend they can use it against you. I don't worry about my old friends.
Thanks heatherly!
I don't have any "old" friends. I have former friends right now... I am a bit wary of them.
For example, I told a couple of friends of mine (who we visited fairly regularly previous to this) about some of the things my mother did (including the info about the pedophile in our family) and for some reason they stopped calling me up and wanting to hang out with me.
It seemed odd that since my former co-worker/girlfriend (we don't work at the same place anymore) had her eye on this male friend of mine ever since she met him, she would call me and email me and bug me at work and try to get me to ask him things, and I did my best not to interfere (partially because I knew he didn't really have his head in the right place at the time)... She and I used to hang out a lot, and then they got married to each other and visits kind of slowed down considerably (although I am aware this is a normal thing that happens for a while with newly weds, all nesting and such! lol)... But we'd still visit, I am fairly certain, up to the point where I talked to them about that.
Now it's only my male friend who calls occasionally to go out or visit with my husband (and if I happen to be around of course, I'll chat a bit, after all I know him from 20 years ago at university)... He's married to my former co-worker/friend who is 10 years his senior, and she's once-divorced. From her side of things, her 1st husband just got more and more distant and ended up breaking things off in some kind of mystifying manner where he held some of her belongings hostage for some reason... Strange that she married a person like that if her own father is a retired psychologist and her mom was a nurse. So all I am saying is, it might have been a little bit her, too, because she is pretty artful at controlling conversation.
You will call her up and ask her if she and her husband would like to go to a movie, and she'll say "interesting" and "I'll run that past (her husband)." And we won't hear from them for a week... But if we called them up and he (my male friend/her husband) answered, and asked him to do something, then it was "Sure thing!" And somehow plans would get set and we'd do something.
Sometimes he'd be all enthused about doing something but then a couple days before the planned event (movie or supper or whatever) he'd call back and say, "sorry, it turns out plans changed... (usually because his wife's plans changed)" or the day of the event, "Oh, sorry, (his wife) is having one of her migraines." So after a while we stopped calling, figuring if they really wanted to hang out they'd call.
And my male friend still does, but even HE has boundary issues. My husband has vented to him a couple of times about minor minor things about a couple of our mutual friends or acquaintances, and then (my male friend) will open his big mouth and cause a persnickety discussion or reaction from the other people when it wasn't even serious... For instance a mutual female friend of ours kept asking my husband to do things for her on his account on ebay. She got mad at him for not telling her anything directly and hearing it through my male friend. I mean, why would you do that if you were told to keep it to yourself? Do you LIKE to cause drama? So my husband has lost a lot of trust in this so-called friend of his, but he still occasionally hangs out, just doesn't vent or go into detail about certain things around him. Not sure if that is a real friend, but maybe he will earn back some trust.
So I have a very few female friends who are actually going through similar things to me (mother issues) and have been calling them (we do a three-way conference call once in a while because one of them has free Long Distance to the USA and Canada)... And I am friends with one or two guys who are mostly friends with my husband. And I have some friends who live in a Manitoba that we seldom visit, simply because we don't have any relatives out that way (they are all west of Saskatchewan, except perhaps a small smattering of relatives in Ontario)....
Sorry I went off on a tangent there... I agree that sometimes it's good to walk away. Especially when you have someone who is threatened so much by the truth. They will react so ridiculously over the top that you might get hurt on the way out.
Got this from a FB group for DONM (Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers) and she got it from Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers
I don't have any "old" friends. I have former friends right now... I am a bit wary of them.
For example, I told a couple of friends of mine (who we visited fairly regularly previous to this) about some of the things my mother did (including the info about the pedophile in our family) and for some reason they stopped calling me up and wanting to hang out with me.
It seemed odd that since my former co-worker/girlfriend (we don't work at the same place anymore) had her eye on this male friend of mine ever since she met him, she would call me and email me and bug me at work and try to get me to ask him things, and I did my best not to interfere (partially because I knew he didn't really have his head in the right place at the time)... She and I used to hang out a lot, and then they got married to each other and visits kind of slowed down considerably (although I am aware this is a normal thing that happens for a while with newly weds, all nesting and such! lol)... But we'd still visit, I am fairly certain, up to the point where I talked to them about that.
Now it's only my male friend who calls occasionally to go out or visit with my husband (and if I happen to be around of course, I'll chat a bit, after all I know him from 20 years ago at university)... He's married to my former co-worker/friend who is 10 years his senior, and she's once-divorced. From her side of things, her 1st husband just got more and more distant and ended up breaking things off in some kind of mystifying manner where he held some of her belongings hostage for some reason... Strange that she married a person like that if her own father is a retired psychologist and her mom was a nurse. So all I am saying is, it might have been a little bit her, too, because she is pretty artful at controlling conversation.
You will call her up and ask her if she and her husband would like to go to a movie, and she'll say "interesting" and "I'll run that past (her husband)." And we won't hear from them for a week... But if we called them up and he (my male friend/her husband) answered, and asked him to do something, then it was "Sure thing!" And somehow plans would get set and we'd do something.
Sometimes he'd be all enthused about doing something but then a couple days before the planned event (movie or supper or whatever) he'd call back and say, "sorry, it turns out plans changed... (usually because his wife's plans changed)" or the day of the event, "Oh, sorry, (his wife) is having one of her migraines." So after a while we stopped calling, figuring if they really wanted to hang out they'd call.
And my male friend still does, but even HE has boundary issues. My husband has vented to him a couple of times about minor minor things about a couple of our mutual friends or acquaintances, and then (my male friend) will open his big mouth and cause a persnickety discussion or reaction from the other people when it wasn't even serious... For instance a mutual female friend of ours kept asking my husband to do things for her on his account on ebay. She got mad at him for not telling her anything directly and hearing it through my male friend. I mean, why would you do that if you were told to keep it to yourself? Do you LIKE to cause drama? So my husband has lost a lot of trust in this so-called friend of his, but he still occasionally hangs out, just doesn't vent or go into detail about certain things around him. Not sure if that is a real friend, but maybe he will earn back some trust.
So I have a very few female friends who are actually going through similar things to me (mother issues) and have been calling them (we do a three-way conference call once in a while because one of them has free Long Distance to the USA and Canada)... And I am friends with one or two guys who are mostly friends with my husband. And I have some friends who live in a Manitoba that we seldom visit, simply because we don't have any relatives out that way (they are all west of Saskatchewan, except perhaps a small smattering of relatives in Ontario)....
Sorry I went off on a tangent there... I agree that sometimes it's good to walk away. Especially when you have someone who is threatened so much by the truth. They will react so ridiculously over the top that you might get hurt on the way out.
Got this from a FB group for DONM (Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers) and she got it from Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers
Thanks, Jolly, for the cut and paste info. I will try it
And thanks, Heatherly and Jolly for answering me.
Heatherly, you wrote
And thanks, Heatherly and Jolly for answering me.
Heatherly, you wrote
I don't worry about other people thinking I'm narcissistic. I worry about me not knowing if I'm narcissistic. Like I don't have some inner barometer to go by. I guess I assume other people just say, "Sure I'll give you a ride to the store," because they have appropriate boundaries. Whereas if, for example, my elderly aunt needs a ride to the store, I automatically say I'll do it because I love her and because I generally am quick to offer to do that sort of thing. Then afterwards I kind of regret it because I'm kind of a hermit and it's a pain to deal with her walker and I know when the day comes to take her I won't want to leave the house so I start thinking it's kind of narcissistic to regret a once-in-a-while help of an old aunt who would have given me a ride when I was young. But writing that I realize that it's more about that negative self-talk and my not liking to go out than about narcissism. And yes, I am going to start therapy soon. Called to make an appointment yesterday. I've been in therapy and have actually had some horrendous experiences so am hoping this is better. I've known for some time that I need it, but am a little gun-shy."
Wow! That's an amazing story! Horrible what NM can justify in their own minds.
It's a great defense for someone who's not nice. I was always too sensitive. I rarely spoke up to my mom, but at 15 I asked her how she thought it made me feel when she called me fat-head all the time. Well, I was just too sensitive!
I've quit all but one toxic friendship and she is almost gone. She lives out of town and I never call her. I rarely answer her either. She is ten times more narcissistic than my mom. I have always felt very sorry for her. I am her only friend and I can't stand her. She was always really nice to my kids which is how she won me over. I do have some special friends, though.
I agree with that wholeheartedly. I guess I'm erratic on this one. I've walked away from a lot of lousy acquaintanceships because I attract needy people, but I'm quick to think "Oh no, not again." But I'm a lousy judge of what is healthy. I used to think I gave off a vibe because no matter where I was people found me. People talked to me in grocery stores, on busses, at amusement parks. I know more life stories than a person should know. But then I realized it's because I always felt like if a person in an aisle was talking out loud it was my responsibility to respond. Now, I'm really sorry if someone's lonely enough to be muttering in the pickle aisle, but I have my needs too and listening to a complete stranger wax poetic for half an hour about every detail of her menopausal mishaps made me rethink my strategy. My relationship with my mom was my most toxic. I'm not sure about my relationship with my husband. I have not always been easy to live with myself. I think he may have Asperger's Syndrome. He's not exactly tuned in to emotions. He's not mean at all, he's just completely oblivious to an emotional life. As Hermione about Ron in Harry Potter: "He has the emotional range of a teaspoon."
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