Feeling crappy

[ThatLady]

Specifically, when I first started to fight proactively against my tendencies to just "take whatever people threw at me", I practiced with myself, often in front of a mirror. I'd practice keeping a clear, focussed topic, staying in control and not letting anger make me make mistakes, and keeping my facial expressions in the neutral range. I'd practice what I'd say to the person I was talking to, and how I would say it. I'd even try to come up with possible responses that would, in the worst situations, throw me off track and let my anger get the best of me.

Finally, my opportunity came. I was complimented at work for a job well done by a gentlemen for whom I'd done a great deal of work and exerted a great deal of effort. My boss, known to be a jackass, commented that I must have solicited the compliment. He made this comment to a co-worker of mine who didn't particularly care for me (jealousy, I realize as I reflect back). She made sure I heard that it had been said. Rather than go to her, I went directly to the boss. I went into his office, closed the door, and informed him that the next time he decided to imply that I was soliciting anything at all, he and I would be sitting in the office of the Vice-President of Human Resources. I also informed him that I didn't appreciate being accused of "whoring", whether for compliments or sexual favors, and it better not ever happen again.

This particular boss was one who had never looked me in the eye. The morning after our "encounter", he arrived in the office, came directly to my office, parked his arse on the corner of my desk and proceeded to hold a conversation. From that time on, there was never a problem between us. It was a good lesson for me, and a good lesson for him, I think.

That's one example. A similar situation occurred about a year later, when my new boss decided to lambaste me in front of others for something I'd done that had upset him. What I did, I did because it needed to be done. He had problems at home of which I was unaware, and took his frustrations out on me. I informed him, again behind the closed door of his office, that I was not a mind-reader and couldn't possibly know he was having a bad day, so I'd appreciate it if he kept them to himself from that time forward. We got along famously after that.

These days, I guess I put out an aura of confidence that makes people hesitate to take me on. It's all a matter of practicing how you put yourself out there. If you can perfect the technique of friendly but not willing to take any hogwash, it's amazing how things around you change.

 

[RBM]

WOW! :shocked:

I was expecting something small, your example took some major league guts. Impressive.

For me standing up to people presents 3 major sort of difficulties.

1. Figuring out what has happened and what the appropriate response should be - This part I really just don't get. It's my nature to be very considerate of other people feelings and expect them to treat me the same. Not only is this my nature it's also my desire. But my experience is that the world isn't like that. So I'm always fighting my nature and desire with this, on top of the fact that I just plain don't understand the type of social interaction that people use.

2. The courage to carry out the confrontation once I know how I will handle it - This is definitly the step I've made the most progress with. I still have a long way to go but this is no doubt one of the most incredible acheivements in my life. I could see practicing the way I conduct myself possibly helping for this.

3. Dealing with the aftermath - The all encompassing worrying about what people think of me or will do to me after I have stood up to them, and the hurt of the disapproving things that they have said to me. I can't really explain how big of an impact this has on me, it's basically who I am and it runs my life.

If I could ever get rid of 3, or just get it down to normal levels I would change so much people that have known me my whole life would be shocked at how different of a person I would be.

Anyway thanks for the example, it's nice to hear about what has helped others with their problems.

 

[ThatLady]

Addressing item three: You are not what people think of you. You are who you are. Most of the time, people who are rude are just bullies. In reality, they have no self-confidence so they try to bully their way through your defenses. Their motto: The best defense is a good offense. They're downright offensive!

Once you've practiced enough, you learn to confront people in an assertive manner, rather than an aggressive manner. That changes the balance in your favor. If you're angry and aggressive, you're much more likely to make mistakes. If you're calm and assertive, the ball remains in your court. No matter what they say, they are greeted with a slight smile and a logical retort. They don't get the angry outbursts they're trying to provoke.

I try to be a considerate, kind, and thoughtful person myself. With the vast majority of people this approach works very well. They feel comfortable in your presence and free to discuss whatever they feel needs discussing. You'll always be confronted with those, however, who don't fit that picture. They're looking for a fight, or a negative reaction, and they'll do whatever they can to provoke one. I really think that, with some practice, you can learn to combat these people with assertive, calm logic. It's something they're not ready for. They're caught off-guard, putting you in the driver's seat.

You've got all the parts in place, hon. I really believe that practice will help you. Congratulations on the work you've done to break your problem down into workable steps.

 

[RBM]

The thing is I have practiced and have and do approach people assertively which is what happened in this topic and I get lambasted for it. I hit roadblocks because I don't related properly to people and I get hurt so easily and it ends up causing divisions. But you need successes and I'm just not getting them.

And the thing is too, people are many shades of grey often. Some times people are nice sometimes not. And I don't see many people that take abuse without dishing it right back. Why should I be the one to absorb it. The stronger people should be doing that. As someone I know says, you can't get blood from a stone.

I am putting in a lot of effort but the results just haven't been going my way. I'm weird because I am very logical in some way yet very emotional in others.

I'm thinking about going to a therapist again. I know I need help but I'm just so worried about being put in the hospital. Hopefully I get one that is smart enough to realise that putting me in a hospital is terrible and stupid and would agree to never put me in one. I could just never reveal if I was suicidal, but I hate the fact that I'd have to cover something up, I think it might impeed progress. I've been thinking about this for months, it's a really hard decision for me.

My post seems really scatterbrained but sometimes I just have to post this way, if I don't I end up speeding to much time trying to make it perfect.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

I have practiced and have and do approach people assertively which is what happened in this topic and I get lambasted for it... I don't see many people that take abuse without dishing it right back. Why should I be the one to absorb it. The stronger people should be doing that.

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[Peanut]

Hey RBM--How's it going? It sounds like maybe a little better (hopefully)!?

And the thing is too, people are many shades of grey often. Some times people are nice sometimes not.

That is a really good point. A lot of times I have trouble remembering that. I typically always see things as extremely black or extremely white with no middle ground whatsoever. I am now really trying to keep that in mind so I stop "condemning" people, you know? I think also if you are less hard on other people you (or at least I did) find that you're not so hard on yourself. You don't have to hold yourself up to the high standards anymore because you lowered them for everyone and let people be free to be people and screw up. By the way I'm not talking just about you here, but in general and it's just what I've found personally.

And I don't see many people that take abuse without dishing it right back.

I see a lot of people take abuse without dishing it back. Sometimes it is hard to watch happen, especially if it is a friend...but I think that people have their own ways of coping. Some people dish it back and some people don't and like you were saying, sometimes people do both (shades of grey). But you know, just because you don't dish it back, that doesn't mean that you have to take it. My therapist was talking to me about assertiveness, and he was telling me that you can carry yourself in such a way where...nevermind I guess I don't remember what he told me :blank: Anyway, under certain circumstances I have the assertiveness problem too. If you figure out how to deal with it, let me know because clearly I don't remember

I'm weird because I am very logical in some way yet very emotional in others.

Sounds like a shade of grey!

I'm thinking about going to a therapist again. I know I need help but I'm just so worried about being put in the hospital. Hopefully I get one that is smart enough to realise that putting me in a hospital is terrible and stupid and would agree to never put me in one. I could just never reveal if I was suicidal, but I hate the fact that I'd have to cover something up, I think it might impeed progress. I've been thinking about this for months, it's a really hard decision for me.

Good for you!! I agree--partially honest therapy is better than no therapy at all. You know what will get you put in the hospital. You know something kind of freaked me out when I went to therapy yesterday...I was talking to the therapist about how I was very stressed out, etc and I used the term "crash and burn" and let me just give you a heads up to avoid that term. Then I got the "are you thinking about hurting yourself?" questions, like he really thought I was going to literally crash my car and burn up in it or something :roll: It was very strange and it freaked me out and I'm thinking about not going back now because of it.

Anyway, sorry to talk about myself so much...your posts just got me thinking a lot I guess. Mainly I just wanted to say that although I don't have much in the way of good advice that I am reading what you're writing and I'm glad that you're coming back. I think it's really nice that thatlady has dealt with similar issues so she is probably a really good resource for you.

 

[ThatLady]

I, too, have seen many people who APPEAR to be taking abuse and not dishing it back. However, sometimes it's not what it appears. Sometimes, these people are simply treating the abuse as it deserves to be treated...with studied disdain. I've used that method myself, at times. You'd be amazed how well it works.

 

[Lost]

<<The way I go about it is I almost always let other people get their way and I think, well since I've been so considerate to them they will show me it back on this rare occasion I really want something my way. But it never seems to work out that way.>>

RBM, you wrote the above, and I've been meaning to respond to that post. Now that so many others are offering so many great suggestions here I don't want to distract too much, so I just want to comment on that quote of yours.

I have a very close friend who always lets others get their way hoping the same thing as you. The problem with doing that is, if you just let people have their way the whole time, they get used it, and they may not even realise that you are sacrificing so much, and giving in so much. I have to confess, that even I took a lot of what my friend did for granted - not because I was trying to be nasty or to abuse her... It's just that when someone behaves in a certain way for a long time, you just get used to it, and you get to expect it.

So maybe, when you're giving in to people, and constantly letting them have their way, they're not even realising that you're giving in. Maybe they think you don't mind, or you don't care. Even if they do, because they're used to doing what they want when they want, even KNOWING that you're not happy with something, they could just go ahead with it. Because they know that you'll just take it. So even though it's not the nicest of behaviour for them, they're probably not giving it that muchthought, and just getting on with life.

But if you would make them stop and think, you could maybe try to balance things out more. Even were you to say "You should know actually, that I really feel that x y and z should happen, not what you think. But I'm prepared to let you have your way, and see what happens." So by saying that you're letting them know that you want something else, but you're letting them have their way, and you're bringing that to their attention.

Of course, the ultimate is for you to be able to be fully assertive (eg "No, I don't think that we should do what you suggested. I think that doing x y and z is better in this situation, since ... etc") But I also find being assertive-but-not-aggressive hard, so at least this would be step in the right direction I think.

 

[RBM]

I have practiced and have and do approach people assertively which is what happened in this topic and I get lambasted for it... I don't see many people that take abuse without dishing it right back. Why should I be the one to absorb it. The stronger people should be doing that.

assertiveness and aggressiveness - Google Search

Psychology Today: Assertiveness, Not Aggressiveness
Assertiveness means standing up for yourself in a nonaggressive way.
Psychology Today: Health, Help, Happiness + Find a Therapist articles/pto-20040212-000002.html - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

Assertiveness vs. aggressiveness
Defining the difference between a complaint and criticism is one key to understanding the distinctions between aggressiveness and assertiveness. ...
Assertiveness vs. aggressiveness - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

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Parenting Tips, Guides and Tools life_lessons/2001-02/Sep02_assert_agg.asp - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

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http://www.management-issues.com/display_ page.asp?section=opinion&id=2697 - 35k - Cached - Similar pages

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http://www.seekingsuccess.com/articles/art106.php3 - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

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http://www.mhsanctuary.com/articles/assert.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

I refuse to be blamed for getting attacked. Just because I opened up doesn't give people the right to use it against me. I could just as easily pick anyone else apart that opens up, nobody is perfect.

I think also if you are less hard on other people you (or at least I did) find that you're not so hard on yourself. You don't have to hold yourself up to the high standards anymore because you lowered them for everyone and let people be free to be people and screw up. By the way I'm not talking just about you here, but in general and it's just what I've found personally.

Yeah It's like a less stressful way. To think, wow, I can lighten my load and be better for it. I know I'm always so hard on myself, and the thought of trying to do more when I already carry so much is discouraging. I'm often expecting myself to be able to do things as well as others when it's really out of my range of abilities. But the way the world is set up, you are expected to be able to have certian abilities and if you lack it's hard to fit in.

I see a lot of people take abuse without dishing it back.

What I meant was people that aren't punching bags. Oh I've heard the tales of people talk about themselves and how they are so wondeful in the way they deal with people even when they have been treated so poorly. But let me say their actions have been a large disappointment.

Sounds like a shade of grey!

Heh, very true.

Good for you!! I agree--partially honest therapy is better than no therapy at all. You know what will get you put in the hospital. You know something kind of freaked me out when I went to therapy yesterday...I was talking to the therapist about how I was very stressed out, etc and I used the term "crash and burn" and let me just give you a heads up to avoid that term. Then I got the "are you thinking about hurting yourself?" questions, like he really thought I was going to literally crash my car and burn up in it or something :roll: It was very strange and it freaked me out and I'm thinking about not going back now because of it.

I hope anything I said hasn't caused you stress. I do think you're probably right about therapy.

Anyway, sorry to talk about myself so much...your posts just got me thinking a lot I guess. Mainly I just wanted to say that although I don't have much in the way of good advice that I am reading what you're writing and I'm glad that you're coming back. I think it's really nice that thatlady has dealt with similar issues so she is probably a really good resource for you.

I don't think you need to be sorry, you have added a lot of good stuff to the discussion.

I, too, have seen many people who APPEAR to be taking abuse and not dishing it back. However, sometimes it's not what it appears. Sometimes, these people are simply treating the abuse as it deserves to be treated...with studied disdain. I've used that method myself, at times. You'd be amazed how well it works.

I have used that, I unfortunately wasn't amazed. I mean sure different situations may call for different ways of handling it, but a lot of people get caught up in the looking down on others point of view and become quite arrogant. I know people like this and they are unreasonable and are very unpleasant to deal with, but they think they're all peaches and cream.

<<The way I go about it is I almost always let other people get their way and I think, well since I've been so considerate to them they will show me it back on this rare occasion I really want something my way. But it never seems to work out that way.>>

RBM, you wrote the above, and I've been meaning to respond to that post. Now that so many others are offering so many great suggestions here I don't want to distract too much, so I just want to comment on that quote of yours.

I have a very close friend who always lets others get their way hoping the same thing as you. The problem with doing that is, if you just let people have their way the whole time, they get used it, and they may not even realise that you are sacrificing so much, and giving in so much. I have to confess, that even I took a lot of what my friend did for granted - not because I was trying to be nasty or to abuse her... It's just that when someone behaves in a certain way for a long time, you just get used to it, and you get to expect it.

So maybe, when you're giving in to people, and constantly letting them have their way, they're not even realising that you're giving in. Maybe they think you don't mind, or you don't care. Even if they do, because they're used to doing what they want when they want, even KNOWING that you're not happy with something, they could just go ahead with it. Because they know that you'll just take it. So even though it's not the nicest of behaviour for them, they're probably not giving it that muchthought, and just getting on with life.

But if you would make them stop and think, you could maybe try to balance things out more. Even were you to say "You should know actually, that I really feel that x y and z should happen, not what you think. But I'm prepared to let you have your way, and see what happens." So by saying that you're letting them know that you want something else, but you're letting them have their way, and you're bringing that to their attention.

Of course, the ultimate is for you to be able to be fully assertive (eg "No, I don't think that we should do what you suggested. I think that doing x y and z is better in this situation, since ... etc") But I also find being assertive-but-not-aggressive hard, so at least this would be step in the right direction I think.

I see where you are coming from this is where I really hurt with not having good support when I was a kid. People that don't care will use you up and down, but if I had someone who was a true support they could have seen me giving in and all the destruction that had created and helped me realise what was happening and help me to start working on it. They really need to teach kids in school about all the emotional/mental/social part of life. I mean a lack of a little book knowledge wont kill you, but a lack in this area just might.

But as far as now goes it's the same old broken record for me, I can't handle displeasing people. I can really dig down into my courage well and do it once in awhile and just live with feeling terrible and I do that sometimes. But in life you have to be able to disagree and displease people on a regular basis.


This disscussion seems to be off course. Unless someone else is wanting help with it, The whole assertive/aggressive thing is just about the last of my problems. It's the consequence of being assertive(or what I think them to be) that provides the trouble for me.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

The whole assertive/aggressive thing is just about the last of my problems. It's the consequence of being assertive(or what I think them to be) that provides the trouble for me.

On the contrary. I think it is at the heart of some of your problems, including some demonstrated here in this thread.

It's a suggestion. Do with it what you will.

 

[ThatLady]

Thing is, RBM, you weren't being attacked here. You perceived some things that were said as attacks when, in fact, they were simple efforts to help. Your reaction was aggressive rather than assertive.

I hope you don't perceive what I'm saying now as an attack. It isn't. I'm merely trying to point out to you how you're misinterpreting peoples' intent. You, yourself, say you don't always react properly in situations because you don't really have a full grasp of social situations due to your background. That's where therapy can really be of help to you.

 

[RBM]

The whole assertive/aggressive thing is just about the last of my problems. It's the consequence of being assertive(or what I think them to be) that provides the trouble for me.

On the contrary. I think it is at the heart of some of your problems, including some demonstrated here in this thread.

It's a suggestion. Do with it what you will.

You don't have a clue, you stick up for your clique by bringing others down.

You take the opportunity to go at a weak person when they open up is low, it's like physically attaching a senior. Your jab at me you have veiled as a "suggestion" is pathetic.

You have much to learn about personality disorders.

Thing is, RBM, you weren't being attacked here. You perceived some things that were said as attacks when, in fact, they were simple efforts to help. Your reaction was aggressive rather than assertive.

Oh how nice the pack mentality. Open your eyes and learn to see reality. You perceive that you have this grand knowledge and know it all but your wrong. Arrogance does not equal wisdom dispite what you may think. I was attacked, you have much to learn about communication if you think otherwise. My reaction was most definitely assertive, and as far as YOU saying that to ME I have a quote for you. "Let those without sin cast the first stone". You may want to think of that before loading up on stones. You should also do some intensive study on humility, you could use it.

I hope you don't perceive what I'm saying now as an attack. It isn't. I'm merely trying to point out to you how you're misinterpreting peoples' intent. You, yourself, say you don't always react properly in situations because you don't really have a full grasp of social situations due to your background. That's where therapy can really be of help to you.

Golly where would I be without your vast knowledge to tell me where I'm wrong, good thing you're always right:roll:. I'm merely pointing out that you think yourself a genius but your contentious advice falls short.

Oh lovely, you try to prove your point by using what I've shared against me. Just because I had the courage to open up doesn't mean I deserve that. All it is, is gutless. Perhaps you could look into some type of therapy or something to teach you love and empathy.

I hope you don't perceive what I'm saying now as an attack, It's a suggestion. Do with it what you will.

I tried to take the high road and go the extra mile with you but you wouldn't let me. So I'm afraid sometimes you get what you deserve. I'm sure the words will be unanimous that your were right, and hey isn't that what it's all about. Why help someone rebuild their life when you have the chance to boost your ego.

I'm truely sorry if this incident has had any type of negative effect on anyone not involved. Good luck to everyone with all your struggles.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

You've just done it again, RBM. Can you not see that?

 

[Peanut]

Hey RBM, Well it sounds like maybe you're leaving ...I am truly sorry to hear that. Although it is apparent that you are suffering I thought that you had a funny sense of humour in your posts and I will miss that if you leave. If you ever want to come back just remember that you can.

I will miss you if you leave. If we don't chat again--good luck to you too

Remember that after you storm out you can always storm back in.

It's alright to make mistakes and come back and be friends with people here!