My ongoing therapy dilemma

[David Baxter PhD]

How do you know they wouldn't be interesting?

You have interesting conversations here. For example, the ones about geckos, magpies, etc.

 

[gooblax]

They just wouldn't be. I don't have any topics that I'm sufficiently interested in to have accumulated enough knowledge to be able to talk about them in a conversation, and I'm rubbish at coming up with questions to ask about topics that other people raise.

Magpies and geckos are like 5mins of filler convo at the max. And writing is different to talking.

 

[Daniel E.]

Yeah, but...Most people talk about the most basic things like weather, TV, family happenings, celebrity gossip, etc. Practically no knowledge required and you can keep the conversation going with things like "Really? S/he/that is great/horrible/amazing. Did you see the Grammy's/the news last night? I would have but was too busy looking at memes of cats."

For me, it really was just a matter of practice and mostly feeling comfortable enough to be myself. And taking the advice of Albert Ellis, e.g. if someone doesn't find your conversations interesting, there almost 8 billion remaining and some of them will.

And now you can ask the Google Assistant for info even during your conversations with others

 

[Daniel E.]

Ellis on overgeneralizing, catastrophizing, etc:

Albert Ellis and Gloria - Counselling (1965) Full Session - Rational Emotive Therapy - YouTube

(He is pressed for time and admitted later that was not a typical therapy session since he normally would just focus on just one or two things.)

 

[gooblax]

Yeah, but...Most people talk about the most basic things like weather, TV, family happenings, celebrity gossip, etc. Practically no knowledge required and you can keep the conversation going with things like "Really? S/he/that is great/horrible/amazing. Did you see the Grammy's/the news last night? I would have but was too busy looking at memes of cats."

That would be fine, however then I'm back at the problem of 'getting through' a boring conversation. I've been practicing boring conversations (and maybe slightly less boring ones) with someone on the bus, who I mostly avoid so I only have to see him once or twice a week... because the conversations are still anxiety provoking since I have nothing to say/ask (but at least only trying to talk once/twice a week I can save up a few things rather than exhausting all possible topics). But I don't know what topic would actually make it a conversation that I could actually enjoy vs tolerate/endure. If I can't think of a conversation that I would find interesting, then it will remain something to be endured.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

I always hated small talk (and still do to a somewhat lesser extent) but at a point in my career it became necessary to conscript front line workers to get behind some new clinical programs I was spearheading. As the new guy on the block, I needed to let them know I valued what they would be contributing and that I wasn’t just issuing pie-in-the-sky orders to those who would actually do the work. And I knew if I didn’t succeed at that, the programs would fail.

So I had to learn how to “do” small talk and I was starting from a place where I didn’t know them and knew nothing about them.

Initially, this seemed overwhelming and daunting. But I adopted a strategy starting from briefly mentioning the new programs to learning more about what they did and more importantly about them personally - their interests, what they liked to do in their spare time, how they came to be where they were now.

That meant asking questions about them. Not only did I discover that doing that was actually easy - given the right questions most people love to talk about themselves - but I also discovered it was fascinating. I learned about some of their varied histories, like being a radio dj / personality all over the country to being successful entrepreneurs to all sorts of things I would never have guessed just by looking at them.

That became my strategy in other social settings as well. I got better at it as I went on, though it is still not my favorite thing to do. At least it makes certain kinds of social situations or settings feel less awkward. Actually, there’s not much that’s more awkward than dead silence while you try desperately try to think of something to say.

Just ask questions. May sound oversimplified but it works.

 

[Daniel E.]

When I was younger, I would see myself as just incompatible with 99% of the population but that's largely because I focused more on differences than similarities, especially since I didn't talk to people much. As I got older, I become more of a people person (relatively speaking) as I got more practice and my comfort level increased. As David was saying, it actually feels more awkward not to converse in some situations, so that was a prime motivator for me, like if I am already at a party or working with someone. Working as a caregiver was a great motivator since half the job sometimes is keeping people from feeling lonely.

And there are people who work with the public, e.g. some teachers, who you would think would be great at small talk but don't like to do it either until they feel comfortable with the person. And as Ellis says, feeling uncomforable/awkward is also just part of the learning process.

 

[Daniel E.]

And my favorite point made by Ellis is that a lot of the negative thinking about social situations isn't even mostly about the current/upcoming situation but generalizing that if this social situation goes bad, then it's another sign things are never going to work out (as in catastrophizing). (And he also says where there is catastrophizing, there is usually awfulizing, as in "this will always be a problem and wouldn't that be awful/horrible/intolerable.")

 

[Daniel E.]

their interests, what they liked to do in their spare time, how they came to be where they were now.

Those are also good examples of open questions. And there is also the therapist approach of using encouragers like “uh-huh”

A Not-So-Obvious Listening Skill: The Minimal Encourager

 

[gooblax]

I think I get what you're both saying, but it circles back to how I originally framed the problem:

Now if I could find it within myself to try being curious and engage properly in the conversation things might go a bit better...

I'm crap at coming up with questions, and not good at finding things interesting enough to be curious about them. I'm just defective in that department I guess.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

But that’s what I was like before circumstances made me learn how to be better at it.

It’s a skill like any other skill. We need to train ourselves to do it. Especially for introverts, it isn’t something we’re born with.

 

[Daniel E.]

How to Be Yourself: Ellen Hendriksen: 9781250122223: Amazon.com: Books

"You already have everything you need to succeed in any unfamiliar social situation."

As opposed to perfectionist rules (from the same book):

 

[Daniel E.]

And:

 

[gooblax]

I just think I'm fundamentally incapable with this. I know I could improve (and I have improved) but there will always be something wrong with me that limits things and isn't fixable. It doesn't seem like a distortion, it seems like a fact.

It's not the type of fact that can be proven or disproven, because there will always be interactions that go well or poorly - it's not about individual interactions or even a lifetime average. It's more like who I am as a person is just not correctly a proper person. Not so much a blocking wall as an open sink hole.

So I could try but it doesn't seem worth it on the scale of things. To me it seems that more benefit would come from learning to be alone with my experience. Sometimes being alone sucks but it seems it would be both easier and more beneficial to make that suck less than to try being less alone.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

One of my favorite quotes, although the original phrasing¹ was probably a bit different:

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right.” ~ Henry Ford

There's nothing wrong with learning how to be alone and to be content in being alone, how to enjoy your own company and how to not need other people to make you happy. I believe this is something everyone eventually must learn to do.

But there is a big difference between being alone and feeling lonely or isolated or alienated.

Humans have evolved as social animals and we all need a sense of belonging in a social world. That's what allows us to also be alone when we choose to be alone.

---

¹ The actual quote was probably "Whether you believe you can do a thing or not, you are right.", attributed to Henry Ford just after his death in 1947 by The Reader’s Digest.

 

[Daniel E.]

I know I could improve (and I have improved)

I think it's important to focus on that. I think life is naturally habituating -- life experience can only increase. One thing that started getting me out of my shell was my father broke his hip over ten years ago. So I had to interact with more and more people on his behalf until he was well again. And that helped lead to other changes like going back to work part-time and then eventually full-time. So the environment itself can give us a jump start (like speeding more when in a sports car).

And, of course, you have a lot going for you, like your intelligence. Most people couldn't even complete a single course in engineering if they had to, let alone work as a professional engineer.

 

[gooblax]

I want to cancel my optometrist appointment for tomorrow morning, and to not go to the two dinner/drinks for people leaving tonight. They don't make it easy to cancel the appointment so I'm not going to cancel. And it'll be worse explaining why I didn't go out so I'll have to go for awhile.

Still haven't decided what would be the best use of time to talk about with my therapist next week. I'm planning on asking how he thinks I could make better use of his skills this year. But I also had another strong urge to cancel and I guess I need to talk about that again.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Why do you want to cancel the optometrist?

 

[gooblax]

Just anxiety. I dunno where they're located with respect to the rest of the shopping centre (not hard to find out and I'll do that now while I think of it), what to do when I get there (I've found photos of the inside of the store, presumably go to one of the two desks if they're manned), or what will happen during the eye exam.

Then if I do need glasses, I'm not mentally prepared for having to choose frames. It'll be like when I go shoe shopping, in that I find it difficult to even look at the shoes in case a store person comes to "help" or I'll be looking at the 'wrong type of shoes' (I prefer most mens shoes over womens and my mum had an issue with that for years which I think is the reason I have such a hard time looking at /buying my own clothes, shoes etc). So if they recommend glasses I'll have to be like "nah I'll come back later" and bail, then make a separate trip to do it another time.

 

[Daniel E.]

You could talk loud inside the store and yell out "where's the receptionist?" as a shame-attacking exercise

What I have done in the past is buy a cheap pair of lenses for the frames I want. And if I like the frames after wearing them a while, buy another of the same but with more expensive lenses like transition lenses (that darken into sunglasses when going outside in the sun). Then use the original pair of glasses as a backup pair.

But nowadays, I mostly stick to the same types of frames, so it is pretty easy now. They also have online catalogs, apps for virtually trying on glasses, etc., but for most people, it seems it's still much easier to try them on in person.