Why do I do this to myself?

[gooblax]

I've returned to my empty/tired mood, where the main thing I want to do is nothing without thinking (so no intentionally repeated self-insults at the moment). I've been reading David Burns' book, and some of it seems like it would be quite helpful IF I'd try it. I've sort of tried to try... which makes little sense. For example, I have difficulty with the exercise of identifying 'thinking errors' and making a rebuttal, because often my following thought will be "it doesn't matter, I'm crap," and I won't continue from there. (Or I'll get to "What is it about me that brings me to that conclusion - everything, I'm rubbish rubbish rubbish," and that will be the end of that.) After that, I have no desire to attempt to do anything about it.

Another of the hardest things about it for me, is attempting to ignore emotion while still trying to help myself. I was so used to ignoring emotion, but by dismissing everything. Then I started trying to identify emotions... So now I notice them but am supposed to ignore them without berating myself for having them...? I dunno, it's in conflict with everything that I know how to do.

Don't worry, I'm really not expecting any sort of reply - I know you're all bored of this whinging. Unfortunately for all, I feel the desire to post this rubbish regardless. Sorry.

 

[forgetremember]

Don't worry, I'm really not expecting any sort of reply - I know you're all bored of this whinging. Unfortunately for all, I feel the desire to post this rubbish regardless. Sorry.

Hey Gooblax, don't apologize for venting, that's a good thing. I can whine and dine too.

Blessings,

Jos?e

 

[Into The Light]

well, you are trying, and that's definitely a step in the right direction. i'm proud of you for doing it! :yahoo:

these exercises aren't easy at first, and it takes some time and practice to get the hang of them. the trickiest part is when you start to try and then you hit a point where you think it's pointless, and then you stop. that is the biggest challenge and you are just going to have to work to make yourself try anyway. i had help from a therapist when i was trying to do this stuff so it might be something you want to work on together if you aren't already. speaking of which, how is therapy going for you?

 

[gooblax]

Hmm. Thanks guys.

I still don't understand what my therapist thinks I'm supposed to be getting out of my sessions with her. She doesn't do CBT so I'm reluctant to mention it. The main thing she seems to be concerned about is how my studies are going - essentially, if I can get that back in order, then not much else matters. Anyway, my mum says that she won't pay for therapy after the reimbursement ends in about 4 weeks time. *shrug*

 

[Into The Light]

what kind of a therapist is your therapist? is she a psychologist, social worker, or something else?

when you say she doesn't do cbt, do you mean she isn't doing it with you, or it's something she doesn't offer?

have you told her you do not know what she thinks you're supposed to get out of it all? that you feel that the focus is in the wrong place, on your studies rather than on your depression? i think you mentioned a week or two ago that everyone was going to see how you felt in two weeks time before revisiting the medication issue, has it been revisited?

gooblax, i think it is really important that you are honest with yourself about how you are feeling and that you are honest with your parents, your doctor, and your therapist. you cannot get the proper help if you don't communicate with them. if you feel therapy isn't working because the focus is in the wrong place, you need to tell your therapist. otherwise you just won't be getting any better. these people are there to help you, and they need to know if what they're doing is effective.

 

[gooblax]

My therapist is a psychologist. She does psychodynamic therapy (something about identifying unconscious motivations...), but I don't know how that's supposed to help, really. I think if I paid more attention, I'd be more likely to actually remember what she said each time. I don't know if she offers CBT. I guess I should just ask, but... I dunno.

have you told her you do not know what she thinks you're supposed to get out of it all?

Nope, I haven't. I probably should... but again, I dunno.

The focus of our sessions isn't on my study, presuming that there is a focus... I'm not quite sure what it is on, since I tend to forget most of it. (Yes, that's how great I am in verbal communication - I don't remember any details of what is said.) But what I meant was from my therapist's statement that her main concerns with me are the possible suicide risk and the effect that stuff will have on my end-of-year mark at school. I won't be attempting the former, so the only concern is the latter. So really, if I make a decent effort to study and get decent marks, the rest is irrelevant.

i think you mentioned a week or two ago that everyone was going to see how you felt in two weeks time before revisiting the medication issue, has it been revisited?

Yeah, my mum is still against it. She would rather I tried exercise, different diet, "more vitamins," more family activities, more socialising, St John's wort, going back to a naturopath, or having another thyroid test (at a different pathology) before medication. I still wonder if any of my whinging is valid or truthful (or if I'm just making the whole thing up), so I'm disinclined to consider medication.

Being honest requires one to acknowledge and express one's perception of the 'truth', does it not? However, if one cannot be sure of the quality of one's own perceptions - if they can't even identify the subjective truth for themselves - honesty becomes impossible.

If I'm attempting to be honest about this, I don't know how I'm feeling, I don't know if it's any worse or better than how others normally feel, sometimes I don't know if it is any worse or better than I used to feel, and how I feel changes so I can't even identify it properly. I don't know if I'm lying about how I'm feeling for attention.

But I do know that I probably should never have said a word about it. I do know that I'm seeking comfort from people who are unable or unwilling to give it (because I simply don't have that kind of relationship with them), and that I don't feel anything (other than irritation) about comfort from those who are able or willing to give it (family or friends). And I think I should just shut up and accept things for how they are.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Yeah, my mum is still against it. She would rather I tried exercise, different diet, "more vitamins," more family activities, more socialising, St John's wort, going back to a naturopath, or having another thyroid test (at a different pathology) before medication. I still wonder if any of my whinging is valid or truthful (or if I'm just making the whole thing up), so I'm disinclined to consider medication.

1. you could talk to your psychologist about this and get some input there to pass on to your mother; or

2. you could print out some of the articles here (Alternative Medicine and Alternative Therapies forum) about how many of these home remedies are ineffective and/or dangerous.

 

[Into The Light]

So really, if I make a decent effort to study and get decent marks, the rest is irrelevant.

i disagree. school and marks are important, however, if you were to obtain the decent marks, would that magically fix everything else for you?

 

[gooblax]

Of course it wouldn't "fix" things, but the things themselves must be irrelevant. We're not even sure that there's anything to fix (other than this whinging itself). I'm not nearly as important as I might like to think I am, so what does it matter if there are things affecting me that aren't going so great (things that I should be able to rectify)?

Thanks Dr Baxter - I'll take a look at some of the articles and see if I want to show them to my mum (though I don't know what I hope that will achieve).

But yeah, I really don't know what to do. It's like there's everything and nothing to do, at the same time. At least there might be a purpose if there was some consistency. I dunno... *sigh*

**** it. We’ve been through this: I shouldn’t be saying anything or whinging about anything when I have nothing to complain about! So why am I even typing? Why won't I just shut up? Damn.
I’m crap, so for your own sake, please don’t listen to me.

 

[gooblax]

I'd like to make yet another apology for my immature behaviour. I know I often say stupid things, and I'm sorry about all of them.

Thanks everyone for your help. It was great meeting you guys.

 

[Mari]

I know I often say stupid things

I can relate to that gooblax - I could fill a book with stupid things I have said. Why do I focus on the stupid things I have said so much? Other people say dumb things but seem to just brush them off and not even care. The best I can say is that I am a 'highly sensitive person' as mentioned in another section of this forum. I apologize when I can although I do not think you need to keep apologizing. The people here are not here to judge you but to offer any help they can. This forum has so far been a great help for me. I like the mood manager because it helps me focus on how I am really feeling - it puts a stop to some of the confusion and the constant thinking and worrying about everything. My song for today is 'Over and Over' by Nana Mouskouri, not because it is real for me but because it offers hope that things can and will be better. Please do not give up - rest a bit and then try again. :heart: Mari

 

[Into The Light]

We're not even sure that there's anything to fix

of course there's something to fix. you're miserable. you talk down to yourself. you feel like you deserve punishment. you're lonely. you feel unloved. those are major things. they need to be fixed.

 

[gooblax]

It doesn't matter to anyone other than myself whether I feel miserable or not, so there's no real necessity to fix any of that. Sure, it would be nice to change that, but I should be able to put up with it. There are millions of people who have more serious 'stuff' - they need the help before I do. I feel guilty for not having to suffer when so many others, who are better people than I, do.

The biggest problem (for me) with the stupidest things that I say is that they occur at a time when I really want help/support, but are counter-productive to that cause. For example, if I'm feeling lonely and really want someone to talk to, I'll say that no one should talk to me because I'm boring/annoying/(any other appropriate adjective), I don't deserve to have anyone to talk to, no one would want to talk to me etc. (things that I believe). Resultantly, people do not speak to me (wow I wonder why!) and become offended. If I don't say these things, then I believe them regardless - I'll avoid speaking to prevent myself from saying them and because I don't think I should bother people. And by "speaking," I mean "typing," not that I have anything interesting to say in either sense. The result of attempting to challenge the thoughts as per cognitive therapy is "Doesn't matter," and return to moping.

Each time I write a post on a forum such as this, I wonder if I really should post it. Should I annoy others with my whinging about nothing? How many more chances are people going to give me before they decide to ignore me? Is it better to anticipate that result and not say anything? If I put the time that I spend complaining into study, then at least that would be one less thing to feel guilty about. My teachers think I'm "bored." I rarely feel bored, just can't make myself concentrate. But I can't even start to explain that to them; I just put on a nervous little smile and say "something like that," to everything they say.

But yes, there goes another set of ramblings that people don't want to know about.
Thanks for replying Mari and Ladybug. It's appreciated.

 

[Into The Light]

It doesn't matter to anyone other than myself whether I feel miserable or not, so there's no real necessity to fix any of that.

so it doesn't count if it seemingly doesn't matter to others? you're the one that has to live with your thoughts and feelings. this is YOUR life.

i'd like to point out that it matters to me whether you are miserable or not. i may be a total stranger but the thing is, i've lived through depression and i believe 110% that no one should have to suffer that. i want others to be spared that pain, and that includes you.

Sure, it would be nice to change that, but I should be able to put up with it. There are millions of people who have more serious 'stuff' - they need the help before I do.

by this logic that would mean that i don't deserve help with some of the issues i am still struggling with, because i know that i am definitely feeling a whole heck of a lot better about myself than you are feeling about you.

I feel guilty for not having to suffer when so many others, who are better people than I, do.

you have this belief that some people are better than others. what criteria do you go by?

would you feel better if you actually suffered as badly as some people do? what about people who aren't suffering as much as you? or aren't at all? do they deserve to feel miserable? do you see how you are applying one set of rules to the rest of the world and another to yourself?

The biggest problem (for me) with the stupidest things that I say is that they occur at a time when I really want help/support, but are counter-productive to that cause. For example, if I'm feeling lonely and really want someone to talk to, I'll say that no one should talk to me because I'm boring/annoying/(any other appropriate adjective), I don't deserve to have anyone to talk to, no one would want to talk to me etc. (things that I believe). Resultantly, people do not speak to me (wow I wonder why!) and become offended. If I don't say these things, then I believe them regardless - I'll avoid speaking to prevent myself from saying them and because I don't think I should bother people. And by "speaking," I mean "typing," not that I have anything interesting to say in either sense. The result of attempting to challenge the thoughts as per cognitive therapy is "Doesn't matter," and return to moping.

yes, this is the classic push and pull. i was lonely and wanted support but at the same time i was pushing everyone away. what helped me was this forum because i could turn it on and off whenever i wanted to. i could keep my distance from people in real life yet still connect to other human beings through here.

Each time I write a post on a forum such as this, I wonder if I really should post it. Should I annoy others with my whinging about nothing?

you are making assumptions that you are annoying us. you are minimizing things by saying it's all nothing. it's not all nothing. if it were nothing, there'd be no issue and you wouldn't be running all this stuff through your mind.

How many more chances are people going to give me before they decide to ignore me?

you aren't being ignored. however, sometimes i find i kind of hit a brick wall with your posts because things are worded in such a way that there's nothing more to be added to the discussion.

Is it better to anticipate that result and not say anything?

no, because you just do not know what the result will be.

If I put the time that I spend complaining into study, then at least that would be one less thing to feel guilty about. My teachers think I'm "bored." I rarely feel bored, just can't make myself concentrate. But I can't even start to explain that to them; I just put on a nervous little smile and say "something like that," to everything they say.

i don't think you are complaining, i think you are struggling and you're trying to find a way out of what you're going through.

But yes, there goes another set of ramblings that people don't want to know about.

again an assumption you make. just because you think this doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

Thanks for replying Mari and Ladybug. It's appreciated.

we're here to help you, any time. :hug:

 

[gooblax]

Thanks ladybug. *hugs*

Here's just a little unusual analogy-type-thing to explain my view of things:

When results violate existing theories that scientists are particularly convinced in, they make the results fit or create an exception. One example -because they firmly believed in the law of conservation of energy, they 'invented' a particle (neutrino) to account for the loss of mass in radioactive decay and waited years to discover proof for it. Why shouldn't individuals do similarly? I do understand that the law of conservation of energy has been extensively tested and proven correct in all cases (as long as we acknowledge the energy-momentum relationship and pretend to accept the theoretical physicists' assertions that "that's how it is, and if you don't understand, then you don't need to") so it's not quite the same, but it will do for comparison.

In my situation, I may as well state that the "Gooblax Principle" applies, and following example, fail to explain it concisely to others. It may not appear to hold up against all the available evidence, but the conclusion is that the individual named as such is not a decent person and doesn't really deserve to be happy.

Essentially, I'm attempting to say that I'm aware that a reasonable amount of my thoughts/beliefs/assumptions may be fallacious, but as long as the Gooblax Principle is in effect, I'm inclined to believe that they are true simply because the Gooblax Principle says that they are. If I have to invent a new particle to hold with the Principle, then abolish it in another scenario, the Principle doesn't mind. Yes, I would make a lousy scientist! I wish I knew how to disprove it rather than just try to pretend that it's not there. But that's the thing - it's not entirely based on evidence so can't be disproved for me with evidence (even when it has been).

I dunno, maybe I'm being too analytical about this. I won't give my Gooblax Principle-based responses to your questions ladybug, if that's okay with you (after all, they're bound to be just as illogical). I suppose this might be another of those 'brick wall' posts (I'll need to learn to avoid those). At least I had fun with the scientific comparison (though unfortunately, it reminds me of a discussion I used to participate in; the conclusion of which still brings unpleasant feelings). Anyway, I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on all that, whatever those thoughts may be.

 

[Into The Light]

that's certainly a very interesting analogy you've made. i'm rather impressed

this is definitely not a brick wall post, and i'm glad you've made it.

i think the difference here between the scientist approach and the gooblax principle is this. with the scientist approach, it's not just one person - it's everyone who's specialized in that field who put their heads together, and they all come to the same conclusion - that more than likely there is a particle we don't have evidence for. it's not just one person who has this thought - it's something everyone has agreed on, simply because it seems to be the most logical explanation.

the gooblax principle is flawed because it is only you who believes in it. your logic is flawed and your thinking is illogical. the trouble is, you can't see it, because you are basing your thinking on your feelings. you FEEL you're no good, worthless, deserving of misery, but objectively, there is no valid argument for this. objectively, you are a very intelligent young lady, and you are more concerned about others than about yourself. your view is obstructed, and everyone around you can see that but you.

the evidence that you are not all those awful things you claim to be IS there, it's just a matter of you being able to look beyond those blinders you have on. it's hard work but i can assure you the evidence is there. we just need to find a way for you to be able to see it. maybe the whole scientific comparison would help you better than all this abstract talk i may have been giving you. i encourage you to write from the analytical/scientific perspective and this might actually be a better form in which we can help you see the evidence you need to see.

i hope this all makes sense to you, if not, let me know

 

[gooblax]

Okay, I can see the difference between the scientists and myself in terms of number of people, but how about qualifications? Technically, an individual should be at least as qualified to make judgements about themselves, as scientists are to make judgements about things they cannot see (and at that time [1931] couldn't detect). There is only one person who is an expert on a particular person, and that's themselves.

I can only sometimes pull off the scientific comparisons - it really depends upon my mood (I was quite lucky yesterday). At the moment, it's not so good. *shrug*

Thanks ladybug.

 

[Into The Light]

Technically, an individual should be at least as qualified to make judgements about themselves, as scientists are to make judgements about things they cannot see (and at that time [1931] couldn't detect). There is only one person who is an expert on a particular person, and that's themselves.

i agree, the one expert on any given person is the person him or herself. the trouble is, when it comes to ourselves our views can become limited or distorted. to make an attempt at a scientific analogy - and this may be totally useless because i'm not so very scientifically minded - take this example.

you can examine something under a microscope. this microscope basically gives you a zoomed in view. you can see cells and microbes and all kinds of crazy stuff. it's all very interesting - but you are so close to those cells that you cannot see what these cells altogether make up. only if you are able to zoom out can you see that all these cells together become a leaf, or something else. if your microscope's zooming out capability is broken, you are only focused on the detail and unable to see the big picture.

the other possibility is, you might have a bad lens in the microscope. the lens distorts what you see. it may shape those cells into something they are not. your observations then are invalid, but you do not know it, because you do not know your lens is bad. or, you may not want to admit your lens is bad, because then you have to go out and spend money on a new one. or you have to admit that all the work you did is invalid, because of the bad lens, but then that would mean you'd have to start over again, and redo the work. admitting that there is a problem with the lens means having to deal with other scenarios you might not be prepared to deal with. it then becomes easier to say, "my lens is just fine!", and to come up with all the rationalizations of why.

in your case, i see your zooming-out capability isn't working very well, and i see you have a bad lens in your microscope.

i hope this analogy makes some sense to you.

 

[gooblax]

Yeah, that makes sense, thanks.

How are you doing?

 

[Into The Light]

i'm doing ok, just seem to be feeling the symptoms of depression a bit, only mildly though. i'm sure i'll bounce back again in a day or two. how about you? are these posts helping you at all?