Not sure if I should do anything about this ...

[Darkside]

I put this in this particular section because it deals with a child and my ex-wife.

My middle son will be 20 years old this Sunday. He has Aspergers (moderately severe) and even though he is almost 20 I have continued to pay child support because he lives with his mom and is in school.

His grandparents gave him money when he was a child for college and it has grown to about $13,000.00. I found out last Friday that my ex-wife took it. I don't know all the details, but I know he voluntarily gave it to her because she told him she needed to "pay some bills." Around that time (January) she bought a brand new Honda CRV. ($38,000)

When I first found out I was really, really upset, but I've calmed down some now. The thing is, this was HIS money and she had no right to take it. I strongly suspect that she coerced him or bullied him until he agreed because he lives in her house and took advantage of his Aspergers. In addition to the car, she has spent thousands on clothes and trips for my daughter, but my son goes without. He doesn't drive, doesn't go anywhere, wears rags for clothes and she won't even take him to get a haircut. Now he won't be able to go back to college.

And it's not like she is poor. She makes a good salary as a 20 year teacher with a Masters Degree, and I pay monthly child support plus extra for medical bills, clothes and unexpected expenses for my children. Probably an extra $8,000 or more a year. Plus, I gave her a car for my children to drive last year.

He is coming up here for a month Saturday so I'll find out a bit more. But I have to say with her history (bounced checks, terrible credit, house in foreclosure) she will never pay the kid back. That money is gone ... forever!! Even if he didn't use it for school it was his, and he could have used it to start out in life.

What sort of person would do this? Is this anti-social or narcissistic behavior or is it just plain old selfishness? I should also say that this is completely typical behavior for her. She just has no sense of responsibility about money or the obligation to pay people back or even to just pay her bills.

Should I confront her about it ... report her to the police or just let it go and try to make it up to my son by letting him move here permanently? I've also thought about calling her mother, sister and brother ... as well as my older son to tell them what happened and what sort of person she is ... but I wonder if that is too extreme.

 

[forgetmenot]

to me what she has done is abuse just like elderly abuse where the child takes advantage of the fragility of their elderly parents taking their money Your ex has taken advantage of your sons illness and fragility and taken what was his inheritance really. I don't know if anything can be done but i would report it but first talk to your son ok see what exactly happened Yes she is selfish life is about her needs not her child I am sorry she took his chance of going back to college away. Maybe authorities could step in and make her garnish some of her earnings to a seperate acoount in his name until she pays him back

She should be made to pay your son back

 

[Darkside]

to me what she has done is abuse just like elderly abuse where the child takes advantage of the fragility of their elderly parents taking their money Your ex has taken advantage of your sons illness and fragility and taken what was his inheritance really. I don't know if anything can be done but i would report it but first talk to your son ok see what exactly happened Yes she is selfish life is about her needs not her child I am sorry she took his chance of going back to college away. Maybe authorities could step in and make her garnish some of her earnings to a seperate acoount in his name until she pays him back

She should be made to pay your son back

I didn't even think of it as abuse but you are right - that's what it is. After I talk to him (he is not going to want to do anything to his mom, but I know he wants out of there) I'll decide what to do. Maybe I can just report it to Social Services as abuse and neglect. At the very least they will probably say he can't go back which will solve 50% of the problem. Getting his money back and getting him healthy and to learn how to be on his own is the rest of it. I don't know that he will get his money back because she is always in debt over her head. I don't know how she can make a $400 a month car payment because she sure can't pay rent or a mortgage. Back when we were dating her power was turned off twice and I paid the bill for her. Talk about codependent!!

 

[rdw]

I would think hard about spreading her information around to her friends, family and children. My advice would be to look after your son when he stays with you and work towards having him live with you. Her problems with money are her problems and it will be up to her to face the consequences. By inserting yourself into this mess, you could make yourself the target of her anger and let her use it to make herself a victim. If you mention something I can already hear the drama beginning. Take a step back, take the high road and look after your son.

 

[Darkside]

I would think hard about spreading her information around to her friends, family and children. My advice would be to look after your son when he stays with you and work towards having him live with you. Her problems with money are her problems and it will be up to her to face the consequences. By inserting yourself into this mess, you could make yourself the target of her anger and let her use it to make herself a victim. If you mention something I can already hear the drama beginning. Take a step back, take the high road and look after your son.

Excellent advice and that is exactly what she will do. But $13,000 is a lot of money to lose like that. My thought was to embarrass and humiliate her so she will at least pay him back, but that would probably blow up in my face.

I've just finished reading some sources on abuse and neglect of elderly and handicapped persons. If you google the topic you can see what a widespread problem it has become. Almost every state has a task force looking into it. And its not just telemarketers - often family members are the culprit. If I do anything it will be to report this to Social Services. That way at least he will be free to stay with me.

 

[rdw]

Yes I agree that it is financial abuse but my caution would lie in the toothless ineffectiveness of children's services where I live. Should she have taken the money - of course not but you say yourself she won't pay him back. Her house of cards will crash soon enough - let it crash without your help. You want to stay as far away from this as possible . When your son comes buy him some nice clothes, get a haircut and have some fun. She's not worth any energy you expend on this problem

 

[forgetmenot]

I agree the most important thing to do is look after your son
Somehow get him the supports in place so he can live as independently as possible
Here there is a team that comes in to check on my daughter she lives on her own but with support from mental health team
Your son deserves that kind of care

 

[Retired]

My thought was to embarrass and humiliate her so she will at least pay him back, but that would probably blow up in my face.

Based on your description of your ex-wife's behaviour:

her history (bounced checks, terrible credit, house in foreclosure)....she is always in debt over her head. I don't know how she can make a $400 a month car payment because she sure can't pay rent or a mortgage. Back when we were dating her power was turned off twice and I paid the bill for her..........she has spent thousands on clothes and trips for my daughter, but my son goes without. He doesn't drive, doesn't go anywhere, wears rags for clothes and she won't even take him to get a haircut

in my view, screams of a person who is financially and morally irresponsible who manipulates others for her own benefit.

It is also a betrayal of trust by an adult who should be looking out for the best interests of your son whose capacity for making sound planning decisions may be compromised because of his Asperger's diagnosis.

This is the same kind of betrayal of trust, in my view, as an adult who sexually abuses a child. The adult, the authority figure, exerts their power over a vulnerable person for their own self gratification.

My advice would be to investigate your legal options, in order to place your son's assets in some kind of trust with very strict rules of access. I would also take legal action to recover the money taken from your son in the form of a lien against your wife's property.

This kind of behaviour against a vulnerable person is inexcusable in my view and needs to be dealt with for the benefit and long term safety of your son.

 

[forgetmenot]

Can you not become your sons trustee or get someone to be his trustee over his money so no one else can take advantage of him

 

[Darkside]

Based on your description of your ex-wife's behaviour:



in my view, screams of a person who is financially and morally irresponsible who manipulates others for her own benefit.

It is also a betrayal of trust by an adult who should be looking out for the best interests of your son whose capacity for making sound planning decisions may be compromised because of his Asperger's diagnosis.

This is the same kind of betrayal of trust, in my view, as an adult who sexually abuses a child. The adult, the authority figure, exerts their power over a vulnerable person for their own self gratification.

My advice would be to investigate your legal options, in order to place your son's assets in some kind of trust with very strict rules of access. I would also take legal action to recover the money taken from your son in the form of a lien against your wife's property.

This kind of behaviour against a vulnerable person is inexcusable in my view and needs to be dealt with for the benefit and long term safety of your son.

Thanks Steve. I agree with all of this, but don't you agree in part with RDW? If I go after her by reporting her or talking to family members don't I risk making it worse for my son, and my daughter who is still in the home with her? (She can't do anything to me that she has not done already.) I'm worried that I may be acting out my own little drama if I take that route.

As far as a trust is concerned it is too late. The money is gone -- all of it. She took every last dime. I also found out that she takes his Christmas and birthday money (He gets several hundred dollars from his grandparents and from me for birthday and Christmas.) which she tells him she needs to buy groceries. She has made him a kind of caretaker and responsible for the family's well being to cover up her own irresponsibility. I don't think I have to say how much that burns me up inside.

But I believe that RDW is right too - at least insofar as my own motivation or attitude. My gut is telling me to find ways to strike out at her -- to victimize her for victimizing my son. So I think contacting family members and friends would be over the top and it would probably just give her a chance to portray herself as a victim. (I don't care what she tells her friends about me.)

I read for several hours last night and today about teaching children emotional intelligence (Gottman) and about the victim-persecutor-rescuer triangle in family dynamics. (Karpman) I've done enough persecuting, rescuing and being a victim over my lifetime and don't want to do it anymore.

Matt needs me to be his dad and that's what I am going to try and do. Teach him to think and live independently. It might take a few years to undo the damage she has done to him. Maybe a lot longer.

What I may do is to calmly ask her how and when she intends to pay him back. If she blows up, denies or refuses then my son will have to decide what he wants to do. It is his money. If he wants to pursue legal means to get his money back I will support him, but if he does not I will support that too. But I will stress to him that it was "wrong" of her to take his money to use for herself, his step-father and his sister. It is legally wrong, but it is also morally and spiritually wrong.

I understand that he could not stand up to her. Not sure I could in that situation when I was 19 years old - much less with Aspergers.

 

[Retired]

I agree with all of this, but don't you agree in part with RDW?

I can see RDW's point but I see a young man with Asperger's who is being exploited.

I happen to know a man with Asperger's who was not provided adequate training when he was young, pretty much shielded from the world, who is now in his fifties, whose parents have deceased and all relevant family unable to help. He is unable to manage any incoming finances and is exploited by unscrupulous strangers who see a easy mark.

Seeing what can happen to a person in later life who is diagnosed with Asperger's, who is unprepared to navigate the world, perhaps unable to recognize potential threats and who has not been provided necessary legal safeguards to protect his assets, I would submit that those who have his best interests at heart should look at ways to protect a young person in this situation while the opportunity is still possible.

Perhaps there are complications due to custody and his age of majority, and this would have to be worked out with competent legal advice.

If your son is living in an environment where he is being exploited now, what possible future does he have to be able to accumulate any assets, and more importantly, what example is he learning about how people should be dealing with him?

How has your son's ability to interact socially evolved since you expressed some concerns back in 2012?

 

[Darkside]

I can see RDW's point but I see a young man with Asperger's who is being exploited.

I happen to know a man with Asperger's who was not provided adequate training when he was young, pretty much shielded from the world, who is now in his fifties, whose parents have deceased and all relevant family unable to help. He is unable to manage any incoming finances and is exploited by unscrupulous strangers who see a easy mark.

Seeing what can happen to a person in later life who is diagnosed with Asperger's, who is unprepared to navigate the world, perhaps unable to recognize potential threats and who has not been provided necessary legal safeguards to protect his assets, I would submit that those who have his best interests at heart should look at ways to protect a young person in this situation while the opportunity is still possible.

Perhaps there are complications due to custody and his age of majority, and this would have to be worked out with competent legal advice.

If your son is living in an environment where he is being exploited now, what possible future does he have to be able to accumulate any assets, and more importantly, what example is he learning about how people should be dealing with him?

How has your son's ability to interact socially evolved since you expressed some concerns back in 2012?

It has not improved and is very likely worse than it was 2 years ago.

I share your thoughts and this entire thing is heartbreaking for me personally. I feel a lot of guilt because I left my children in this situation when I divorced their mother. I just wasn't strong enough to fight her for custody. In the end it was all I could do to get out of there myself. Honestly, I lived in denial of what was happening to them for the better part of 6 years, but over the last 3 or 4 years I have begun to see things for what they really are.

It's hard to describe how mild mannered and passive he is and its not all from Aspergers. But I know he wants a better life for himself because he has told me. He even sent me a text message a little while ago about how he wanted to start getting some exercise.

I pick him up tomorrow and bring him to my house. After he gets comfortable living here I will talk to him about making this a permanent move. Then we'll talk about what do about his money. I just want to make sure that whatever I do is not motivated by vindictiveness or perhaps guilt.

 

[Retired]

I just want to make sure that whatever I do is not motivated by vindictiveness or perhaps guilt.

The way I understand the situation, from your description, is that you recognize your son is not getting the best foundation for an independent and productive life, and you want to provide him with that environment...that's not guilt, that is a Father's dedication to his Son, in my view.

On the other hand, to ensure the situation is not inflamed with vindictive drama, I believe your well being, and your son's attitudes toward you would benefit by not trashing Mom in conversations about why you are proposing he live with you. In the long run, I believe your son will have greater respect for you if you take the high road when discussing Mom.

What are the chances of your seeking legal advice with regard to ensuring a smooth transition in the move, as well as making arrangements for your son's future protection. You might also want to investigate your legal options to retrieve the "loan" your son made to Mom.

 

[Darkside]

The way I understand the situation, from your description, is that you recognize your son is not getting the best foundation for an independent and productive life, and you want to provide him with that environment...that's not guilt, that is a Father's dedication to his Son, in my view.

Thanks, I needed to hear that.

On the other hand, to ensure the situation is not inflamed with vindictive drama, I believe your well being, and your son's attitudes toward you would benefit by not trashing Mom in conversations about why you are proposing he live with you. In the long run, I believe your son will have greater respect for you if you take the high road when discussing Mom.

What are the chances of your seeking legal advice with regard to ensuring a smooth transition in the move, as well as making arrangements for your son's future protection. You might also want to investigate your legal options to retrieve the "loan" your son made to Mom.

I am a lawyer, but I don't do family law. But I have friends in the profession I can call on for some help once I get to that point. I am hopeful that he can learn to recognize when people are taking advantage of him and learn to set boundaries. But it's going to take some time. He is going to have a hard time telling his mom no.

 

[rdw]

Have you thought about opening a joint back account with your son? That would prevent his mother from accessing his money. You could deposit Christmas and birthday money in there and he could use that when he spends time with you. It is very important to teach him responsible spending and how to protect himself from fraudsters both inside and outside of the family. Best of luck - sounds like living with you would be a great step forward for him.

 

[Darkside]

Have you thought about opening a joint back account with your son? That would prevent his mother from accessing his money. You could deposit Christmas and birthday money in there and he could use that when he spends time with you. It is very important to teach him responsible spending and how to protect himself from fraudsters both inside and outside of the family. Best of luck - sounds like living with you would be a great step forward for him.

As far as I know she didn't access his account herself, but rather she just asked him for the money and he wrote her a check or they went to the bank and withdrew it. Even if I were on the account it wouldn't require both of our signatures. But you are right in that at least I could monitor it and she would think twice about taking money from an account with my name on it.

I will know more later today, but what I've pieced together is this. The money was in a minor's account (UGMA) and invested in mutual funds. When he turned 18 the brokerage firm sent a notice saying it had to be converted to a regular account. My son didn't do anything about it for a year and then this past January he signed the forms and they were sent to the broker to convert the account, sell his investments and then she had him withdraw the cash. Or, they may have sold the investments and just sent a check for the proceeds which my son endorsed over to her. I just don't know how it went down yet.

This is a form of larceny or larceny by conversion, but it is not specifically a crime unless there was an intent to steal. Yes, she took advantage of him because of his Aspergers, and yes there is little difference in this situation and a family member taking from an elderly parent. Her defense will be that he gave it to her and my son will never say otherwise.

It's despicable isn't it!

---------- Post Merged at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:12 AM ----------

I just read the law in my state with regard to adult abuse.

It defines a vulnerable adult as:

(11) "Vulnerable adult" means a person eighteen years of age or older who has a physical or mental condition which substantially impairs the person from adequately providing for his or her own care or protection. This includes a person who is impaired in the ability to adequately provide for the person's own care or protection because of the infirmities of aging including, but not limited to, organic brain damage, advanced age, and physical, mental, or emotional dysfunction. A resident of a facility is a vulnerable adult.

 

[rdw]

Gosh I've seen cases like this before - it's always about the money. Currently we have a young gal living with us who qualifies for funding due to severe depression . I'm the co-signor on her bank account and monitor it closely. Is she able to say no to her family - no but I am. She can take money out on her own but she has a note book to write down expenditures. We've set a budget together and she's pretty frugal when it comes to spending on herself. Sad to say she can't go to her family's place with more than twenty dollars in her pocket or it gets taken for beer and cigarettes. I do take money for room and board out of her funding and that's tucked away in my account - savings for college. I make sure that 10 percent goes into savings and that is not accessible by bank card. It's definitely a work in progress but it's coming.
Good luck with your son - I hope you are able to help him with his finances. And frankly if your ex wife has ripped off your son, she will have ripped off her parents and other family members too. You just may never hear about that...

 

[Retired]

but it is not specifically a crime unless there was an intent to steal.

Obviously we are not qualified to give legal advice, but could an argument be made that the money was not a voluntary gift, but rather a loan requiring repayment. If repayment cannot be made immediately then a lien against the ex wife's earnings, property and estate might be filed.

I suppose a joint account might be one way, but joint a account with a vulnerable person can also be exploited, especially if the responsible person becomes unavailable, as in the case of a parent predeceasing the vulnerable child, leaving the child vulnerable to unscrupulous interests.

I was thinking of a trust, managed by an independent third party with specific rules of disposition of funds, in order to preserve his capital. This requires tax and estate planning for your son, as you well know, but in light of the family situation, this might be the time to initiate some form of protection for him.

Though his assets may not be significant at this time, he may qualify for future earnings, subsidies, endowments and ultimately inheritance(s).

Setting up a trust proactively can ensure his security for the future when Dad may not be available.

 

[Darkside]

We drove back for 3 hours today and talked about this. I probably pushed too hard and got some push back from him. He says that he trusts his mom, that she took the money to keep him from spending it, is holding it in her account and only used a little to help with "bills", the car, and my daughter's pageant. (7 days in Daytona) Then he goes on to say that they can't afford his prescriptions, he didn't eat breakfast or lunch, and they are out of toilet paper in the house. He even said his mom warned him not to talk to me about the money or I would take her "to court." He said he told his mom, "my dad wouldn't do that and if he did I would never speak to him again." He then looked at me and said, "you are not going to take her to court are you? I tried to be non-committal but I pointed out the inconsistencies in her story. How is it that all that money is being spent on his sister and a new car and yet she can't pay the mortgage, there is no money to fill his prescriptions, take him to the doctor or for a haircut. He didn't see the contradiction and kept repeating, "I trust my mom, and she will pay me back." He also said he didn't care what is was used for if it meant the money was being spent to help them survive.

 

[rdw]

So obviously you will have to proceed with caution and approach the issue of money with your son in a positive manner. Taking your ex wife to court sounds like a losing proposition to me. Is it possible to set up an automatic debit or payment with a pharmacy where he lives for his medication? I'd look for simple easy to work with solution for your son with a focus on budgeting and promoting self sufficiency rather than discussing what mother has done. What's done is done and now you have to be on top of your game to ensure your sons financial well being. Good luck!