Narcissistic mother destroying sister's marriage?

[poppy111]

i'm watching my mother destroy my sisters marriage, and dont know what to do...!

He wants to move away with my sister, and this has gone against my mothers wish, hell hath no fury with the wrath hes been exposed too...

And my sister- is pretending everything is fine! and treating her husband like a dog!

she (the favourite) is unaware of my mothers scheming ways and the back stabbing jibes. i caught mother today bad mouthing my sisters husband, and telling everyone what a poor soul my sister is, as her husband has been abusing her. (which he hasnt) She is now attempting to divide and conquer him, and he has always been close with the family. telling me that it would be two faced of me to attend an event that has been organised for months.

my mother is an undiagnosed narccissist. there is no question about that. i've shone a light for him onto narcissists. And let him make his own conclusions. He's a very intelligent man, and of a very high preffession. He has been bullied and battered, by jibes, and not being allowed to voice or express himself since he's married her, and he told me it was like a bolt of lightening, to read these things, he was shocked. And now he wants to know how to get my sister to see things as i do...?

without hurting her, or anyone. Is it something that she should be left to discover, once she's divorced him, or should he explain to her what our mother is to try and cut the apron stings and try and let their little family survive. what would you do?

i wanted to talk to her today, but mother and another sister seemed to be shadowing her all day. so she cant talk. i feel like i'm being watched so i cant talk to her, and i only managed a word briefly with her husband.

he doesnt know what to do.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

I don't understand. Are you suggesting that your mother and another sister are deliberately keeping your sister away from you and her husband?

Have you tried previously to discuss your mother with this sister? If so, what was her reaction?

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

Hi poppy111,

Are you suggesting that your mom and your married sister are both Narcissistic or have some traits or are dysfunctional?

I get the impression he's told you he wants to take your sister (even though he treats him terribly) and move away to try to (presumably) to keep your sister away from the influence of your mother.

You sound like you feel bad for him, and that he's been confiding things to you (like this plan to divorce your sister). Just be really really careful not to let yourself get too enmeshed and wrapped up in what is going on with him and your sister. What is going on between your sister and him, should be between his sister and him. Of course, it's fine to give him some information on Narcissism and NPD, as you mentioned you will leave interpretation up to him. I'm just sayin' be careful because it might start looking like something else is going on between you and your sister's husband. It sounds like you are describing that your mom is interfering with your sister's marriage, but you might also need to be mindful of where you stand inside this dysfunction, as well. It's hard to keep one's head when one is surrounded by all this...

That being said, my interpretation of what you are saying is this: your mom is trying to spread terrible rumours about him abusing your sister. On the other hand, it sounds like he enables your sister because he can't seem to stand up to her and is, as you say, "is not allowed to have a voice or express himself." And I don't know if he's discussed his plans for divorcing her if she doesn't see what's going on... Maybe it might be the best route if you suggest to him to go to a family therapist or couples counselor with your sister. You might as well protect yourself in this mess so your mother can't turn around and say to your sister that you and her (your sister's husband) are planning on cheating on her, or him getting divorced so he can go away with you or something, or spread rumours about you like that they way she is with your sister's husband. At least you can say "All I said was for the two of them to get couples counseling." And then it wouldn't be you in the position of the "fixer" in the family. I'm a fixer, too, although not so much anymore. I recognize now that a fixer can become too enmeshed in other people's business... When I mean to "help" but it's really more like "interfering." It not only was inappropriate at times, but it was a trait my mother has and she is an N. She tries to "fix" things too, and it doesn't really fix things, it makes them break more.

Sorry, don't mean to sound harsh. I am concerned for you and what's going on. You have a right to be concerned for your family, but if anything, I would suggest you talk to your sister, and not talk so much about these things with your sister's husband. Ask your sister, does she know what's going on, does she see the family dynamics? Have you run these things past her, since you've already run them past her husband? Do you want to rescue your sister from your mother, or do you want to rescue your sister's husband from your mother and his marriage? Are you truly aware of what it is you are really trying to do?

 

[poppy111]

yes, david my mother and other sister(also some form of narcissitism) are shadowing the first sister, so that no -one can talk to her. whilst telling everyone around what a bad egg her husband is and she is in such a bad place. My sister sat across the other room and watched a conversation between our mum and an old friend, my mum thought she couldnt hear.

'the only reason he is a bad egg, is because he didnt do as he was told'

i think maybe enough said i need to leave it alone as i dont want to be responsible for anything bad happening. All i've done is show him NPD(i do feel that maybe i shouldnt have done that now, but i think he understands my sisters behaviour better) and it switched a light bulb, i cant advise him on his marriage. which i havent done, but he did ask what he should do.

As for being a fixer, unfortuanetly, i've always done it, but have tried to back off in later years, i seem to get the blame for being in the middle of it all. i've only spoken to her husband once, and briefly for 5 mins. we're all kept firmly seperated.

i suppose for him, he's been feeling like he's loosing it, so for him as an idividual understanding what has been happening, must make his vision clearer. I just wish my sister could see for herself.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

It's all good. That was okay to go ahead and give him that information. But it's good you separate yourself somewhat from him otherwise.

Hopefully if you talk directly to your sister, maybe you can encourage her to go to couples or family counseling with her husband, or even you could go to a family counselor first and find out more information, and then invite your sister to come with you. Then she might even want to have her husband come... It's a given that dear ol' ma will probably refuse to go to counseling.

If you go to a therapist first and talk about your mom, he/she will probably agree there is a problem, and having that knowledge from a professional might convince your sister to come, too...

 

[heatherly]

this happened to me when i met my husand. my mom kept finding fault with them, and if he and i were going to visit another family member she would say, 'he or she doesn't like him.' and then he would tell me that i behave differently towards him after visiting my family. we moved away from her, and i noticed the change for good in our relationship. a narcissistic mother must divide and conquer because she wants you all to herself. unless you can make your sister see this, the marriage is doomed.

 

[poppy111]

i think she sees this now.
but i dont know who is my ally, people say things and it all gets back. And then mother will say, she has said this about you...

the situation is horrendous. And my mother is realizing that i am not on her side. which will mean one thing.... its my turn next. Although i expect it and can handle it... the best thing is NO CONTACT.
she is still using me in her games. divide and conquer.

heatherly... i used to live away... and my husband and i were happy. iff i saw my mother or even spoke to her on the phone, my attitude would change towards my husband and we would fight and argue. my mother would say things, sow a small seed and let me explode on him.
i cannot explain the power she has over me, although my sister is saying the same things about her husband.

and my mothers says- i'm doing it for your own good... why do you always do this to me...

she does it... she causes the problems.

 

[heatherly]

Part of the narcissist game is to talk about each other behind their back. Now I only have to survive two sisters but not a mother. I have one ally, my older brother, but even he will go to my older sister and try to fix things for me, and i wish he wouldn't. You can't say anything to anyone that you don't want to get around, but the other problem is, what you say will be twisted or what your mom says about another member of the family in front of you can get back as if you said it. that is how it was in my family.

I know what you mean by telephones too. What you have with your husband is loving and special, and a narcisstic mom wants to destroy it so she can have you for herself. I would not even talk to her via phone or if you do and she starts to put down someone, hang up. There is a way that they make you feel stupid for being married, for trusting your husband, etc. My oldest sister and niece would come to visit, and I wouldn't dare say anything positive about my husband or they would make fun of it. So I don't mention him. I once said that he was going to doctors because he was trying to get more VA disability, and they said something about it being for for PTSD, but that was part of the test he had to take. It was actually for agent orange. But all the sudden they said that he was a wimp because he had PTSP. I said, "Don't tell me that you could see your buddy killed and have to put his body parts in a bag and not be affected." "Oh, it wouldn't bother me." my niece said, and they continued to call him a wimp. And I put up with it. Lucky for me I quit speaking to my niece who started it, and don't have to put up with either of them coming again because my sister won't travel alone. But my family wants to destroy relationships. Now when I talk with my oldest sister we just talk about American Idol or something else that is superficial. And she tries to make me feel guilty for not talking her her daughter or my sister. I am trying to stir away from that subject.

I hope you can get away from your mother even though you live close. Because if she keeps putting him down sooner or later you will see things the way she does. It is a type of brainwashing that they do, and it works. That is why in communist countries they repeat things over and over again until you believe them.

It can also come in the form of repetition. It could be something someone is saying to you, "You're an idiot.", "You don't know what your doing.", "You can't hold a job.", "you're a drunk." If someone says something to you enough, you will eventually believe that it's true.

You are being brain washed

I was in a religion that used brainwashing techniques just like this, and I didn't know it until I got out and was reading a book on brainwashing, and this is what one of the things that they did. It had worked, but then realizing that this was their method helped. I used to think that my mother didn't know what she was doing, and then one day she began putting someone down to me, a politician, and then all the sudden she said, "Oh, you don't like him anyway, so I don't have to convince you." And I thought, "You always knew you were trying to get me to not like family members or my husband." My mother used to say it was for my own good too. It isn't; it is for her own good.

 

[poppy111]

repetition. she repeats things. sometimes changing them. but over and over and over.... till you belive it.... like someone has done something to her, and she repeats it... and it makes you angry about the person that has done something to her.

what she has done is fallen out with my brother in law, and as a result she is trying to destroy him. by bad mouthing him to everyone, by whittering in my sisters ear, now my sister has had enough, she is getting emails, if my mother phones the hosue she puts the phone down if he answers. if they see each other in the street he must cross over the road. all the while she is throwing violent comments about violently hurting him, and then in the same breath threatening to 'beat' us if we disobey. (she has done before) the borther in law is immensly stressed and worried and upset as he is to blame for this mess, an apology wont do it. his wife hates him one minute then loves him the next.

and the next is, she doesnt want to talk about him, but..... 'how is your sister? take it she's still fallen out with me?'pre-empting comments... and discussiion, because she just loves it.

all the while, a marriage is being targetted.

and my view now, after seeing this happen over and over and over.... i've got better things to worry about...
but i understand and i sympathise, and my sister and her husband now my view...

and i can never be honest with my mother... ever


as for sitting and jokig and calling yours a wimp... same here... how wrong of them... how wicked! but sounds all to familiar... least i'm not on my own...

 

[heatherly]

my mother was convincing like that too. later on i just quit believing anything she said about anyone, that is after i saw how she twisted things, and my sister would tell me that she said so and so, and they believed her. it is very hard not being a bystander who has to listen because then it goes bad for you, but i think you have to do it. one day i was alone with my mom and she was putting everyone done, even my husband to be, even my inlaws. i kindly said, mom, he makes me feel guilty to sit here and listen to you put down my bothers and sisters and inlaws.' she blew up and said that she wasn't saying all those things, i was. i was in shock. then my step dad walked in, saw her flipping out and asked me to leave. she didn't talk to me for a year. and my sister said, mom wouldn't have know anything about your husband if you hadn't have told her.' i said, 'i didn't tell her anything. those were her own feelings about him,' but she went on about how she can't be her friend by confiding in her. that is how crazy it got. it always gets back to you in a twisted way. i ended up being the bad person. i am trying hard now to not talk to my older sister about my younger one who won't talk to me and says that i am not talking to her. it seems to me that you and your sister both need to move your families away from her, not even talk on the phone. i saw that but i didn't do that in my younger years. looking bad i would have been much happier not having any of them in my life.

a wimp was the lest of what my niece said. she said some other things and i said, if that is how you feel about you you are not allowed back in my life. in fact for the first time i talled here a total b----. Our conversation had nothing to do with my husband, and i certainly didn't put her boyfriend down to her. but they want to hurt you were it hurts most. i hope i never see her again, and if it means that my sister won't be visiting, that is okay. she isn't much better than her daughter. i think i would love to be in the witness protection program where i can't talk with them and will never see them again. ha.

i think your sister's marriage is doomed unless they get away from your mom.

 

[H011yHawkJ311yBean]

I think the husband should try to get counseling, and if he can't convince your sister to go, at least he can go alone.

 

[poppy111]

re-cap.
sister has sided with husband. She taking his side, and as mother has destroyed every previous relationship she wont take anymore.
she insists no-one talks about her son in law. under any circumstance, yet wont stop talking and gossiping about it.
she has de-manned him, and made him out to be a worthless human. Pathetic and looser. and has sent an email explaining this to him, and that he doesnt deserve her, insulting him in EVERY unimagiable way, included threatening to expose secrets that she has extracted from my sister.

we had a 'family' meeting, where we all agreed to draw a line. not talk about the husband and try and get on. moments later nasty emails where being sent about. from her.

so i wonder what happens next, he is leaving to move away and she will be following. or will she?
she says no- she has had enough and this is the last straw.
we shall see.

 

[poppy111]

i did manage to speak to my sister- i did get in. And she fell out with my mother. my mother in no uncertain terms said 'i'll destroy him...' to which my sister replied 'if you destroy him, you take me down too...' too which my mother shrugged her shoulders. Then took all their wedding photos off her wall and threw them in the bin...

After my sister saw this- her attitude changed- all off a sudden she changed into someone else- she was round at my house every other day- wanted to do things. go swimming go to the shops- i found this demanding as i couldn't spend time with my family... At the same time my sister had paid my husband to paint a fence- a fence that only got half painted as he was preoccupied with his job, she also gave me her possessions, and i would pay when she had moved away with her husband. All of a sudden she would send demanding text messages, demanding the money....

even saying things like 'well if you fall out with me over money, then that's all I'm worth!!!???' i refused to fall out with her, she would send me awful messages, even intimidating... and i would just ignore them.... and i would say 'have you seen mother recently?'
what i knew at the time was, was that mother was using this weak spot, to get a better grip on my sister...

my sister seemed to become a new person when she had no contact with my mum.... and then the moment she was back there....her attitude and mindset changed.... with her husband away for a short period she soon resorted back to the menacing character she always was... and if she came to see me... i would be firm... i would lay down my beliefs about mother to her... and that i wanted nothing more to do with mother....

in the end my sister totally converted... and started getting nasty with her husband.... divorcing him on the grounds of abandonment. he had a job- earning lots of money abroad...

 

[W00BY]

I think there are several things at play here that you need to consider and I would urge you to look at this situation objectively in other words "as if" or "in someone else shoes"

Firstly there is you and your sister which is clearly upsetting you secondly there is your support for not only her but her husband, Jolly is right with regard to this couple counseling may be of help.It may help them to communicate about what is a very difficult and emotional issue(s).

You need to think about what you hope to achieve here as you will never win against any narcissist they create their own reality... one where they are the only one happy...

If you put your cards on the table you will blamed for everything, if you are eventually found to have a differing opinion you will be doubly blamed...

This situation is stirring issues within you that you should maybe look at and have a long hard think and a very clear aim before really doing anything...families are mine fields at the best of times with a narcissistic trait running through you can easily times any trouble by ten.

I speak from much experience and for my own sanity safety and the well being of my children I had to cut myself off from my entire family.

The decisions your sister and her husband need to make are theirs and theirs alone, you may speak the truth but will it ever be viewed as such I understand your frustration and dismay but I really feel in this melee you need to keep yourself as free of these issues as possible...

Good luck to both you and your sister!

 

[rdw]

I agree completely Wooby. One thing counseling may teach you poppy is whose life and behavior you control and are responsible for - the answer here is yours and yours alone. Best wishes in finding a solution.

 

[poppy111]

yes, i feel awful though for telling him to look up narcisisst, in effect he looked it up and realised he had been abused by his wife and mother in law. Although it came full circle with the blame lying at my door, for daring to speak to him.
I'm 27 i've a long journey. i've tried to look at every angle. reading my posts from this time last year- i can see where i was- i want to correct what i've said- but that is a large part of my development. My focus now- is me, my husband and my children.

 

[MHealthJo]

At the same time Poppy, don't beat yourself up too much or conclude too quickly that it was absolutely wrong to send him in the direction of a bit of info (which it is now totally up to him to interpret and think about in his own way.)

I definitely can't say I have any idea what was right, wrong, best, not best, etc - no idea. It's possible that there was no clearcut, absolute, 'right/wrong/best/not best".

But, sometimes, when we have some reason to believe there is an abused, confused, downtrodden person, we may be able to surmise that they may have started to believe awful untrue things, blame themselves, feel crazy, etc. It's possible.

At least, if there is information that they CAN check out if they choose to, that at least ALLOWS them the possibility of another perspective. Maybe their position is a little vulnerable if they are still in the complete fog from the treatment they have gotten.

Knowing there IS another perspective that is possible, could be a great comfort to them and could at least create a possibility of a less vulnerable, less clouded, less weak position for them to do their own thinking from, and make their own choices from.

 

[poppy111]

he is very clear now, as am i

i can clearly see the destructive path of my mother. there is another sibling who got away along time ago, after my mother attacked and destroyed her. she is paranoid, confused and doesnt trust anyone. she's 2 year younger. i've supported her. no matter how many times shes fallen out with me. she doesnt trust me, as 10 years ago, again i was involved in destroying her... this i suppose is why i 'helped' my brother in law.
She has supported me recently with the things that have been going on and also the husband. this alliance must worry my mother.

i just wish- it was different... why these people are the way they are... and i wish it wasn't my mother- i do love her underneath the monster.... everything happens for a reason. and i wouldnt be who i am if it wasn't for what i had been put through.

 

[W00BY]

Being honest with your mother would only serve to equip her with ammunition against you...

Then that fills you with anger and guilt and so on you know the drill

It takes real hard work and I only managed to sort out exactly the borders i needed with my family with the help of a really good psychotherapist.

I just feel sorry for them all now and glad I had the strength to pull myself away and stay away (which is the hard part).

---------- Post Merged at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:37 PM ----------

Furthermore how you are feeling is normal and what you have experienced is typical... not everyone has the ability to step back and say this is not right like yourself.

Wishing you could change it and being saddened by it show just how different you are.

 

[MHealthJo]

It really is so sad and so hard to be in the middle of (or conversely, the way it necessitates such distance and wariness, or cutting off). Just such a shame.

So hard.

It is inspiring to see the compassion you have for people in trouble or suffering, and the positive thoughts that you are working hard to keep in your mind.