Finding reasons to go on

[Banned]

Sometimes I wonder if certain people (like me) just aren't made for this world. I am torn between wanting to be here and not wanting to be here, knowing full well that even if I choose to stick around, I may never truly be well enough to actually enjoy it and will always just be going through the motions.

I wonder why we are so obligated to be here. I didn't ask to be born, and yet I've got all these people telling me I can't die. It doesn't make sense to me. Death is never convenient; there's never a good time to die. I get that.

I only started on anti-depressants this week, but I'm not doing it for me. I'm not doing it because I *want* to get better (I don't think). Really I just want to check out. I suppose I'm taking them for the benefit of everyone around me who has to put up with me. I know they haven't started to work yet...and I need to give them time. But what if even after they start to work, I still want to check out? Why is that so wrong? I hate feeling obligated to stay alive for the sake of those around me. And yet that's the only thing that keeps me going right now. I definitely don't have any hope for the future. My life will not amount to anything and I'm past my capacity to help others. It's time for me to go, and yet, I can't.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

knowing full well that even if I choose to stick around, I may never truly be well enough to actually enjoy it and will always just be going through the motions.

That's a big part of the problem. You say "knowing full well" when in reality what you are expressing is a fear, not a fact. It is part of the distorted pessimistic negative thinking that characterizes chronic depression.

From a more objective viewpoint, it is clear that there is every reason to anticipate that you can achieve the kind of life you see other people having and believe you can never have.

You've been trying to work toward that goal in therapy, although I don't know how consistent that's been, and until very recently without the help of any medication. And you're basing your conclusions partly on lack of or limited sucess to date. With the combination of the right medication and the right therapist or therapy plus sufficient time and effort on your part, there is no reason whatsoever to conclude that you cannot construct the life you want for yourself.

 

[Daniel E.]

But what if even after they start to work, I still want to check out? Why is that so wrong?

Well, even when people don't take antidepressants (and are in the placebo group), the depression would lift to some (lesser) degree over a period of weeks.

Of course, when people are less depressed, they also tend to be less interested in suicide So anything -- anything at all -- that helps lower the depression or helps lower unhealthy stress is going to help lower the suicidal thinking.

 

[Banned]

You've been trying to work toward that goal in therapy, although I don't know how consistent that's been, and until very recently without the help of any medication.

I think we're "stuck" in therapy. I really do. I think everything is just a big jumbled mess and we don't even know which way to go anymore. It's like a big ball of yarn and we can't find the starting point.

I know I *just* started on the Cipralex, and it hasn't had a chance to work, so technically I'm still on the downward spiral that I've been on for awhile.

Getting better scares me, too. Alot. To the point where I don't know if I want to, but why would anyone choose to live their life like this (or choose the alternative?). What is it about getting better that scares people? It should be a no-brainer, but it's not. For me, it's not like it's attention-seeking behaviour, because I present myself as "normal" to the rest of the world...nobody knows about my "issues" except my therapist(s). But why would someone choose death over life when/if there is in fact hope for a good life?

 

[Retired]

But why would someone choose death over life when/if there is in fact hope for a good life?

The reason is what David stated earlier:

It is part of the distorted pessimistic negative thinking that characterizes chronic depression.

Suicidal thoughts come from a sense of hopelessness generated by the illness of depression, so the feelings are coming from the effects of the illness rather than from rational thought.

This would be the time, Turtle to focus on those around you who mean the most to you, as these are your reasons to live.

Are there circumstances in your life that can be modified to relieve any stress that might be hindering your recovery?

 

[David Baxter PhD]

I think we're "stuck" in therapy. I really do. I think everything is just a big jumbled mess and we don't even know which way to go anymore. It's like a big ball of yarn and we can't find the starting point.

Perhaps the reasons for the "stuckness" should be discussed with your therapist as a priority. Sometimes it's necessary to acknowledge that you've learned all you can learn or gone as far as you can go with a particular therapist, and that it's time to move ahead to someone new with different skills and knowledge or a different approach, as with any teacher or mentor. On the other hand, sometimes the source of the "stuckness" is with the client/patient - frequently this is unintentional, of course. So the first requirement is to determine why it is you're stuck...

Getting better scares me, too. Alot. To the point where I don't know if I want to, but why would anyone choose to live their life like this (or choose the alternative?). What is it about getting better that scares people? It should be a no-brainer, but it's not. For me, it's not like it's attention-seeking behaviour, because I present myself as "normal" to the rest of the world...nobody knows about my "issues" except my therapist(s). But why would someone choose death over life when/if there is in fact hope for a good life?

Indeed. This is more common I think than many people realize. It's not that you are choosing death over life. It's more that you are choosing the familiar and predictable over the unfamiliar and uncertain. Change can be a scary thing, because you don't know where that change will lead.

So given this, why take the risk? Because the status quo is both unhappy and a dead end. That's why people choose change, however scary, over the safe, the familiar, the comforting:

And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. ~ Anaïs Nin​

 

[Daniel E.]

What is it about getting better that scares people?

Well, one thing with me is that as the depression gets better, the anxiety tends to increase (the unpredictability that David mentions above). So it's kindof like the issue in DBT with borderline disorder where treating one issue still leaves other issues for the time being, making acceptance/tolerance of psychological discomfort important in order to maintain progress (the "tough love" of promoting "radical acceptance").

 

[Banned]

I've thought about changing therapists, but I adore my therapist. She's amazing. She's brought me so far, and the thought of having to start over with someone else is too difficult. Sometimes I wonder if I've gone as far as I can go with her, but I think a bigger problem is that I don't know how to express myself when I'm there, and I know she sometimes feels like she doesn't know how to help me. I guess I'll see if I can figure out a way to better express where I'm at and what I need...I don't know...I just, I feel stuck, so it's hard for her (or anyone) to help me if they can't figure out where exactly I'm at. I like a written venue, because I can take my time, formulate words, backspace as needed, etc. And I guess I feel like it's the same issue over and over. I'm getting tired of it, so I have to assume that she is too.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

I've thought about changing therapists, but I adore my therapist. She's amazing. She's brought me so far, and the thought of having to start over with someone else is too difficult. Sometimes I wonder if I've gone as far as I can go with her, but I think a bigger problem is that I don't know how to express myself when I'm there, and I know she sometimes feels like she doesn't know how to help me. I guess I'll see if I can figure out a way to better express where I'm at and what I need...I don't know...I just, I feel stuck, so it's hard for her (or anyone) to help me if they can't figure out where exactly I'm at. I like a written venue, because I can take my time, formulate words, backspace as needed, etc. And I guess I feel like it's the same issue over and over. I'm getting tired of it, so I have to assume that she is too.

It might be more productive if you try to see this as something you need to figure out together, rather than looking at it as "I need to figure out how to express myself better" or "she needs to figure out how to help me".

 

[Yuray]

Hello Turtle.

I have a turtle. She lives in a bathtub. She can come and go as she pleases. Often while watching television, I will notice her on the floor looking at me, then moving over to the xmas tree (yes, it is still up) to bask under the lights. There is nothing marvelous or cognitive about her actions. They are rote instinct. She knows neither of life or death. She is not aware of either, yet she exists. The only emotion available to her is fear, and that is not recognized as such. It simply is. Any choices she makes during her day were not arrived at by critical thinking, they are instinctive, and unexplainable. After reading your posts, I see a reflection of you in my turtle.

I know a man. He is content with all that is in his life. he laughs, cries, practical jokes, is loved by many. To see him is to recognize that he embraces all that is good, and tries to change all that is bad. I know this man to his core. He would rather be dead than alive. His reason is that he has felt the greatest elation, and severest pain, and there is nothing more than repetition of emotion. He doesn't want to live in a world where for many the world has nothing more to offer. He wants to see what's next. Simple as that. He is not depressed. No therapist.
No medications.

He told me that if he were depressed, seeing a therapist, and on medications, his view would be distorted, not supported. He simply has seen and experienced enough. He will not take his own life. There is no need for it, for he will die in time, but he wished it would be sooner than later.

He is aware of the preciousness of life, and there are many dying, who cry out for life, but that is not enough to make him develop a zest for life from guilt. He just wants whats next.

His outlook seems abnormal from the viewpoint of those who desire life, for we are taught, and feel, and embrace the concept of living to the best advantage. As you or I would feel full after a fine meal, and couldn't possibly eat another bite, so is his outlook on life. Its not that the meal was not good, we have just had too much of a good thing, and need time to digest.

Is this how you feel?, or do you require purpose to feel alive? You spoke of lack of expression, yet you made the ambiguity of your feelings quite plain to all that read this post.

There is a simple resolution to your relationship with your therapist. Print this entire thread and present it to your therapist and say " this is me, what can you do?"

Yuray

 

[Banned]

Thank you for your insightful reply, Yuray.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. I too have simply seen and experienced enough. I've lived a life. I've not enjoyed it. I need to leave it. Unlike your character, I cannot promise I will never take my own life. I wish someone would tell me it's ok though - that I can do it.

I don't understand this part about rallying to save someone's life, when that person doesn't want to be alive. Why not just let them go?

Yes I go to therapy. Yes I take antidepressants. Yes I do everything my therapist tells me to do. And yet I still do not wish to be here.

I've simply seen and done enough.

And yet people will still rally to "save" me. What they are saving is a shell. I died inside a long, long time ago.

 

[ladylore]

This is the depression talking Turtle. I know this because I have seen you when your feeling better, and you don't have thoughts like this. Just hold on.

 

[NicNak]

Hi there Turtle :support:

I am so sorry to hear you are stuggling like this. I relate in many ways to how you feel. I battle these ideas quite frequently myself. Often wondering what is the point.

While I am feeling this way, I remember the good days I have. The days where I am able to get out and enjoy the simple things in life.

I also think of my family and how much pain I would cause them. I know how much they love me and it would totally devistate them. As weird as it sounds, I would much rather hold onto the pain I deal with, then cause them the pain of my loss of life.

I know it is difficult to find things to hold onto when feeling this way. During this time I run as many reasons to go on as I can though my mind.

You posting here was great Turtle and I am glad you did so. It shows you still have some hope there, that you are looking for something to hold onto.

The medication will help Turtle. You should feel some relief in the next few weeks. Have you spoken to your prescribing doctor regarding your feelings Turtle? Does your therapist know the extent of these feelings? It is important they know.

I am sincerly sorry you are hurting, I feel for you. Just try to remember always, tomorrow is another day. Three days from now there could be something that takes your breath away, one of lifes beautiful miracles.

When that moment comes, hold onto it for dear life and reflect back on that again when feeling hurt. That is what I do. I hope I helped out a bit.

Many hugs and support. :friends:

 

[Yuray]

Lots of advice and positive vibes on how to re-align your thinking to show reasons for staying alive, but you are not really listening to them are you. Your pain won't allow you to see any logic. Your desire for death, and your lack of reasons for life are consuming. These thoughts remove any and all pleasures you that may have, or may be.

These feelings may or may not pass in time, but to be supported in a desire for death by others is possible when your reasons for death are valid and made through sound judgement and good explanations. You wonder why people rally for saving life......its because they don't know what else to do. Ask them why they rally, and maybe you will learn something.

Sadness is not a valid reason for death. It is an over reaction to misunderstood emotions. Oddly enough, choosing death for the appropriate reasons is a 'life style' choice. A certain amount of mental soundness and perhaps enlightenment is required. At this moment, you display neither.

Do print this thread and present it to your therapist. If you can bring her on board with your desire for death, tell your family and friends of your intentions and allow them to see that your world is full, and you have experienced the best life has to offer. When you convince them, and have set the time to leave, call me. I shall present you with 5 baby rabbits, eyes unopened, crying for a mother that is dead, driven by nothing more than instinct for life. If you choose to ignore their cries, and continue with your plan, then you are not of sound mind. If you put the rabbits needs before your own, then you are of a more sound mind.

Guilt is a wonderful thing isn't it Turtle.

May your road be clear

Yuray

PS if you choose to respond to this reply, please address every point I have mentioned. I will not accept any 'yes but....' sentences. You have here an opportunity to convince us all. Well?

 

[Daniel E.]

If you put the rabbits needs before your own, then you are of a more sound mind.

...Guilt is a wonderful thing isn't it Turtle.

What

Turtle already stated in the first post of this thread that she feels she is just living for other people:

I hate feeling obligated to stay alive for the sake of those around me. And yet that's the only thing that keeps me going right now. I definitely don't have any hope for the future...

Anything that prevents a suicide is better than nothing, but to thrive rather than just survive obviously more is required, e.g. ensuring one's psychological needs are being fulfilled.

 

[Yuray]

Try to see the bigger picture Daniel. People often put the needs of the helpless before their own, and there is little more helpless than a life that will die without intervention. The rabbits are metaphorical and the mention of them is to incite thought. Perhaps this thread isn't the place to debate semantics. If you wish to discuss this in a PM, feel free.

 

[Daniel E.]

OTOH:

"The commonest form of acting out that I see in my patients is excessive caring."

http://forum.psychlinks.ca/depression/18258-does-depression-increase-or-diminish-our-empathy.html#post136615

And psychological needs include the need for belonging/affiliation, as discussed in Why People Die by Suicide.

 

[Banned]

PS if you choose to respond to this reply, please address every point I have mentioned. I will not accept any 'yes but....' sentences. You have here an opportunity to convince us all. Well?

I don't really have time to address every point, Yuray, and I don't respond well to commands, as I am not a dog.

I appreciate your input and advice. It is good, sound input. However, it is obvious to me as well that you have not experienced the debillitating effects of depression in your own life. I have lived with depression since I was a teenager, and it is extremely difficult. Each time it comes back with a vengeance. I am doing EVERYTHING my therapists tell me to (yes I have more than one) so to say I'm not listening is, in my opnion, ignorant and unfounded.

Yesterday I took my dogs for a hike, took Brody to scent hurdle, did some stuff around the house, but there was no joy. I went through the motions. Perhaps once my medication starts to work in a few weeks things will be different and I will again find joy.

Chances are I'll make it through this, like I always have in the past. It doesn't take away from the immediate pain, distorted thoughts, and clouded thinking that are a part of it, however.

I feel like you're judging me, Yuray, and I don't think that's your place. You haven't walked in my shoes, and really know nothing of my life and struggles.

 

[Banned]

I shall present you with 5 baby rabbits, eyes unopened, crying for a mother that is dead, driven by nothing more than instinct for life.

Actually I will speak to this point, Yuray, only because it's funny, in my mind.

You see, I feed my dogs frozen rabbit heads as a treat, so I have had more than my fair share of dead rabbits. So baby rabbits won't "guilt" me into anything, except maybe not giving them to my dogs as a treat

 

[Jackie]

Sometimes I wonder if certain people (like me) just aren't made for this world. I am torn between wanting to be here and not wanting to be here, knowing full well that even if I choose to stick around, I may never truly be well enough to actually enjoy it and will always just be going through the motions.

I wonder why we are so obligated to be here. I didn't ask to be born, and yet I've got all these people telling me I can't die. It doesn't make sense to me. Death is never convenient; there's never a good time to die. I get that.

You haven't walked in my shoes, and really know nothing of my life and struggles.
.

Hi Turtle,

I can really relate to your post, just wanted you to know that. I have felt like this so many times in my life, not at the moment so much as a few things have changed in my life. I wanted to write a longer reply about being obligated to be here etc, but I think it might not be suitable for the rules of this forum, not that I am advocating suicide, just some stuff I believe thats all, about being here/death and suicide. Anyway all I can do is send you love and hugs ( though I know thats not enough or what you want at the moment) and your right about people not having "walked in your shoes" even though we can relate, everyones situation is unique and no-one can fully understand another persons struggle. Take care:hug: