Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers

[David Baxter PhD]

I don't entirely disagree with Yuray, and I honestly think s/he is sincere in part.

I feel the same. I think Yuray was trying to make a very valid point (that victims need to extricate themselves from a situation which likely cannot be resolved any other way) but the way it is expressed makes it sound like he is attacking the victim for being a victim.

 

[Hermes]

Yes, David, that's it exactly. Sometimes the written word is just well, the written word, the black on white, and the writer's real sentiments cannot be evaluated or his/her expression and body language seen. I don't think this means any ill-intention, some are more blunt than others, and maybe that is no bad thing either.

Victims do need to extricate themselves, and I have met online and in 3D people who are in the "abuse-bind", and sometimes, heaven forgive me, it is hard to have patience with them. Well, you know the kind of thing: "so-and-so is really not so bad", or "s/he just needs a lot of love", or "I can save him/her" or "but I looovve him/her".

Best wishes
Hermes

 

[Jazzey]

Hermes,

I too find this thread extremely frustrating. Advice such as yours, IMHO are 'blanket' statements. This is why I initially responded that we need to be careful about a 'one size' fits all bandaid. Each individual has to make their own decisions according to their own pertinent facts. That's why I go to see a therapist - so that she may give me the objectivity I need to make decisions that are right for my specific circumstances at this particular time in my life.

I say this because both members and non-members come here looking for advice. Advice such as yours could be misconstrued to be 'blaming' for those adults who choose to find other solutions to their lives, given the context at that particular time.

Mine: A mother who is abusive and married to my dad who is in very bad health right now. I reserve the right not to feel guilty because I've chosen to stick around for my dad, with the proper boundaries in place to handle the current situation.

Again, I would never want to appear to give a 'one deal solution' (and one which seems so rigid in its parameters) for all of our various situations. IWBW has made decisions according to her particular needs at that time. Right now, she's focused on healing. This means a break from her abuser. I can respect that, and support her wholeheartedly in that healing. In that vein, as I would for any other member, I will support them given their specific needs at that time. I want to be pitied by anyone who hasn't experienced this first hand or even their sympathy, frankly.

And yes, yes, I know all about the macabre dynamics of the relationship, but there is now an immense amount of information out there in books and on the net as regards NPD. And yes, some people have more moxy (for want of a better word) than others. Personalities do differ.

"Macabre dynamics of the relationship"? No, I don't think so. Simply making the right decisions for oneself in a given set of circumstances. Nor is it about "moxy". It's about examining one's life closely, determining what you need or want and going from there. Having a narcissistic parent doesn't necessarily entail a complete break. It can and sometimes does entail setting boundaries with that parent, maybe even something as plain jane as 'civility'.

I agree, the NPD will never change its spots. As recipients of their behaviours, we can however set up proper boundaries without necessarily cutting everyone out of ones lives. We are talking about 'families', family units. And as they say, no man is an island. But, we can set up those relationships in the way that best suits our needs at the time.

What is the worst case scenario, one must ask? Has the N-mother got a financial hold of some kind, (in which case best not to even go there), or is the fear just so dire that it cannot be addressed.

Not in my particular circumstances. I've been independent for a very long time now. And no - not fear with respect to the N. It is possible to be a victim of abuse without projecting an image of weakness, fear. In fact, most of the abuse survivors that I know are fighters through and through. Myself included. I've learned from a very young age how to 'play the game' so to speak with the abuser, how to minimize or reduce the hurt that may come my way. My first memory of playing her - I was probably 5 or 6. Yup, I learned pretty darn quickly how to protect myself as much as I could. This image of the 'fearful' victim is stereotypical in my books.

Unless you think the N is going to actually kill you, or get someone else to do it (fear for one's life), it has to be analysed WHAT exactly causes the fear. Their stupid tantrums? Their reptilian gaze? Their crazy machinations? The N is a man/woman of straw, with nothing much inside. It is really like being scared of a scarecrow.

huh?

I did find both your comments and Yuray's a bit simplistic in its approach and somewhat judgmental (if not downright condescending) for those of us who are "living it".

 

[Hermes]

Sorry you see it like that, Jazzey. Could I just tell you (before you jump on me again) that yes, I have lived it. I am NOT judgmental, or condescending, and certainly not blaming. Unfortunately, maybe I am not saying what you want to hear. And I know full well that is common enough in the N-situation. It is extremely hard to come to terms with the fact that there could actually be a being such as the N, very hard. It breaks my heart to see people caught up in an abusive situation, and sorry, but boundaries are an impossibility where an N is concerned. Please do not talk about "civility" where an N is concerned. The word does not exist in their dictionary, no more than the word empathy, kindness, sincerity does. You, or anyone else, can be civil, sure, to an N. It is the same thing as being civil to your fridge or your washing machine. Same result. Nothing.

I am sorry your father is in ill health, truly. That is terrible, and he surely needs support. I did not say "cut everyone out of your life". Did I? You see, sometimes the solutions to these dilemmas ARE a lot simpler than one might think. Why would you cut your father out of your life? I am therefore assuming he cannot leave the N-situation either, cannot live elsewhere (with you, for example).

I have to make it clear that (programmed though we may be to think so) the family is not all. Sadly, quite the contrary, if we just look at statistics, abuse cases, murders.

Do you not think that life is about loving oneself, having self-respect, not playing games with the likes of an NPD (be it mother, spouse or anyone else)? Why play games at all? Less so with the "all-powerful" N. I am not talking about stereotypical fearful victims. Is there something wrong with life away from the N? I am asking sincerely.

Maybe it is an addiction. I don't know. After all an abuser cannot operate if he or she has not got someone to abuse. Yes?

Sorry you feel this way, Jazzey. I assure you that I am none of the things you say I am.

Hermes

 

[Yuray]

Right now, she's focused on healing. This means a break from her abuser

A break from her abuser while preparing for round 2?..... The essence of what I said that is there should be no compromise with an abuser either to placate them or yourself. It shouldn't be a give and take trade off based on abuse tolerance or comfort. That it is a trade off at times I understand. Fear and loss is a powerful motivator to keep one in limbo. We all underdstand that. No one is at fault for staying abused. I understand the cycle of abuse, but it can be broken. Breaking points to have to be arrived at before a choice is made. Its sad that breaking points sometimes take so long, and cost so much.

sometimes does entail setting boundaries with that parent, maybe even something as plain jane as 'civility'

Boundaries are good....they may lessen the impact of an NPD, as long as the boundaries are understood by all.......as for plain jane civility, an NPD does not have that quality as a requested trait to be honoured.

I agree, the NPD will never change its spots. As recipients of their behaviours, we can however set up proper boundaries without necessarily cutting everyone out of ones lives. We are talking about 'families', family units. And as they say, no man is an island. But, we can set up those relationships in the way that best suits our needs at the time.

No need to cut everyone out, unless they are sympathetic with the abuser. The abuser can be cut out of interaction by choice. Relationships with others can be maintained. This is clearly about taking sides with the abuser, or the abused. There isn't much wiggle room in between. Love and familiarity is no reason to broaden your shoulders for yet another load of abuse.

I've learned from a very young age how to 'play the game' so to speak with the abuser, how to minimize or reduce the hurt that may come my way.

You hit the nail on the head with this statement. You are no longer young. Games need not be played. Hurt no longer has to be minimized, it can be eradicated.

I did find both your comments and Yuray's a bit simplistic in its approach and somewhat judgmental (if not downright condescending) for those of us who are "living it".

The comments may be simplistic in summary, but not actuality or meaning. Judgemental they are not.


The seeming indifference I may appear to show is only in the black and whiteness of my words showing that options are available. That members and non members view this site for help can only be helped by seeing a dialogue like this taking place. It is an exchange of viewpoints, and talking is one of the things that allow people to arrive at decisions.

When people post in here, sometimes they require more than sympathy, solidarity, and platitudes to gain anything long term. Dr. Baxter has allowed my original post to remain. He was in disagreement with much that I said (or rather, HOW I said things), but the post was left for this very reason we are discussing now......"discussion"...

Recipients of an NPD's wrath are in my thoughts as I write this. They are not diminished in my sight. That inaction keeps them where they are, is not meant to mean they are inactive by choice. Far from it. They are prisoners in a relationship that they learned a long time ago, before the NPD was known as such to them, and before a working knowledge of NPD's was known to them. Thats some pretty heavy brain wiring to unravel.It can't be done overnight, or with a quick fix. My original post was to inform that the cycle of NPD abuse can be broken, NOT that the abused are too weak and are responsible for their affliction. There will come a time for change, or a movement in the right direction for change, when intolerance for being abused outwieghs the trade offs for love and familiarity. I don't have answers. There are those who are well paid to provide them, and they WILL provide them, if one will accept them, practise them, and believe them.


(on a lighter note........when I was proofreading this, i noticed all my references to the term "NPD" were actually written "NDP" .....for our American and other friends, 'NDP' is an acronym for the New Democratic Party........which may contain a certain amont of narcissism themselves!)

 

[Jazzey]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. Hermes - I wasn't 'jumping on you'. Rather, I'm just merely expressing my viewpoint on the matter. I don't expect you to 1) agree; 2) understand my viewpoint. It's mine and frankly, I don't need affirmation on my stance on the issue.

Yuray - I always appreciate your candour and directness. I love discussions, and the exchange of ideas. And, you're absolutely right, I am definitely no longer "young". But, I'm also entitled to my opinions on this matter. There is no black and white on the topic. We're each entitled to our opinion.

From my perspective, I can assure you that I'm not seeking 1) sympathy; 2) solidarity; and particularly not 3) platitudes. I was merely expressing my opinion on this particular topic, trying to keep an open perspective for those of us who are just starting the process. My process has been about 1 year in a half now. It was a long journey. I think we're all entitled to that journey without fear of judgment, recrimination or 'platitudes' from others.

The comments may be simplistic in summary, but not actuality or meaning. Judgmental they are not.

Ok. I'm not going to argue with you Yuray. You've heard what I've had to say. As with Hermes - we'll just agree to disagree.

While I'm definitely up for an open discussion it comes with the proviso that it has to occur with a reciprocated amount of respect and openness to the dialogue. Anything less is someone standing on their proverbial soap box trying to convince the other party of their position. That, I'm not in for. Personally, I found this thread to be dismissive and condescending to others who may be starting out in this journey. It's fine and dandy to talk about "what if's" - what if the person reading this thread is in the beginning of the journey. Can we offer them just a smidge more opportunity without judgment? A year ago, this thread would have been utterly discouraging for me personally. And, before you pounce on me for that one, I'm viewing this objectively - somewhere, sometimes, being supportive means recognizing that each situation is different. This is not about 'platitudes' or disengenuine support.

With respect to this particular thread, I won't be expressing my opinions anymore. I have listened and heard both yours and Hermes' opinions.

 

[Yuray]

I don't expect you to 1) agree; 2) understand my viewpoint. It's mine and frankly, I don't need affirmation on my stance on the issue.

This has very little to do with seeking agreement. Valid points have been raised, and its not a matter of agreeing, just acknowledging. I am sure Hermes and myself understand your situation, if not your viewpoint, and we are not trying to ask you to, or attempt to offer, affirmation. This is just, as you say, another viewpoint. From my view, agreeing to disagree isn't qualified here. I am not trying to put forth or solicit truth, just thoughts on the matter. Thoughts that may be of help to someone, if not you. This isn't a personal attack.

There is no black and white on the topic

There is a black and white on the topic. The black is to remain, and the white is to escape. The other 'colours' come in during the process of healing while escaping.

From my perspective, I can assure you that I'm not seeking 1) sympathy

I want to be pitied by anyone who hasn't experienced this first hand or even their sympathy, frankly.

I am not sure how to interpret these.

2) solidarity; and particularly not 3) platitudes

You have taken this out of context. I didn't say thats what people were seeking. I said that what people were getting in here. People come here looking for remedies, not others agreeing and identifying with their problem, although there is comfort in knowing one isn't alone and others can share in their pain by giving personal examples. Someone may read this and say to themself."he's right, I WILL do something...I WILL initiate a change...I CAN do this"
I doubt anyone will read it and say "he is SO wrong on this matter......I am now WORSE off for reading it". People in here are for the most part rational thinking adults who's perspective is at times distorted through no cause of their own. Mental Illness does not however stop words from being truthful and beneficial.

It's fine and dandy to talk about "what if's" - what if the person reading this thread is in the beginning of the journey. Can we offer them just a smidge more opportunity without judgment?

Nothing I or Hermes has said is a 'what if'....We have both made valid, (although not subliminal), points. The ultimate goal for anyone who sufffers at the hands of an NPD is to be free from the oppression. If someone is at the beginning of their healing journey, this thread is a "must read" to garner yet another slant on recovery. Proactiveness. It is not a mean thread, it offers something of great value......"GET OUT, however you can" " NPD's are killing your sprirt and quality of life" "You CAN do it". "It takes COURAGE and PAIN" "You CAN do it" I don't offer ways out, I don't know what they are, but others do.

There is no judgement on my part. People who suffer an NPD in their life are helpless by indoctrination, not choice. Its hard wired into them. But escape is possible, and rewarding.

While I'm definitely up for an open discussion it comes with the proviso that it has to occur with a reciprocated amount of respect and openness to the dialogue.

This dialogue is nothing but respect and openness and insight. Reciprocated respect does not mean capitulating to anothers view on a matter, only listening and responding politley without accusation.

With respect to this particular thread, I won't be expressing my opinions anymore. I have listened and heard both yours and Hermes' opinions.

I am sorry to hear that.


Now, for something I have never done, nor will I do it again. (commandeer a thread topic with my own personal hard luck story)

In the mid 1950's, when I was 4 or 5 I saw my father crying in the kitchen....I didn't know what it meant....I asked where mom was.....he looked at me and said 'she's gone'...I didn't understand this.....then he said she had left because I wouldn't behave......I started crying too.

I was shipped off to an elderly grandmother on a farm with my younger brother. She was a vicious woman. She is long dead, so is my mother and father. I survived to live a good life for the most part ( a few hiccups now and then), but my brother still suffers from her treatment. He hates them all. His life has, and still is, governed by the effects of being raised by an NPD's irrationality. I resolved my issues while all of them were alive, he didn't. He is still paying the price for inaction, and always will, until he dies. I know only too well what an NPD is, and I know that there can be life after living with one, without having to compromise.

There is truth in this thread at many levels, from many contributors. That all don't agree doesn't mean that any are wrong. Its a tough topic to handle.
Bottom line, there is life after NPD. Compromise isn't a life, its a continuation. There is professional help, and solutions. You are not alone.

 

[Hermes]

Thank you Yuray. I fully endorse your post. I uderstand only too well how fragile the NPD-fallout can make a person feel, so that everything begins to feel like an attack. Not to mention the fact that the toxicity of the NPD can stick to one like a horrible sludge.
You are sincere, Yuray, and I am sincere.
And yes, this thread is intended for all and any reading it, and certainly my post was not intended as any kind of an attack, blame, and I think that is clear enough from what I said.
I echo Yuray here. and say exactly the same thing
"There is no judgement on my part. People who suffer an NPD in their life are helpless by indoctrination, not choice. Its hard wired into them. But escape is possible, and rewarding. "
Yes, escape is possible, and very rewarding.

I wish I could express myself as well as you do, Yuray. Like you, I had a (professionally diagnosed) severe NPD in my life. No not parents. My parents were great people. And of course I could not believe it, and of course I wanted things to be "fixed", and I wept and wept and wept. I was fortunate in the sensible and supportive psych I had, and you know what (maybe he was wrong (!) to say it), he told me to get away and stay away. He did not beat about the bush. I lost much that was material in the process, but guess what, I gained my soul back, if you want to put it that way. I became "me" again. Nothing dire is going to happen because one extricates oneself from the N.

Yes, yes! Yuray. "Compromise isn't a life."

The toxic influence of the N makes one raw, and I do understand that, so much.

Best to everyone
Hermes

 

[Hermes]

Escaping From Your Narcissistic Family - Wellsphere

Excerpt:


""""This presents them with a way to leave their prison of childhood to openly explore their unique independent thinking and to separate from the narrow prism of their family's rigid, delusional values and beliefs.

Those who are raised in narcissistic families often spend a number of years working to heal from their deep psychological wounds. Many of them benefit from psychotherapy or other healing modalities. Besides physically leaving their narcissistic familes, the abused child works through the anger and loss connected with never having been loved and accepted Those who remain within these highly dysfunctional closed family circle will never grow up to become indivdiuals in their own right.



Those who have done the hard work of becoming individuated from the narcissistic family have escaped and reclaimed the life they were always meant to live

 

[Yuray]

Those who remain within these highly dysfunctional closed family circle will never grow up to become indivdiuals in their own right.

Exactly! This statement is the very essence of this whole discussion. Good find Hermes.

The flip side here is does the narcissist require compassion and understanding? Certainly no one would choose to be such a person. They are as well, for the most part, victims in a bizarre way. Taking satisfaction from causing discomfort in selected others belies another underlying current. What is the reward for causing grief? Obviously, a sense of power etc. Why the need for power? Again, an underlying current. This examination goes on and on, and somewhere a truth or reason may be found in defense of the narcissist's demaenour, but not so much their actions.

My answer.......a narcissist is a clever manipulative self serving person, with the abilty to think things through quite well to achieve their needs Therefore, with that ability of conivance and intelligence, their brain must also be able to comprehend the damage being done, yet ignore it. A narcissist seldom seeks help, for they are very seldom wrong or aware their actions are so ruthless. I don't know what kind of epiphany is necessary to awaken a narcissist, but if one was awakened, and sought help, I would do whatever i could to assist them. Although curing narcissism is not likely, behaviours can change. I have loved narcissists, and I have hated them, but, because narcissism is a disorder and not a choice, my hate cannot continue. Narcissism is a mental illness, and if one cannot be in the presence of mental illness without suffering, martyrdom and allegiance is NOT required, and neither is hatred.

Thats the flip side...........and not really a very digestable one for most.

 

[Hermes]

Yuray:

I know what you mean. I don't think a tiny child looks around and says "I am going to become NPD in order to make life a living hell for those near and dear to me". The causes of the disorder are subject to much discussion (nature/nurture/both).
I don't think a whole lot can be done, as far as I can tell. It seems that therapists and psychs are not too enthusiastic about "treating" NPD, and of course the N-disordered does not think there is anything wrong with them. A psychiatrist friend of mine put it like this:" They think the rest of the world is out of step with them; not the other way around". Yes.


No, there is no cure, only an attempt at "adaptation". The self is shattered, so difficult to build on that. Obviously I am speaking in simple terms.

The N-disordered can only feel well (very briefly) - a bit like a drug fix - by making the "other" miserable, again and again and again. How terrible, indeed, to be like that. It is hard to comprehend, and one's gorge rises against the very idea.

They are to be pitied, because they are in the thrall of a disorder, but no one is indeed required to lend allegiance or become a martyr at the N-stake.

Hermes

---------- Post added at 12:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------

Leaving Home: The Art of Separating From Your Difficult Family (Hardcover)
David P. Celani


""""Dr. David Celani meaningfully, forcefully, and poignantly confronts one of the most common pschyo-social issues of our time and of times past: the plight of the dysfunctional family and the attendant paradox of their offspring being unable to separate from them in adulthood to live their own lives. Dr. Celani beautifully addresses this problem and offers valuable guidelines for its sufferers. "

Why, after a childhood of emotional neglect and abuse, would a man move next door to the very parents who caused him pain? And how can a woman emerge from her mother's control in order to form healthy adult relationships?

Giving up family attachments that failed to meet our needs as children, David Celani argues, is the hardest psychological task an adult can undertake""

 

[Atlantean]

Hi, David. Interesting article. I am rally confused though. Around 9 months ago I underwent a psych evaluation and went my psychologist went over the results one of the things it said I had was NPD. I didnt really understand what that meant, but even my initial reaction was that it didnt apply. Reading this not only do the things you described not fit, but some are the opposite of how I feel, react, or behave.

Are there other types of NPD? What are your thoughts?

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Around 9 months ago I underwent a psych evaluation and went my psychologist went over the results one of the things it said I had was NPD. I didnt really understand what that meant, but even my initial reaction was that it didnt apply. Reading this not only do the things you described not fit, but some are the opposite of how I feel, react, or behave.

My first thought was an invalid or incompetent assessment. Did you by any chance complete a test called the Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory (MCMI)? What (other) tests do you remember doing? Describe them if you don't recall the names.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Thread split to http://forum.psychlinks.ca/narcissi.../23108-coping-with-a-narcissistic-mother.html

 

[SueW]

David,

I really believe what you are describing here is a psychopathic personality rather than narcissistic. I know there is not much difference but I do believe there is a difference. I often wonder if Western culture has a problem with labelling a mother as a psychopath.

As opposed to most narcissists, psychopaths are either unable or unwilling to control their impulses or to delay gratification. They use their rage to control people and manipulate them into submission.

From Narcissist vs. Psychopath: Merely Sources of Supply

Sue

 

[David Baxter PhD]

No, the article I posted is talking about Narcissistic Personality Disorder per DSM-IV-TR. Whether the two personality disorders will remain in DSM5 remains to be seen, however.

 

[SueW]

Ok I see what you mean; Psychopathy isn't a disorder only insofar as the latest DSM is concerned.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

True, though in the DMS psychopathy is subsumed under Antisocial Personality Disorder.

 

[SueW]

Hermes, Ever heard of Stockholm syndrome. That is the abuse bind you talk of. Please don't lose patience with those who have this but please don't collude either. You can accept how the person feels without colluding. I was in an abusive relationship; my mother was a psychopath (I would say psychopath others might say narcissist) and I too experienced the abuse-bind. I overcame it by being listened to and somebody accepting how I felt but without colluding.

Sue

 

[Frazzled]

I feel like you have just described my whole life in a few pages. This is exactly what my mother has been doing since I was old enough to remember. I was the scapegoat child of the daughters, three of us. I am stunned at how many parallels that are written here. Now if I can figure out the best route to take when it comes to communication with her without being drawn back in.

Frazzled