Smacking - What do other parents do?

[sunset]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

I am totally against hitting or smacking a child. All it accomplishes is making them afraid of you, and hating you!!
I totally agree with Dr Baxter.

 

[HA]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

We did not use physical punishment such as hitting with our children. We used behaviour modification which was very effective. I don't think spanking is a healthy way to discipline children and most often it is used as a way to vent your anger versus teach the child. The real problem comes into play when you lose control of your anger and hurt your child unintentionally. Some people, who have broken a childs bone during spanking/shaking did not intentionally set out to break the bone.

For those who are able to learn and use the other forms of discipline without smacking in your families....kudos to you for all of your hard work and your children will love you for it.

This article goes into more detail about why it is not the best method of teaching children to behave:

Should we smack our children?
John Waring & Associates
Child and Adolescent Psychologists
06 October, 1998

The research evidence is now overwhelming, smacking children is an ineffective way to manage their behaviour and damages their development. In this column I will outline some of the problems caused by smacking children. In future columns I will write about the many positive child behaviour management strategies that are viable alternatives to smacking.

It is perhaps ironic that we have laws governing assaultive behaviour between adults and yet many people still believe that smacking children is a legitimate form of discipline. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child expressly outlaws corporal punishment of children. A number of countries (Austria, Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden) have already passed laws forbidding all forms of physical punishment of children whether at home or school.

So what are the problems with smacking children?

Research has confirmed that smacking children teaches them to use acts of aggression and violence to solve their problems. It teaches and perpetuates violence as a way to solve ones problems. A sobering thought given our society?s growing concern about violence. Children who are smacked have lower self esteem than those who are not smacked. They often develop resentments towards their parents and get angry with them and sometimes seek revenge. Smacking a child does not educate them about appropriate behaviour. Smacked children change their behaviour out of fear of pain while non-smacked children learn to change their behaviour on the basis of right and wrong and eventually require less parental intervention.

A child who has been smacked may learn to cover up their mistakes or misbehaviour. They may become secretive, blame others and even lie to avoid being smacked. Smacking is ineffective as research shows us that children cannot remember what they were smacked for. They find it harder to develop remorse, empathy and compassion for others because they are overwhelmed by pain and anger and are not able to focus on the effects of their misbehaviour.

Smacked children are unable to retaliate against the adult because of their size and power and so often take out their anger and frustration on younger smaller children. In this way smacking contributes to the development of bullies.

Smacking children increases the risk of child abuse. Parents who rely heavily on smacking their children to manage their behaviour often escalate the smacking when the behaviour deteriorates. When the parent is particularly tired, stressed or frustrated they they can end up physically hurting their children.

When you sit back and think clearly about smacking as a discipline technique you can see it is illogical. For example: your three year old son hits their two year old sister. If your response is to smack the child, then not only have you modeled the exact behaviour you want to correct but you have demonstrated that "might is right". Imagine the child?s confusion when they hear you saying, "Don?t hit your sister" as you smack them!

There are many positive alternatives to smacking our children. They include such things as logical consequences, choices, time out, time in, having the child do "make ups", catching your child being good, positive reinforcement, extinction, reward schedules, having clear family rules and consequences and many more. In the next few columns I?ll start writing about some of these positive alternatives to smacking.

 

[Peanut]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

When you sit back and think clearly about smacking as a discipline technique you can see it is illogical. For example: your three year old son hits their two year old sister. If your response is to smack the child, then not only have you modeled the exact behaviour you want to correct

That is a very excellent point.

Does smacking=spanking, or is smacking something else?

When this thread started I didn't really feel strongly one way or the other about (mild) spanking (as I was spanked now and then growing up), but I have to say that after reading the arguments against it, I decided that logically spanking really does not make sense. It's like that saying "Do as I say, not as I do", and that doesn't work very well and is not conducive to creating an atmosphere of respect.

<edited by Admin>

 

[poohbear]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

Me, too. As I said, I hate the smacking bit with my children and try not to hit them at all. That's exactly right, toeless. It does say "Do as I say, not as I do." In fact, you know my parents used to SAY that to us as children. They also used to tell us what happened in our house, stayed in our house. It's a way of controlling and minimizing outside interference. I can't believe it sometimes when I hear that phrase come out of people's mouths.

And I also think that Lost feels to be in the minority here. But she's not. I believe that many, many, many people physically discipline their children. They just don't admit it. Many times, people say "we don't hit our children" -- yet inevitably, they see "hit" as a beating-- like what I endured as a child. They don't see the occasional slap as "hitting". I see it as "hitting", however, I do not see it as abuse. There is a line, and I don't believe that lost or her partner (as she described) have crossed it.--poohbear

 

[Lost]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

Hi all, I'm back.

Things have been quite hectic and I just had a chance to skim thru all posts written since I've last been here. Thanks Poohbear, Toeless, Lana and e1 for your posts.

I'm sorry to hear how so many people have had terrible experiences of being hit as a child.

I am questioning, though, whether because so many people here have personally experienced the terrible traumas of being hit as children, (and I don't mean the odd smack, but physical abuse,) that they may have gone to the other extreme, and ruled out smacking completely, at all costs, rather than perhaps finding a balance. This idea was reinforced by Dr Baxter's exagerrations and distortions of my post. Like, hellllloooooo?!?!? Let's not jump to extremes please! I am who I am specifically, and generically! There is no other me!

It reminds me of the time I once innocently suggested switching my daughter's milk from full-fat, to skimmed, since she's now older. My therapist came down on me like a ton of bricks, giving me a whole long lecture about how not to dare suggest anything like that to my daughter... how the whole world has gone mad over girls and women being skinny skinny skinny... everyone's talking about diets diets diets.... everyone's obsessing with counting calories, and fat content... women today hate their bodies and have terribly low self-esteem... girls as young as 8 and 9 are already showing signs of anorexia, etc, and "don't do it to your daughter!".
Then I talked it over with my doctor, and he told me logically, "yes, she doesn't necessarily need full-fat milk, I think you can give her lower-fat milk now."

We made the switch, my daughter commented, "Hey, the milk tastes different today!" and I simply responded, "Yes honey, now that you're 6, you can already have 'grown-up' milk!" And that was the end of that!

And I'm sorry but I'm actually exhausted, and can't stay at this computer for much longer so I can't go into eth as much as I'd ordinarily want to.

One thing I noticed - I really didn't average out my son's smacking very logically!!! But after I last posted, averaging the amount of times he was smacked, I wasn't sure, so I talked it over with my husband and asked him how many times he thinks he smacked him. Anyway, we were able to count almost every time, and it was twice when he was 3, and 5 or 6 times when we went through a very rough patch with him recently. Every time, there was something that he'd specifically done, which was really beyond the pale. And every time we talked it over, "does this warrant a smack? what do you think?!?". When we decided that it deserved a smack, then yes, at times my husband smacked him in anger, showing his anger to my son. But it was never done due to impatience, or on the spur of the moment. It was carefully considered.

People have written here about being abused, being repeatedly hit, and to me it all sounds much like parents who are at their wits ends, flipping out and taking it all out on their kids. This is nothing like the situation which I have described as our family's. Remember, I also come from a background of being hit, (possibly abused, but not sure) and come to think of it, my husband was also hit as a child, up till he was around 11. I think people are not differentiating enough between abusive parents, and parents who resort to smacking once in a while. And perhaps people aren't being objective enough.

Anyway, thankfully it hasn't been so much of an issue because (maybe due to the smacking?!?! or maybe due to my methods) his behaviour has become more like your typical 4 year-old boy, and all my usual methods have been working well, as they used to.

I personally have conflicting feelings about smacking. I'm "ambivalent" as my therapist would say. I was smacked and hit personally, so no matter how much I 'intellectually' debate the rights and wrongs of smacking, because I was hit up till I was 18 years old, I feel that it's wrong. That's my gut feeling. I mentioned somewhere here I think, how all my own memories come flooding over me, when hearing my husband smack my son, and remind me of the times that I was hit. But that's me being subjective.

I'm learning how a lot of my gut feelings are not necessarily the correct ones. (like why do I torture myself and eat the worst things, and stay up when my body is craving sleep? because my gut feeling is that I'm bad, and I deserve to be punish, and so I must punish myself.)

When we were in quite extreme situations with our son, we decided that then, in this case, smacking would be a good thing for him. And it really put an end to his bad behavior for good. I'm talking about specifically bad behavior, like the time my son took some oranges, and repeatedly threw them up at the ceiling, watching them splatter all over, and then watching the juice drip down the walls... (yes, he's a creative little devil! and despite my husband giving him a good spanking, and despite the fact that we now have to repaint the ceiling and walls since the orange juice stain doesn't come off no matter how hard we scrubb, we love him to bits!) And I should add that he loves his dad, and respects his dad. They have a wonderful relationship.

And my final point is, one thing I know for certain - that smacking a child who's old enough to understand, and a child whom you can reason with - is uncalled for, and probably wrong. I will never forgive my father for hitting me as a teenager. My memories of being hit, and me hating my father, were really when I was aged 12, 13 and up, when it was purely him taking his anger out on me. Smacking, to relieve somone's anger, is never a good thing. Once a child is 10 / 11 they're DEFINITELY old enough to reason with, and there is no need for smacking. Hopefully even once they're younger, but I don't know... We never smacked my older daughter.

And of course I've spent far too long here, and there's more I want to write, but I really must go now. Too many deadlines... too little sleep...

 

[Lost]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

grrrrr.... look at this lack of self-control! I just can't tear myself away from this computer!

I just reread Lana's and PoohBear's posts properly, and really, my sincerest sympathies go to you... I'm sorry to have triggered those memories. I was shocked reading them, especially PoohBear. I thank you for sharing. I identified with you hating your mother Lana, and I have the same feelings towards my parents. I hold them in contempt, that they think a teenager, of 13, 14 and even 18 should be hit. I still hate them today for it. (yeah... so many issues still unresolved... <sigh> )

And I thank you for reconfirming my own views, which haven't changed, that once children are older, they should never, never be smacked. That was axiomatic from the start.

I started this post talking about smacking a 4 year old.

And now, I'm REALLY going!

 

[Peanut]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

Hi Lost!

I was smacked and hit personally, so no matter how much I 'intellectually' debate the rights and wrongs of smacking, because I was hit up till I was 18 years old,

Wow, that must be/have been hard to deal with Up until the age 18...? That does not sound appropriate at all. It seems like it would be really hard on someone's dignity to be spanked, especially as a teenager.

It seems like in this conversation that we are talking about different degrees of physical punishment...obviously there is quite a range...a light spanking (or smacking--I still don't know if there is a difference ). But what I am wondering, and what I was kind of figuring (although I don't know I am just speculating) is that all of this physical punishment has the same effect, but maybe to different degrees. Such as maybe someone who is spanked rarely and lightly may have some of the same outcomes/effects as somebody that is more severely smacked, but maybe not as severe? And that seems like perhaps a good reason to stay away from it altogether. Lost--I'm not trying to change your mind or anything, I am just trying to explore the distinction between what you are talking about, occasional physical punishment and severe physical abuse, and everything in between. I am curious, what does your therapist say about it?

<edited by Admin>

 

[Lost]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

LOL Toeless!

I hear what you're saying, and if I saw my son starting to hit others, or if I saw that he hates his father, or doesn't wanna play with him any more, or if I noticed any change in his behavior, or his teachers reported a change in behavior, I'd really think again about whether smacking is good for him or not.

But the reason I started this whole post in the first place, was after witnessing the opposite of what I expected. My son started going thru a very rough phase... he came home from school every day really agitated, sometimes covered in scratches from fights in school, and he was ready to flip at the first thing that would provoke him. I went through hell trying to calm his tantrums, protect his sister - and myself from him, he'd kick and pinch and throw - he was totally out of control, and the whole time I was trying to calm him, remaining in control, loving him, being gentle, etc... I didn't feel like I got anywhere... Then, my husband started smacking him when he was around and saw what was going on - AND THEN HIS BEHAVIOR IMPROVED! Radically!

I don't really know what it was that stopped his bad behavior - maybe it was MY methods that finally sank in, or maybe there was some unknown factor that just went away... But all things really indicate to my husband's stepping in, and controlling the situation right away, by smacking him.

About making distinctions, I think there are a few points to separate:
the AGE of the child being smacked
the WAY they are smacked (like just a smack on the hand, or more like hit)
the reason for the smack - it has to really be justified
and the frequency of the smacking.

All of those points make a huge difference.

And I'll ask my therapist what her view is, when I next see her.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

About making distinctions, I think there are a few points to separate:
the AGE of the child being smacked
the WAY they are smacked (like just a smack on the hand, or more like hit)
the reason for the smack - it has to really be justified
and the frequency of the smacking.

All of those points make a huge difference.

No. They don't. They make no difference at all. You are still saying "Might makes right". "If you don't like what someone is doing, hit him".

<edited by Admin>

 

[HA]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

We all make mistakes in our parenting. At some point we have all let our anger get the best of us and act impulsively. Smacking, hitting, shaking, shoving and emotional hitting such as screaming, yelling, put downs are not the *best* methods of discipline.

As parents we owe it to our children to give them the best that we can. Why not use a better method than smacking?

Children's Health: Spanking, Ages 3 to 6
Rob Waters

Another article below talks about why spanking is not the best method of discipline by answering these questions:
? Should I spank my child?
? But if I was spanked and I'm okay, what's wrong with it?
? What's the harm in a little smack?
? But isn't spanking effective?
? Do many parents still spank?
? How can I avoid spanking my child?
? What's a better way to discipline?
? What's the best way to use a time-out?
? What kind of discipline works best?
? What if I still feel like I'm going to lose it?

Should I spank my child?
The short answer is no. When your child misbehaves or acts in ways that are defiant, inappropriate, or even dangerous, you want to show him that this behavior is unacceptable and needs to change. Spanking may seem like a direct and effective way to do that, but it also delivers other messages you don't want to be sent:

?Fear. Spanking teaches your child to fear you -- not to listen to you or respect you. Instead, he may feel hurt and resentful, and retaliate by being uncooperative. If you refrain from spanking, you'll be better able to reason with your children and set limits for your them.

?Violence. Spanking teaches your child that violence is an acceptable way to solve problems and change behavior, especially if someone is smaller and weaker than you. Studies show that kids who are spanked are more likely to hit and fight with other children.

?Distrust. Spanking teaches your child that when he makes mistakes, you'll punish him rather than give sympathetic guidance. It undermines trust and damages the bond between you and your child that should allow him to be confident and flourish.

?Poor self-esteem. Many studies have shown that hitting your child can hurt more than his body: It can injure his sense of who he is. He may reason that if he weren't such a bad child, he wouldn't get hit. Soon, being "bad" becomes part of his identity. Studies by psychologist Irwin Hyman and colleagues at Temple University have shown that regardless of how nurturing a family is, spanking always lowers self-esteem.

?Danger. Spanking can be physically dangerous if you get carried away and hit your child much harder than you intended to. Sometimes spanking can bruise a child, leave hematomas (blood blisters), or injure soft tissue; some kids have even been hospitalized because of it.

But if I was spanked and I'm okay, what's wrong with it?
That's a natural question. After all, most of us were spanked as children -- 82 percent of us, according to the latest poll -- and we didn't turn out so bad, did we? We may feel that our parents were good parents, that they spanked us because they loved us, so why shouldn't we practice the same "tough love" on our kids?

The answer is that we know far more about the negative effects of spanking than we used to. Among other things, a mountain of studies show that children who are physically punished by their parents are more likely to engage in aggressive or violent behavior.

Not very many years ago, some leading child-rearing experts -- even noted pediatrician Benjamin Spock - agreed that spanking was an acceptable way to discipline children. But Dr. Spock and his colleagues have learned better. Today the American Academy of Pediatrics and other child health organizations strongly oppose physical punishment for children.

What's the harm in a little smack?
Plenty. In a study released in July 2002, a psychologist who analyzed six decades of research on corporal punishment found that it puts children at risk for long-term harm that far outweighs the short-term benefit of on-the-spot obedience.

Psychologist Elizabeth Gershoff of Columbia University's National Center for Children in Poverty found links between spanking and aggression, anti-social behavior, and mental health problems. Gershoff spent five years analyzing 88 studies of corporal punishment conducted since 1938.

Another study by Murray Straus, director of the Family Research Laboratory at the University of New Hampshire, followed 800 children between the ages of 5 and 9 and found that kids who were spanked didn't perform as well on tests that measured their ability to learn. Straus thinks the reason is that parents who don't spank their children spend more time talking and reasoning with them. "The less corporal punishment [parents] used, the more stimulation they provided to the child," he says. Straus believes that while spanking may get children to stop misbehaving in the short run, it makes them more likely to act out later on. His 1997 study found that the more children were spanked, the more likely they were to fight, steal, and engage in antisocial behavior. And another study, published in 1994, found that children who were spanked at home in their pre-school years were more likely to be physically aggressive toward their classmates in kindergarten, and that the more often they were hit at home, the more aggressive they were.

A 1999 Canadian study of 4,900 adults also found that those who were spanked or slapped "sometimes" or "often" as children were at twice the risk of developing an alcohol or drug abuse disorder or an antisocial behavior problem; they were also 43 percent more likely to develop anxiety disorders. (The study excluded adults with a history of physical or sexual abuse.) Other studies have also shown that children who are hit or verbally abused are more likely to suffer depression or fits of uncontrollable anger when they become adults, lashing out in rage at their spouses, children, coworkers, and others around them.

But isn't spanking effective?
Spanking may work in the immediate moment to stop an annoying behavior. But parenting is a long-term proposition, and research shows that in the long-term spanking is not effective. Many parents find that once they start spanking, they soon need to escalate - to spank more and hit harder in order to get a child's attention. Hitting a child, while yelling "This is the only way I can get through to you," is an act that makes that statement come true.

Experts have also found that over time, spanking makes a child angry and resentful and less -- not more -- willing to do what you ask. Researchers have found that children who are hit usually don't remember what they were punished for, so they don't really learn anything from the experience, except that you might hit them when you're mad.

Do many parents still spank?
Unfortunately, while spanking rates for older children have declined, most American parents continue to use spanking to punish younger children. Studies show that the more that a parent was spanked as a child, the more likely he is to spank his children. A 1995 survey by the Gallup organization found that 94 percent of parents said they had physically punished their 4- and 5-year-old children, and nearly 30 percent of the parents admitted to hitting children between 5 and 12 with belts, paddles, or other objects. In another survey, one in ten American college students who were spanked or paddled as children said they were hit hard enough to leave welts or bruises.

How can I avoid spanking my child?
It's natural to get furious with your child sometimes. But if you make an ironclad rule for yourself that you won't hit him -- ever -- you'll avoid all the negative consequences of spanking. Most of all, you won't have to worry about having a light slap turn into a dangerous blow.

What's a better way to discipline?
Pre-schoolers are going to push your buttons and test limits -- it's part of their job description. But so is their desire to learn and to have new experiences. Here are a few ways to discipline without spanking:

?Use "do" instead of "don't." Direct your child with positive rather than negative requests. Child development expert and author Penelope Leach points out that telling your child "'You can't leave your tricycle there' is a challenge. It makes him think 'I can too. Just watch me.' But 'Put your tricycle over by the wall so that nobody falls over it' tells the child something positive that he ought to do."

?Enforce limits. Reserve "don't" for truly important rules, then make sure you stick to those limits. For instance, "Don't ever go in the street without a grownup" is a rule that you can never allowed to be broken, even when you want your kid to go deliver a message to a neighbor.

?Teach morality. From the earliest time that a child can begin to understand, it's important to teach empathy and morality. That is, the child should learn to do the right thing because it's right, not because he'll be punished if he doesn't do it. This can be done by explaining to the child why it's wrong to do something that may be hurtful to others. For instance, rather than saying, "If you hit me, I'll hit you back," try saying, "You shouldn't hit me because it hurts, and you know how it feels to be hurt."

By the same token, when you tell your child to do something, explain why. "Because I said so" teaches him nothing that he can add to his understanding of how to behave in the world. "Pick that toy up" leaves a child with no information, but if you tell him to pick it up so his little brother won't trip on it, it helps him learn for the future. (In emergencies, of course, insist on obedience now, then explain later.)

?Create positive incentives. Make cleaning up into a game, bring a toy boat for a sailing trip in the bathtub, or take an umbrella into the shower for the rainstorm.

?Be flexible. It helps to remember that children in the 3-to-6-year-old age group are learning to become independent, to move beyond the home-centered world they've been in to experience new adventures and develop relationships with caregivers and other children. Your job is to help them navigate these new waters, encouraging their desire for autonomy while protecting them from danger. Be unyielding on issues of safety, but give your child a choice on lots of little things, such as which pair of pants to wear outside or what bedtime story to hear.

?Avoid direct clashes whenever possible. When your child is angry or disappointed, let him know those feelings are all right. Talk with him in private, helping him express himself with phrases like "It sounds like you feel mad about that." At the same time, you can set limits on inappropriate behavior ("It's okay to feel mad at your sister, but not to call her mean names)." You're bigger and stronger than your child -- and you can use that to defuse a situation, rather than to hurt.

?Talk about what to do in a conflict. It's important, in disciplining children, to calmly explain why what they did wasn't appropriate, and to give them an example of another way to handle it. For example, tell your child that if another child hits him, he shouldn't hit back. Instead, he should tell the other child that he's angry and report the incident to an adult. This may sound like tattle-telling, but lets a child know that he can appeal to authority when confronted by irrational, aggressive behavior.

What's the best way to use a time-out?
When your child is behaving in ways that are simply not acceptable, and is ignoring your requests to stop, a Time-out may be appropriate. The idea of a Time-out is to remove a child from an enjoyable place in which he is misbehaving and move him - briefly -- to a quiet place where he can calm down, think about what happened and get under control. (The incentive to calm down is to return to the more enjoyable place.) Use Time-outs sparingly -- or they won't carry much weight. And don't make them last for a long time or they can be quite frightening. Laura Davis and Janis Keyser, authors of Becoming the Parent You Want To Be, recommend using the child's age as a guide: a 3-minute Time-out for a three-year-old, a 5-minute one for a five-year-old.

What kind of discipline works best?
When you must feel you must discipline your child, remember that, in his eyes, your disapproval or anger is the heaviest punishment of all. And any consequences you do mete out should be immediate, because a child this young can't think about later consequences, only what's happening right here and now. So if he misbehaves in the morning, don't tell him he can't watch a video that night. But if he acts up in the video store and won't stop, you can pick him up and say "That's it, we're going now and we won't be able to get a video."

And don't forget to demonstrate to your child the same kind of behavior you want from him. If you make a mistake, don't be afraid to admit it and to tell him you're sorry.

What if I still feel like I'm going to lose it?
Even after you've made a commitment never to spank, you're going to get frustrated and angry at times -- it's simply inevitable. If you're the primary caregiver for your child, cultivate friendships with other parents and set up play dates - they're as much about relieving your stress as they are about giving kids an outing. Have friends or family you can call in a pinch, and try to plan some time off for yourself. Many communities have parent talk lines you can call if you're feeling stressed out and fear you might lose your temper. Your pediatrician or your birth hospital can help you find one.Here are some resources you can use to find out more about alternative discipline:

Books:

The Case Against Spanking: How To Discipline Your Child Without Hitting, Irwin A. Hyman, 1997: Jossey-Bass.

Raising a Thinking Child: Helping Your Young Child Resolve Everyday Conflicts and Get Along With Others, Myrna B. Shure, 1996: Pocket Books.

Systematic Training for Effective Parenting, Donald Dinkmyer, 1980: American Guidance Service.

Discipline That Works, Thomas Gordon, 1991: Plume Penguin.

Discipline with Dignity, Richard L. Curwin and Allen N. Mendler, 1988: ASCD.

Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child: The Heart of Parenting, John Gottman, Ph.D, with Joan Declaire, 1997: Simon and Schuster.

Helping Your Child Handle Stress, Katharine C. Kersey, Ed.D., 1995: Berkeley Publishing Group.

Raising Your Spirited Child: A Guide for Parents Whose Child Is More Intense, Sensitive, Perceptive, Persistent, Energetic , Mary Sheedy Kurcinka, 1991: Harper.

 

[foghlaim]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

i have to say that when when my own kids were very young, i did smack them because i didn't, easn'r aware of a better way to stop their really uncontrollable behaviour. then i did a parentig course.. andlearned new method.. ie; teaching them consequences of their behavour.. like you have done.. took a while, lots of tears and tantrums.. but i learned to stay calm, no matter what "he\she" did. and it started to work.
Today all my children are productive, loving and caring ppl. and i attribute that to changeing my approach to their behaviour and rewarding them for their good behaviour.

take care.. nsa

So all i'm saying here is , i can identify with what you were going thru with your little boy, but at the same time smacking didn't really do what i thought it woulddo. it worked only in the short term, thenew methods had longer term benefits for them and me.

I'm not judging you here ok. just relating to your post and giving you a little piece of my story of how i dealt with my kids.

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[David Baxter PhD]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

Research: Effects of Corporal punishment

Among findings on corporal punishment research:

• Physical punishment, when administered regularly, increases antisocial behavior such as lying, stealing, cheating, bullying, assaulting a sibling or peers, and lack of remorse for wrongdoing.
• Physical punishment increases the risk of child abuse.
• Physical punishment serves as a model for aggressive behavior and for inappropriate ways of dealing with conflict.
• Physical punishment erodes trust between a parent and child.
• Physical punishment adversely affects cognitive development.
• Adults who were hit frequently as children are likely to suffer from depression and other negative social and mental health outcomes.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

The Effects of Corporal Punishment

Corporal punishment is a punitive act that inflicts pain. This includes hitting, slapping, spanking, or forcing a child to maintain an uncomfortable position. Most children have been spanked. The use of corporal punishment declines as children reach adolescence.

Opposition
Frequently a punishment has more to do with a parent?s frustration level than with the child?s misbehaviour. Many cases of child abuse result from an escalation of what starts off as "low level" hitting or spanking. Most child welfare organizations have policies opposing the use of corporal punishment. Many child advocates are against corporal punishment because of the affront to the child?s dignity. Others oppose it because of the unfairness of an adult using physical force on a much smaller child. For others still, the issue has been one of justice. If we are legally prohibited from striking other adults, why is it okay to strike a child? Research indicates there are more reasons to oppose the use of corporal punishment and to support alternative disciplinary methods.

Does spanking work?
Studies indicate that physical punishment does temporarily produce the desired results. But in the long term, spanking not only does not work, it carries with it many negative effects. The long-term use of corporal punishment tends to increase the probability of deviant and antisocial behaviours, such as aggression, adolescent delinquency and violent acts inside and outside the family as an adult. One explanation is that after living with violence that is considered ?legitimate?, people expand this to accept violence that is not considered legitimate. For example, violent acts that are considered legitimate include maintaining order in schools by punishing children, deterring criminals and defending one?s country against foreign enemies. The ?cultural spillover? theory proposes that the more a society uses force for socially legitimate ends, the greater the tendency for those engaged in illegitimate behaviours to also use force to attain their own ends. Corporal punishment has been associated with a variety of psychological and behavioral disorders of children and adults, including anxiety, alcohol abuse, depression, withdrawal, low self-esteem, impulsiveness, delinquency and substance abuse.

The emotional climate
It seems that mild physical punishment will have some effect on aggression and delinquency if the punishment is administered in an atmosphere of warmth, reasoning, and acceptance. However, studies indicate that few children are spanked in this type of rational and warm emotional environment. Punishment is usually administered in the heat of the moment, when anger is the strongest emotional influence. Children tend to perceive corporal punishments administered in anger as rejection by the punisher ? usually a parent or other person important to the child. The strength of this perception is determined by the severity and frequency of punishments received. The more rejected children feel, the more impaired their psychological adjustment tends to be. Perceived rejection and physical punishment each negatively affect the child?s emotional and psychological development. Together, the effects are compounded. Corporal punishment is usually predicated by an adult?s frustration level, rather than by the child?s misbehaviour. Most physical punishments are imposed on children to "teach them a lesson," and are usually in response to a perceived misbehaviour. These punishments do teach lessons ? but not the intended ones. Corporal punishments teach children to consider consequences of their actions in terms of what will or won?t "earn" them a punishment. The children are usually not taught to consider others or the consequences of their acts on others. This is a superficial morality, based on the probability of getting caught. There is no development of moral judgment or self-control. When children are physically punished by adults, they are shown that one need not consider the well-being of others. This modelling of violence may be the most damaging effect of all.

Natural vs. artificial consequences
The consequences of a child staying up past bedtime may include not being able to get up on time the next day, being tired and cranky, and/or missing the school bus. The natural consequence is what occurs without adult intervention. When children are helped to recognize the natural consequences of their actions, they can learn to predict these consequences and develop their own judgment based on real situations. A punishment is an artificially imposed consequence. When a parent steps in with artificially imposed consequences, such as punishment for staying up late, the child learns to predict and plan for the punishment. The child learns to focus on how to not get caught, rather than on how to not be tired the next day. The overall result is more likely to be a child who focuses on the rules and how to get around them, rather than on the reasons behind the rules.

Punishment or protection
The use of force with children is not always corporal punishment. There are times when an adult has to prevent a negative, natural consequence from occurring. While children do learn from experiencing the natural consequences of their actions, there are times, such as when a child runs into the street or is about to touch a hot stove, that the price of the lesson is too high to pay. Stopping children from fighting also falls into this category. Restraint prevents potentially serious injury. Physical restraint to prevent something from occurring may be force, but it is not corporal punishment. Restraint precedes and precludes undesirable or dangerous behaviour. Restraint becomes corporal punishment when it exceeds the degree of force necessary to restrain. Spanking a child provides an emotional release for the person administering the punishment, but it comes at the expense of a child?s well-being. The temporary stopping of the undesired activity and the emotional release for the punisher are all that can be said for corporal punishment.

Graziano, Anthony M., and Kunce, Linda J., "Effects of Corporal Punishment on Children" in Violence Update (July, 1992).

Graziano, Anthony M. and Namaste, Karen A., "Parental Use of Physical Force in Child Discipline ? A Survey of 679 Students" in Journal of Interpersonal Violence Vol 5 No. 4., 1990).

McCord, Joan, "Questioning the Value of Punishment" in Social Problems. (Vol. 38, No. 2, May, 1991).

Rohner, Ronald P., Kean, Kevin J., and Cournoyer, David, "Effects of Corporal Punishment, Perceived Caretaker Warmth, and Cultural Beliefs on the Psychological Adjustment of Children in St. Kitts,West Indies" in Journal of Marriage and the Family (August, 1991).

Straus, Murray A., "Discipline and Deviance: Physical Punishment of Children and Violence and Other Crime in Adulthood" in Social Problems Vol. 38, No. 2, May, 1991).

External and Internal Control
I know many adults believe in corporal punishment. In fact 90% of parents admit that they have done it, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics. The debate over corporal punishment is more important now than ever, because the level of violence in our society is out of control. Spanking says to a child, "Power and violence are the way to settle problems in our world." Are these the values any adult wants to hand on to a child? I feel that physical punishment is a damaging practice, for both children and carers. It is disrespectful, it endangers a child?s self-esteem, and it sends a devastating message: I?m bigger than you, so I can get away with it.

But that power play won?t last. When a youngster reaches adolescence and really needs the most secure discipline, corporal punishment will drive him/her away. True discipline teaches a child how to set his own limits, control his behaviour, and take responsibility for his actions. Spanking interferes with a child?s ability to learn the job of self-discipline. Instead, he or she is likely to "learn" to rely on outside authority, and to resent it. Physical punishment creates anger and confusion, not understanding. And these feelings might produce negative consequences later on.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

The Effect Of Corporal Punishment On Antisocial Behavior In Children
10/26/2005
Grogan-Kaylor, A., University of Michigan School of Social Work

Summary:
This study had three aims: to examine the effect of corporal punishment on antisocial behavior of children using stronger statistical controls than the previous literature in this area; to examine whether the effect of corporal punishment on antisocial behavior is nonlinear; and to investigate whether or not the effects of corporal punishment on antisocial behavior differ across racial and ethnic groups.

Link: www-personal.umich.edu/~agrogan/

Method: The study used a non-experimental design and data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth. The analysis was conducted using fixed effects methods to control for observed independent variables as well as all unobserved time invariant variables. Dummy variables were constructed for corporal punishment to allow for potential nonlinear effects. Interaction terms of corporal punishment and racial or ethnic group were constructed to test for the possibility of differing effects of corporal punishment on antisocial behavior across racial and ethnic groups.

Results: Corporal punishment has a nontrivial effect on children?s antisocial behavior in later years despite the strong controls introduced by the fixed effects models. Both lower and higher levels of corporal punishment appear to have this effect. The analysis provides no evidence for differences in the effect of corporal punishment across racial and ethnic groups.

Conclusions: This study provides further and methodologically rigorous support for the growing literature that suggests that the use of corporal punishment is associated with an increase in children?s antisocial behavior.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

Invalid defenses of Corporal Punishment
Murray A. Straus
Family Research Laboratory, University of New Hampshire

A. DEFENSES BASED ON THE PRESUMED GREATER EFFICACY OF CP. 3
A1. If My Dad Hadn't Taken Me Over His Knee, I Would Be In Big Trouble Now. 3
A2. Spanking Is Needed As A Back-Up Or Last Resort 3
A3. The "Eight Strongest Studies" Demonstrate "Beneficial Outcomes" Of CP. 4
A4. "Authoritative" Parents Use CP And Their Children Have The Best Outcomes. 5
A5. Parents Spank In Countries Such As Japan That Have Low Crime Rates. 5

B. DEFENSES BASED ON THE BELIEF THAT SPANKING "IN MODERATION" BY LOVING PARENTS IS NOT HARMFUL 5
B1. I Was Spanked and I'm OK. 5
B2. If CP Makes Things Worse, Why Does Misbehavior Decrease As Children Grow Older?. 6

C. DEFENSES BASED ON PROBLEMS PRESUMED TO RESULT FROM LESS USE OF CP. 6
C1. Since CP Has Been Abolished In Schools, Discipline Has Declined And School Violence Is Up. 6
C2. Crime By Youth Is Up Because Parents Are Not Spanking. 6
C3. No-Spanking Means No Discipline And Children Running Wild. 7

D. DEFENSES BASED ON PRESUMED IMPRACTICALITY OF ENDING CP. 7
D1. Low Education Parents Lack the Cognitive And Linguistic Skills Needed To Avoid CP. 7
D2. Spanking Is Necessary Because Toddlers Don?t Understand Explanations And Reasoning. 8
D3. ?Never Spank? Is A Negative Approach And Won?t Work. It Is Better To Use A Positive Approach And Teach Alternatives. 8
D4 Spanking Is Universal And Can't Be Dealt With By Policies Or Laws. 9

E. DEFENSES BASED ON THE IDEA THAT SPANKING IS NOT THE REAL PROBLEM.. 9
E1. The Real Problem Is Bad Parenting. 9
E2. The Important Issue Is The Overall Pattern Of Parent Behavior 9
E 3. The Link Between Spanking And Mental Health Problems Is Genetic. 10
E 4 Overlap Of Corporal Punishment And Physical Abuse. 10

F. CULTURAL RELATIVISM DEFENSES. 10
F1. CP Is Not Harmful If It Is Perceived As A Legitimate Exercise Of Parental Authority. 10
F2. CP Is Appropriate In The Context Of African American Culture And Life Circumstance. 11

G. STATISTICAL AND METHODOLOGICAL DEFENSES. 11
G1. Spanking Is A Response To Misbehavior Rather Than A Cause Of Misbehavior 11
G2. CP By Itself Has Only A Small Effect And Is Not Worth Worrying About 11
G3. There Is No Evidence That ?Moderate? CP, Used Only Rarely, Has Harmful Effects. 12
G4. We Should Wait For More Conclusive Research Before Advising Parents To Never- Spank. 12
G5. If All Children Are Spanked, It Is A Constant and Cannot Explain Anything. 12
G6. Inadequate Controls For Other Variables. 12
G8. The Effect Size Is Too Small To Make A Difference. 13
G9. Even Prospective Research Does Not Prove A Causal Relation. 14
G10. The Results May Be Due To Recall Bias. 14

H. OTHER DEFENSES. 14
H1. The Bible Tells Parents To Spank. 14
H2. We Should Focus on More Important And Crucial Threats To Children Such As Poverty And Racism 14

Public opinion and an increasing number of parents have shifted away from corporal punishment (CP). As a result, those who continue to favor corporal punishment now have had to defend what was once a taken-for granted and near universal belief. As a result, CP has become the focus of a sometimes-intense debate (see Chapter 1). The debate has taken place in scientific journals (Friedman, Schonberg, and Sharkey 1996), in the mass media (Lemonick and Park 1997), and in the courts (Associated Press 1997). The purpose of this chapter is to show that most of the arguments used in this debate to defend CP do not hold up under scrutiny, and that others are no more valid than equally plausible arguments against CP.

Many of the defenses of CP analyzed in this chapter seem on cursory examination to be scientifically sound. Consequently, even social scientists who are opposed to CP are likely to wonder if they are really correct in opposing CP. One example is Robert Larzelere?s review of the literature on the effects of CP (Larzelere 1996). He winnowed the many studies down to the ?eight strongest studies? and concluded that they all show ?beneficial effects.? However, when one reads the actual studies, what they show is that, without exception, non-corporal methods were equally effective (see section A3 of this chapter).

Altogether, the chapter discusses 32 defenses of CP, grouped under eight headings. I do not anticipate that many readers will read all 32. It is just too much. Instead, the chapter is intended to be a reference source; that is, as a place to look up a particular defense of CP, not a document to be read from start to finish. I suggest using the Table of Contents to locate defenses of interest. In addition, because few readers will examine all 32 defenses, some redundancies were left. For example, the fear that children who are not spanked will be out of control and engage in delinquency and adult crime has been almost an article of faith in American culture. Some of the ways this idea is expressed are dealt with in the defenses A2 and B1, 2, and 3.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

Ending Corporal Punishment of Children

A human rights issue
Corporal punishment of children breaches their fundamental human rights to respect for human dignity and physical integrity. Its legality in almost every state worldwide - in contrast to other forms of inter-personal violence - challenges the universal right to equal protection under the law.

The aims of the Global Initiative already have the support of UNICEF, members of the Committee on the Rights of the Child and key international human rights organisations and individuals. Click here for details of supporters of the Global Initiative.

In previous centuries, special defences existed in legislation in many states to justify corporal punishment of wives, servants, slaves and apprentices. Violence to women remains far too prevalent, but in most states it is no longer defended in legislation. It is paradoxical and an affront to humanity that the smallest and most vulnerable of people should have less protection from assault than adults. Click here for PDF (550KB) of the Global Initiative Handbook: Hitting people is wrong and children are people too.

During the first decade of the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) its Treaty Body, the Committee on the Rights of the Child, has consistently stated that persisting legal and social acceptance of corporal punishment is incompatible with the Convention. The CRC requires states to protect children from "all forms of physical and mental violence" while in the care of parents and others (article 19). The Committee has recommended that states in all continents should implement legal reforms to prohibit all corporal punishment and public education campaigns to promote positive, non-violent forms of discipline, including within the family, schools and other institutions and penal systems. In particular, the Committee has condemned legal concepts which attempt to define "acceptable" violence to children - "reasonable chastisement", "lawful correction" and so on. Click here for full analysis of the Committee's statements and recommendations to states about corporal punishment.

Just as the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women has been preoccupied with domestic violence to women, so the Committee on the Rights of the Child is now leading the challenge to violence to children. When representatives of these two Committees met in 1998 in Geneva to discuss action against family violence, they agreed that "zero tolerance" is the only possible target. As with violence to women, the problem was recognised to be rooted in traditional attitudes and culture, sometimes underpinned by religion. But a practice which violates basic human rights cannot be said to be owned by any culture, nor dictated by any religion.

Other human rights Treaty Bodies - the Human Rights Committee, Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (in a recent General Comment) and the Committee Against Torture - have also condemned corporal punishment of children in various contexts, but not as yet comprehensively. The United Nations rules and guidelines on juvenile justice all support prohibition of corporal punishment. In 1999, a resolution of the Commission on Human Rights called on states "to take all appropriate national, bilateral and multilateral measures to prevent all forms of violence against children...". It requested all relevant human rights mechanisms, in particular special rapporteurs and working groups, within their mandates, "to pay attention to the special situations of violence against children". Click here for analysis of other human rights instruments and Treaty Bodies' statements about corporal punishment.

There have been various landmark judgments, quoting human rights principles and condemning corporal punishment of children, from constitutional and other high-level courts at national level - for example in India, Israel, Italy, Namibia, South Africa, and Zimbabwe - and from the European Court of Human Rights. There is a current constitutional challenge to corporal punishment in Canada. Click here for analysis of key judgments.

The Global Initiative to End All Corporal Punishment of Children aims to ensure that the recommendations of the Committee on the Rights of the Child and other human rights bodies are accepted and that governments move speedily to implement legal reform and public education programmes.

Children should not have to wait any longer to enjoy the basic right to respect for their human dignity. Without co-ordinated action to disseminate information on legal reform and public education campaigns and to mobilise a range of partners, progress will be slow. Corporal punishment is in most countries a deeply embedded traditional practice and political and other leaders do not find abolition popular. It is a deeply personal issue: most people were hit as children; most parents have hit their children. We do not like to think badly of our parents or our parenting. This makes it difficult at first for many people to accept the human rights imperative for challenging and ending all corporal punishment. Click here for answers to the various arguments used to defend corporal punishment.

Summaries of research into the effects of corporal punishment.

Summaries of research into children's views

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

Corporal Punishment: Society's Acceptable Violence Towards Children
By Laurie A. Couture, M.Ed, LMHC ? 1999, 2001

In this socially progressive point in history, do children and adults receive equal human right?s protections from violence? For the past three decades, American culture has been inundated with progressive messages and social attitudes pushing for zero tolerance for violence in the home towards spouses and domestic partners, in the schools towards teachers and students, and in society towards adult citizens in all settings.

Despite this aggressive war on violence, the United States has failed to equally engage in radical attempts to end caretaker violence against persons under the age of 18. Due to increased public awareness of the epidemic of severe child abuse and neglect, social attitudes are slowly coming to recognize and abhor extreme violence towards children. However, persons under the age of 18 are not given the same human right?s protections against physical assault that persons 18 and older are given. Violence in the form of corporal punishment by parents, school teachers and other caretakers continues to be the reality for the majority of American children, even in this socially progressive point in history.

Age Discrimination? Violence towards the young and vulnerable OK in the USA, but unacceptable towards everyone over 18: In all 50 states, it is a crime to hit, strike or use corporal punishment in any deliberate manner, towards the following persons over age 18:

• Spouses
• Domestic partners
• Parents
• Employees
• Senior Citizens
• Interns
• Apprentices
• Psychiatric Patients
• Servants
• Military Trainees
• Waiters/Waitresses
• Store Clerks
• Illegal Aliens
• Prisoners

However, in all 50 states, it is legal for parents to hit, strike or use corporal punishment against their own children. In 23 states it is legal for school teachers, child care workers, residential and youth detention workers and/or foster parents to hit, strike or use corporal punishment against persons under 18 years of age.

Precisely when does legal assault on a child become illegal? Each state has created a different definition of "child abuse". In one state, acts that are viewed as child abuse may be viewed as acceptable corporal punishment in other state. In states that allow corporal punishment in the schools, individual school districts can decide who will choose to opt in or out of accepting its use. In states and school districts that do employ corporal punishment, teachers and school authorities are often given stronger immunity against "child abuse" allegations than parents are allowed. In fact, in some states, such as Texas and Florida, school authorities can inflict bruising during corporal punishment, whereas a parent inflicting such bruising could be reported for child abuse. There are two contradictory forces inherent in child abuse laws: One principle of child abuse law is to uphold the right of the child to be free from assault; yet the law, ironically, strongly guards the right of the adult to assault children, as long as the assault doesn?t reach a certain point. No state or governmental official can precisely define just what that "certain point" is, or exactly how much assault is OK for a child to endure before it somehow transforms into "abuse". No state is bold enough to declare that ALL assault is abuse, therefore declaring that persons under 18 should have the same right to be free from ALL levels and forms of assault, as persons over 18. Instead, we have a very vague, gray area separating legal and illegal assault of persons under 18 years, especially concerning school corporal punishment: Corporal punishment inflicted legally by school authorities in states such as Texas or Florida resulting in deep tissue bruising would be considered to be brutal child abuse in others states, such as New Hampshire or Massachusetts.

Poison gets candy-coated to make it easier to swallow: Common euphemisms for certain acts of corporal punishment have been created through out history to disguise their violent or inhumane nature, and to make them appear harmless. The most common examples include:

• Spanking (i.e., hitting)
• Smacking (i.e., hitting)
• Bathroom Privilege (i.e., rationing, restricting or denying toilet use)

Regardless of caretaker intent, inflicting physical pain upon a child for the purposes of punishment or containment is assaultive, inhumane and degrading to the child.

 

[^^Phoenix^^]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?


ok
Just a quick note. I have to say that I while reading the aggression, anger and sarcasim in this thread, I have become anxious, touchy and fretful. I don't know why this nastyness has occured, but if I am feeling triggered by the attitude then others definatly will be. Just something to bear in mind.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Re: Smacking - what do other parents do?

Thank you for that reminder, Phoenix.

This discussion is an important one but it did get a bit out of hand and I should not have permitted that to happen.

I have edited out the "personal exchanges" and references to them.

 

[foghlaim]

i was wondering if ye have a programme over there called "the nanny" or the super nanny,,
it about families that call in this super nanny when they feel that their children are out of control and they themselves can't figure out what to do to bring life back to where it should be... a calm loving environment.. the super nany shows the parents what they are doing wrong and makes suggestions\advice ect.. i loved watching it, even tho all mine are now grown up.

maybe it can be found on video tape or dvd??? it's an american programme. so it is maybe available over there??
well worth watching.

nsa