David Baxter PhD
Late Founder
My point was that you are being insensitive to your sister.
- Thread starter forgetmenot
- Start date
Ashley-Kate
MVP
it is very important to know that we all have our ways of dealing with issues, sometimes big sometimes small breaking a nail to one person can be nothing yet to another can be a very painfull thing to deal with not that it is anything like losing someone but the example i chose it that lets say for a second that this is a story you are reading of two sisters who lose their brother he passes away, the reason not that important really lets just say he dies, the both sisters go into therapie one feels better or feels she doesn't need therapie after 4 months and decides to end just because she feels that she doesn't need help anymore to overcome her pain doesn'T mean that her sister should stop as well. In my familly i have went past the death of my uncle, yet my sister has a hard time hearing his name looking at movies or picture with him in it or talking about the way he died. We respect her because she is still after 8 years unable to accept his death and the disease that caused his psychosis, you may feel that you need to stop talking about it put it in your past, you should not impose how you feel upon your family because that would not be protecting them it would be enabling them to remain in a morning state that they are maybe ready to leave.
yours truly ash
yours truly ash
There is never any time frame for dealing with things. Calling her pain nonsense is insensitive Mary.
The past is always somewhere deep inside our minds. No matter if you think you are not "dwelling" on it, it still influences the present.
If only it were this easy. I am sure you know it isn't.
Your sister still needs to mourn. This may not be possable for her to do to "talk just postive thoughts only" we all have our weak moments and we are intitled to them.
I try to be postive and there are even times where I have to talk about things before getting to see my Psychiatrist.
A Psychiatrist or Psychologist can teach you ways to cope.
Personally I am not able to dreadge up my past either at this point. So now we are focusing on coping skills. There are all different aproaches to therapy.
Hi Mary,
When I posted to you, I was more referring to the past of sexual abuse and which I think is still at the heart of all of your pain. Just as your daughter is suffering from what's happened to her.
All three of you need to move forward, I agree. And the recovery process will be different for all three of you. My comment had more to do with not supporting your twin or your daughter from trying to forget that they have been sexual abuse victims...just like you.
Mary, I'm an abuse victim myself- just as recently as this past August. One of the things I've learned is that I can no longer gloss over it, and try and leave it in the past. My family also wants me to leave the pain and the past behind. But sometimes, in order to make the pain dissipate, you need the help and guidance of a psychologist and/or psychiatrist. My psychologist and I are starting soon on going to my very early childhood, revisiting the pain and going right up to my rape in August. I know the process is going to be long and painful - but I need to do it so that I don't keep doing the same stuff again (drinking to make the pain stop and other really bad behaviours that I've adopted through the years to cope with the pain).
I was just saying that whether it be you, me, your twin or your daughter - or any other victim of sexual abuse - this is not a journey that we can do on our own. It took me a very long time to accept this Mary.
Your family's pain is also marked with the suicide of your brother. This too should be explored as part of each of your respective therapies. I have no doubt that all of you are suffering from it. And unfortunately, I also believe that your brother's suicide may have been a part of your family's history (I'm not a doctor- but I have some of the same patterns in my family).
Like you, I will do anything to stop the cycle of my family history. I just think that I can't do it alone because the patterns are too ingrained in our psyche - I don't even recognize when my thinking is off the mark. But my psychologist does...
I remember you're telling us that your twin is schizophrenic. So she definitely needs to keep seeing her psychiatrist for the medications. But, she also needs therapy.
Mary, you're in my thoughts. Just as your twin and your daughter are. And I'll be here supporting each of your recoveries. But I'll also keep nagging you about therapy because I feel your pain every time that you post, every time I read your messages.
In you, I recognize myself and my mother (whom I also suspect is a survivor of abuse). Like you, my mother believes in leaving the past behind. My mother is now in her 70s. She has lived a life full of depression, addictions and a lot of pain. Her children have inherited this pain. I don't blame her at all - I love her with everything in my core. I just wish that our lives could have been a little different Mary. And for right now, I'm going to fight to break any remnant of this cycle that's really devastated an entire family through generations of abuse.
Until any of us can deal with this pain and accept what's happened to us Mary, we will always be "victims" - my goal is to finally become a "survivor" of sexual abuse. I don't want to be a victim any longer precisely because the pain is too much for me...I also really believe that until I deal with all of this, I will always be a victim and prey to more victimization.
During my last appointment with my psychologist, we discussed a particular aspect of being the child of sexual abuse. Without going into to many details Mary, I've been sexually assaulted and victimized many times in my life. A lot of it happening when I was a teenager right through to my early thirties. In my early thirties, I decided to stop dating because I was too afraid of being victimized again. My psychologist (who happens to be an expert in the field of sexual abuse and woman's patterns of re-victimization) explained the following to me: For people who've never been through what we have, they don't understand why we put ourselves in dangerous situations. But the reality is that we're not aware that we're doing it - I certainly wasn't. But subconsciously, there seems to be something that drives us to these situations in the hopes that "THIS TIME" we can change the outcome...and of course, we never can - and we keep doing these cycles over and over again. For me, these cycles have resulted in my not have any sense of self-worth. So I cope with it by doing self-destructive things.
I'll leave it here for now Mary. But I do hope that this post has made some sense as to why I keep nagging you into seeking and supporting therapy for your family members.
:hug: :hug:
When I posted to you, I was more referring to the past of sexual abuse and which I think is still at the heart of all of your pain. Just as your daughter is suffering from what's happened to her.
All three of you need to move forward, I agree. And the recovery process will be different for all three of you. My comment had more to do with not supporting your twin or your daughter from trying to forget that they have been sexual abuse victims...just like you.
Mary, I'm an abuse victim myself- just as recently as this past August. One of the things I've learned is that I can no longer gloss over it, and try and leave it in the past. My family also wants me to leave the pain and the past behind. But sometimes, in order to make the pain dissipate, you need the help and guidance of a psychologist and/or psychiatrist. My psychologist and I are starting soon on going to my very early childhood, revisiting the pain and going right up to my rape in August. I know the process is going to be long and painful - but I need to do it so that I don't keep doing the same stuff again (drinking to make the pain stop and other really bad behaviours that I've adopted through the years to cope with the pain).
I was just saying that whether it be you, me, your twin or your daughter - or any other victim of sexual abuse - this is not a journey that we can do on our own. It took me a very long time to accept this Mary.
Your family's pain is also marked with the suicide of your brother. This too should be explored as part of each of your respective therapies. I have no doubt that all of you are suffering from it. And unfortunately, I also believe that your brother's suicide may have been a part of your family's history (I'm not a doctor- but I have some of the same patterns in my family).
Like you, I will do anything to stop the cycle of my family history. I just think that I can't do it alone because the patterns are too ingrained in our psyche - I don't even recognize when my thinking is off the mark. But my psychologist does...
I remember you're telling us that your twin is schizophrenic. So she definitely needs to keep seeing her psychiatrist for the medications. But, she also needs therapy.
Mary, you're in my thoughts. Just as your twin and your daughter are. And I'll be here supporting each of your recoveries. But I'll also keep nagging you about therapy because I feel your pain every time that you post, every time I read your messages.
In you, I recognize myself and my mother (whom I also suspect is a survivor of abuse). Like you, my mother believes in leaving the past behind. My mother is now in her 70s. She has lived a life full of depression, addictions and a lot of pain. Her children have inherited this pain. I don't blame her at all - I love her with everything in my core. I just wish that our lives could have been a little different Mary. And for right now, I'm going to fight to break any remnant of this cycle that's really devastated an entire family through generations of abuse.
Until any of us can deal with this pain and accept what's happened to us Mary, we will always be "victims" - my goal is to finally become a "survivor" of sexual abuse. I don't want to be a victim any longer precisely because the pain is too much for me...I also really believe that until I deal with all of this, I will always be a victim and prey to more victimization.
During my last appointment with my psychologist, we discussed a particular aspect of being the child of sexual abuse. Without going into to many details Mary, I've been sexually assaulted and victimized many times in my life. A lot of it happening when I was a teenager right through to my early thirties. In my early thirties, I decided to stop dating because I was too afraid of being victimized again. My psychologist (who happens to be an expert in the field of sexual abuse and woman's patterns of re-victimization) explained the following to me: For people who've never been through what we have, they don't understand why we put ourselves in dangerous situations. But the reality is that we're not aware that we're doing it - I certainly wasn't. But subconsciously, there seems to be something that drives us to these situations in the hopes that "THIS TIME" we can change the outcome...and of course, we never can - and we keep doing these cycles over and over again. For me, these cycles have resulted in my not have any sense of self-worth. So I cope with it by doing self-destructive things.
I'll leave it here for now Mary. But I do hope that this post has made some sense as to why I keep nagging you into seeking and supporting therapy for your family members.
:hug: :hug:
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forgetmenot
MVP
Jazzey i hear you and as you know i will do anything for my sister and daughter and the rest of my family. They are and will get therapy they need or support they need. I am not insensitive or whatever words that Dr Baxter wants to throw out there at me. I am just someone trying to survive the only way i know how. I am sorry for any pain i have caused to members of this forum. I will try to be more careful in how i word things. Jazzey you are stronger than me to do what you are about to do. I don't have that kind of energy. I am just surviving and if setting up guide lines for me to survive is needed than i am insensitive I guess but he doesn't know how she gets when she revisits the past how cruel and mean and i can't deal with my twin when she gets this way. I am hurting now Dr Baxter managed to do that get me out of my numb state. I need to focus on keeping stability here in my house so we all can live together without pain. My twin and my daughter know they can talk to professionals not me i can't help them. How can i deal with their pain when i can't deal with mine. He shouldnt acuse me of things when he doesn't know me. Jazzey please take care of you and continue to be the great support you are to forum members here . Thanks for understanding mary. This too will pass
You're not insensitive Mary- but you are struggling. And I'm happy to hear that you'll support your daughter and your twin to get the support they need.
And absolutely - I think that for right now, none of you can talk about it. To revisit that pain is better kept with a therapist Mary. I can't discuss it with my twin either - it triggers me because I feel his pain and it magnifies my own...But I do encourage him to see a psychologist.
Mary - I know you don't feel strong. But everything I've seen on this forum indicates the contrary. And yes, like you, for the time being I feel as though I'm barely surviving. But I accept it for the time being and forge ahead with the help of any kind of support I can get - therapy being the main one.
You're in my thoughts Mary. And don't give up that instinct to fight please. :hug: :hug:
And absolutely - I think that for right now, none of you can talk about it. To revisit that pain is better kept with a therapist Mary. I can't discuss it with my twin either - it triggers me because I feel his pain and it magnifies my own...But I do encourage him to see a psychologist.
Mary - I know you don't feel strong. But everything I've seen on this forum indicates the contrary. And yes, like you, for the time being I feel as though I'm barely surviving. But I accept it for the time being and forge ahead with the help of any kind of support I can get - therapy being the main one.
You're in my thoughts Mary. And don't give up that instinct to fight please. :hug: :hug:
David Baxter PhD
Late Founder
I know what you wrote. I am referring to this statement specifically:
Of course you have a right to set boundaries for yourself. That statement, however, went way beyond setting your own boundaries in proscribing how others should feel and what others should do. To say that you cannot cope with discussions about the past with your sister is one thing. To say that after "4 mths of therapy she should have had all this past nonsense dealt with" is quite another.
Hi Mary
Does everyone you are trying to help overcome their afflictions actually want your help, or is your guilt forcing you to make some irrational choices?
Has your sister or daughter ever said " thank you for helping and saving me", or are they more inclined to argue, or at least offer resistance, when you try to assist?
And finally, what triggered this last bout of incoherence?
Yuray
ps not being judgemental or confrontational, just some point blank questions requiring some honest point blank answers
Does everyone you are trying to help overcome their afflictions actually want your help, or is your guilt forcing you to make some irrational choices?
Has your sister or daughter ever said " thank you for helping and saving me", or are they more inclined to argue, or at least offer resistance, when you try to assist?
And finally, what triggered this last bout of incoherence?
Yuray
ps not being judgemental or confrontational, just some point blank questions requiring some honest point blank answers
white page
Member
Mary ,
Of course you cannot take on every ones pain , this is for the proffessionals to deal with , each one of you should have a different therapist , there will be times when it is important and neccessary to revisit the past together , however in order to avoid either one of you unbearable suffering it could be done only within the structure of a family group therapy session .
There has to be a time , that in order to move on , one no longer considers oneself as a victim , it is easy being a victim in a certain sense , it can be an alibi for moving forward , it can be comfortable being a victim as it attracts sympathy and support .
I am not diminishing your victim status or denying your suffering , believe me I have had my own fair share of troubles , so I do know what I am talking about . It takes courage to step over the threshold of taking owns own suffering into ones hands and deciding that , okay that did happen and it was serious I need help to lay those demons to rest ,and once that is done I am not letting this dictate the rest of my life .
I know that you do have that survival instinct and courage .
my best wishes .
Of course you cannot take on every ones pain , this is for the proffessionals to deal with , each one of you should have a different therapist , there will be times when it is important and neccessary to revisit the past together , however in order to avoid either one of you unbearable suffering it could be done only within the structure of a family group therapy session .
There has to be a time , that in order to move on , one no longer considers oneself as a victim , it is easy being a victim in a certain sense , it can be an alibi for moving forward , it can be comfortable being a victim as it attracts sympathy and support .
I am not diminishing your victim status or denying your suffering , believe me I have had my own fair share of troubles , so I do know what I am talking about . It takes courage to step over the threshold of taking owns own suffering into ones hands and deciding that , okay that did happen and it was serious I need help to lay those demons to rest ,and once that is done I am not letting this dictate the rest of my life .
I know that you do have that survival instinct and courage .
my best wishes .
Yes, while I know it's hard to hear some of the comments we've made on this thread, they're made with the best of intentions. They're to keep you moving forward Mary. So that you don't stay in this pain, so that you don't continue to remain in victim mode.
I know these statements are hard Mary. I've had similar statements made to me - but they do force our thinking. And sometimes, we need that Mary. I hope you know that all of our statements here were made with the best of intentions...
I know these statements are hard Mary. I've had similar statements made to me - but they do force our thinking. And sometimes, we need that Mary. I hope you know that all of our statements here were made with the best of intentions...
white page
Member
I feel I would like to add , that when we are fragile within ourselves and our own pain has not been recognised , we do at times deny the pain of others and see it as an aggression to our selves , as if their pain was designed to hurt us , this is what Jazzey was saying , there is no hierarchy to suffering , your pain is yours , your sister and daughter have a right to their pain and their own individual ways and time lapses to resolve and cope with it .
I was happy when you wrote about recognizing your husbands pain , that was a huge step forward for your couple.
I know that all you want for your family is serenity and emotional comfort , but as the saying goes , you can't make an omelete without breaking eggs .
You have come a long way recently by accepting that you do need help .
I would concentrate on your needs now , and let the fullness of time and therapy for your daughter and sister take care of them .
You are not a therapist , you cannot heal them .
They can only do this when they need to and when they are ready for it .
I was happy when you wrote about recognizing your husbands pain , that was a huge step forward for your couple.
I know that all you want for your family is serenity and emotional comfort , but as the saying goes , you can't make an omelete without breaking eggs .
You have come a long way recently by accepting that you do need help .
I would concentrate on your needs now , and let the fullness of time and therapy for your daughter and sister take care of them .
You are not a therapist , you cannot heal them .
They can only do this when they need to and when they are ready for it .
forgetmenot
MVP
4mths of intense therapy i felt yes now time to move on. What do i know just stupid thoughts that now maybe she can move forward and leave the past in the past because living back there is not productive. I mean't it she needs to move forward stop this self pity and get on with her life. enough is enough
stop it grow up. It doesn't matter anymore i don't care i have to get myself together again and stop this nonsense there has to be away to get control of me again. I was so positve i could do this now i don't care.
stop it grow up. It doesn't matter anymore i don't care i have to get myself together again and stop this nonsense there has to be away to get control of me again. I was so positve i could do this now i don't care.
David Baxter PhD
Late Founder
There is a huge difference between grief and "self-pity".
forgetmenot
MVP
Yes grief, self pity are different but when one get so emotional involved in grief they stop seeing others around them and the whole world has to center around them. I am not sure what will happen now but i know if she lives with me it will be past free. mary
white page
Member
Mary ,
It seems to be a little contradictory , to want to take care of someone and then not allow them to express their grief , I think that you are not strong enough for this , and it would be respectful to yourself and your sister to not live together ,.until you yourself have come to terms with your own problems.
---------- Post added later and automatically merged ----------
Imagine someone else denying your need to grieve Mary, saying to you that you should not grieve , telling you to not feel pain . Telling you Mary that you are wallowing in self pity . You would be shocked and upset I know.
Every one here respects and listens to your pain , I understand it is difficult to cope with the pain of others when we are hurting .
That is why your sister would be better off not living with you , so that she can grief in her own time , and not be told that she should not be grieving or hurting .
I know you are a bright and caring person and you only want the best for everyone .
best wishes wp
It seems to be a little contradictory , to want to take care of someone and then not allow them to express their grief , I think that you are not strong enough for this , and it would be respectful to yourself and your sister to not live together ,.until you yourself have come to terms with your own problems.
---------- Post added later and automatically merged ----------
With all due respect to how you feel Mary , your sister is not you , and whether you feel that she should move on is not at all relevant to your sister , there is no should about it , she will move on when she can ., not because you want her to or you think she should . Lets look at this from another view point .
Imagine someone else denying your need to grieve Mary, saying to you that you should not grieve , telling you to not feel pain . Telling you Mary that you are wallowing in self pity . You would be shocked and upset I know.
Every one here respects and listens to your pain , I understand it is difficult to cope with the pain of others when we are hurting .
That is why your sister would be better off not living with you , so that she can grief in her own time , and not be told that she should not be grieving or hurting .
I know you are a bright and caring person and you only want the best for everyone .
best wishes wp
Until and unless you are willing to accept (and respect) where each of you are in this process Mary, you are of no assistance to any one of them - including yourself. So while you want to protect them Mary your efforts will be in vain.
My mother also "supports" me in getting psychological and medical help - as long as I don't discuss it with the family and I'm to "act" happy when I'm around them - otherwise I'm kicked out. She also says: "what? you're not over it yet. It's not normal Jazzey - you need to get out there, meet people and put the past behind you", or praises me for not having "given in" to the medical help (I've been lying to her about it)...I barely speak to any of my immediate family now - too many rules to it. So then I sink a little deeper in my isolation (and in my illness too by the way) every time. So now, in addition to getting better because of everything, this is another thing that I have to accept and deal with in therapy...that support would have been really a godsend to me Mary.
I know you're not ready to hear us Mary. You're so busy feeling your pain, that you can't see and aren't willing to accept that of others. You're saying that your sister can live with you but, with the caveat that it has to be "pain free" - that isn't support Mary. Or at least, not to your sister. It does however help your denial of what you're family's going through - much like my mother's behavior to deny my illness and the past that brought me here.
None of it will help your twin, and it won't help your daughter - not to mention what it's doing to you as well.
I do worry about your well-being Mary. I hope that at some point in the near future, you'll be ready to hear what we've all been trying to say to you. I've read a lot of anger in your last couple of posts. I understand Mary - but we are all trying to help you move forward. I truly believe that the thought processes your having right now are a direct result of your pain Mary. It's part of the distorted thinking patterns that Dr. Baxter already posted for you in this thread (I think anyway - Dr. Baxter can correct me on it if I'm wrong post number 60). That's why we're all responding to you, not out of ill intent nor to anger nor hurt you. To help you see the thinking patterns that you're currently in so that you get out of them. Both for yourself and for your family. :hug: :hug:
I'm also pushing you on this point - 1) because I care about you and your family; 2) because I've seen the will to get better in you before and I really want to see that again and finally, 3) because you and your familly are worth every ounce of that strength and will to get better - each and every one of you. You're in my thoughts Mary.
Go back to post 60 on this thread Mary - see if you can recognize some of your thinking patterns throughout what you've posted on this thread. Do you recognize them? Are you still taking your medications?
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Budoaiki
MVP
Mary,
As you know we all deal with things in our own way and in our own time, in my family we all bare different scars from the past and some of them they don't see and I am sure the same could be said about me. I am still trying to accept that there are things I might never understand or be able to make peace with even with the help of therapy.
My family can get pretty impatient with me at times and they are always pushing me to "let it go" ect ect. If I could do it that easily I would but my scars are different and we are different people so we heal in different ways and at a different pace.
I think that your sister might need to do it in her own time at her own pace, having your support in the form of patience with her could help her and you to deal with the past so you can live more peacefully in the present. In my experience catastrophes can either tear a family apart or it can strengthen their bond. I think the difference is choosing to be there for each other by accepting the fact we all need compassion and it's never needed more than when we are struggling with grief and despair.
As you know we all deal with things in our own way and in our own time, in my family we all bare different scars from the past and some of them they don't see and I am sure the same could be said about me. I am still trying to accept that there are things I might never understand or be able to make peace with even with the help of therapy.
My family can get pretty impatient with me at times and they are always pushing me to "let it go" ect ect. If I could do it that easily I would but my scars are different and we are different people so we heal in different ways and at a different pace.
I think that your sister might need to do it in her own time at her own pace, having your support in the form of patience with her could help her and you to deal with the past so you can live more peacefully in the present. In my experience catastrophes can either tear a family apart or it can strengthen their bond. I think the difference is choosing to be there for each other by accepting the fact we all need compassion and it's never needed more than when we are struggling with grief and despair.
Hi Mary,
I wanted to post for you the very first thread you started here back in February:
http://forum.psychlinks.ca/therapy-and-therapists/15664-going-back-to-past-or-not.html
I wanted to remind you of the steps you'd taken since this first post of yours because that post showed conviction and strength to move forward...
This forum is always here to lend you support when you need it Mary. :support:
I wanted to post for you the very first thread you started here back in February:
http://forum.psychlinks.ca/therapy-and-therapists/15664-going-back-to-past-or-not.html
I wanted to remind you of the steps you'd taken since this first post of yours because that post showed conviction and strength to move forward...
This forum is always here to lend you support when you need it Mary. :support:
forgetmenot
MVP
Re: Going back to past or not?
Thanks, Jazzey. I am having a big meal tonight for Easter. I replaced myself at work as I was not coping there well. I am having a lot of physical pain now.
I talked with my twin and told her to do what the doctor in Guelph thinks what is best for her. I told her she could do whatever she wanted and that she was welcome here but I think for her to heal fully she needs to listen to her psychiatrist in Guelph. She said she would be in lock down for 6 months Jazzey. No home visits at all Jazzey. It is almost like army rules. I want to do what is right Jazzey so I told her to listen to her doctor, not me, do what he thinks is best. 6 months more treatment without seeing me Jazzey. What do you think?
Thanks, Jazzey. I am having a big meal tonight for Easter. I replaced myself at work as I was not coping there well. I am having a lot of physical pain now.
I talked with my twin and told her to do what the doctor in Guelph thinks what is best for her. I told her she could do whatever she wanted and that she was welcome here but I think for her to heal fully she needs to listen to her psychiatrist in Guelph. She said she would be in lock down for 6 months Jazzey. No home visits at all Jazzey. It is almost like army rules. I want to do what is right Jazzey so I told her to listen to her doctor, not me, do what he thinks is best. 6 months more treatment without seeing me Jazzey. What do you think?
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