Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers

[Andy]

"Wow...It's so nice to see all of these responses on this thread everyone. And I too have printed this particular thread. But I don't anticipate ever showing it to my mother. I know that this would land me into the 24th point of the article - no thank you. i.e. No, she would not understand, she doesn't have that capacity."

It is kind of nice to know (not-"ha ha you got someone in your family too" nice.) that I am not the only one out there that has been completely hurt,confused,dumbfounded (and copious other emotions) by someone with these issues. I don't believe my mom would have the capacity either Jazzey.

In a previous post I said how I tried to talk with her and the conversation went in circles...It was followed by a phone call telling me that I am not right in the head, my meds must be out of whack. Which plays major on my thoughts because I'm like "maybe I am as crazy as she says and I just think I am ok,but I'm really not". To make things worse she is a retired nurse, and she has had me comitted twice before (once for good reason) so it freaks me out! She has moved to the next province so I don't know how much she could do if she really wanted to...Ugh, sorry, that story could also go on forever...
Anyway, point being that there is usually some sort of price to be paid if I or I am sure a lot of other people try to confront people with these issues, and I do believe they are issues, even though they may have done hurtful things, just like us they to came from somewhere, with more stigma had less resources to help themselves. It is just so hard to think that when there has been so many years of these horrible behaviours.

"I've recently wondered if some of my life experiences weren't directly related to her issues. Meaning that I've been so busy placating her that I've ended up placating a lot of people in my life, resulting in victimization of some sort? I don't know if this makes sense but that has been a recurring thought..."

I get what your saying. I know for years I tried to make sure not to complain about anything. I still have never dealt with my past do to the fact that I don't want people to think I am playing the victim or blaming my parents for my own issues for that matter. Which is totally backwards to this post. lol I think that is why I come on line. I wonder if I do it other ways though.

"STP, like you - I go to the opposite extreme. I'm almost too complaisant with people. But I've really been working at changing that part of my behaviour. And judging from what I've read here, I'm willing to bank that you do not have your mother's traits."

I'm glad your continuing to work on yourself. It's a long process, life long. I was at a point where my self-esteem was ok and I was doing really good with my CBT. Since I have secluded myself to the extreme I have had to much time to think and to much time to wittle my esteem back down and then some which knocked almost all CBT I finally was able to actually work into my thoughts.
It's definitely time for me to try to apply it again! I think that that is a major key to dealing with our mothers. Making sure to be strong in our own thoughts, and self esteem to be able to keep pushing those boundries until the guilt, both our own and incoming lol gets easier and easier to just go over our heads and know that all that she is doing is "her stuff" and we do not have to put up with any of it. I think as you said,you don't think your mother will ever change, mine either so it's like,

At what point do you keep letting her take away the happiness you deserved from the get go? When is it time to just say, I won't let you play these games anymore.

Thank-you so much for what you said. I have written some pretty blunt and obnoxious posts, when white page (sorry to mention you here, it's just relevant to what I am saying) asked if there was anyway a narcissist would know if they read this article-I thought she meant me. lol That's my head space. Did I mention that I tend to be paranoid? lol

Anyway,BABBLE I appreciate that comment because I stress about becoming my mother often as I am sure a lot of people do lol. I think your in the clear as well. lol :support:

"Thanks everyone..I actually have a smile on my face today."

This is good news! Keep at it! :goodjob:

Excuse my quoting. I seem to have no idea about some of the things on this site. lol

---------- Post added later and automatically merged ----------

Thanks David :noidea:

 

[Trust]

Thank you all for your insightful posts! I am new here on this forum, but many of the issues being discussed here are unfortunately not new at all to me. In the present time, and perhaps over the past couple of years, I have been feeling an escalating anger towards my mother whom I suspect has NPD in addition to her other diagnosed bipolar illness.

Like Jazzey and STP I also have 2 brothers - one has ASPD and the other moved away to the other side of the country 35 years ago. I was the first one to leave home, but the only one that could not feel right about abandoning my mother. I am still struggling with feeling okay about her not taking precedence over even my own feelings. I feel suffocated by her. I have intense guilt feelings as she is now frail and physically unwell and may in fact not live much longer. Or maybe she will live to a very old age and I have no idea how I will survive it if she does and so I have decided to seek therapy for myself to find ways to cope with my feelings.

I also worry about being affected by my mother's possible NPD - or whatever it is that motivates the abuse. It is a very frustrating and lonely experience but luckily I do have a few close family members I can trust to share my honest feelings with about my mother.

Hope is what I need right now because I think I understand some of the dynamics on an emotional and intellectual level, but I have no idea how to accept my mother as she is without that acceptance somehow diminishing us both. I am stubbornly seeking some sort of resolution with my mother that may be impossible to attain.

As I write this post, I feel compassion for my mother and for me, but if I were in her physical presence, I can almost guarantee that my compassion for she or me would quickly be replaced by overwhelming feelings of anxiety, anger, hurt, and guilt. I have tried to confront my mother with the truth of my feelings, but she is incapable of responding as I need her to.

I realize I overcompensate with my own grown children and it is difficult for me to make myself or my needs a priority with them either because it actually hurts me and makes me feel ill to say no to them. They are extremely understanding and sensitive about that and they wait more often for me to offer help, rather than routinely expect it, so I feel freer to choose when to help.

I am so burnt out from caring for and thinking about and worrying about my mother for my whole lifetime but am proud of myself for being able to articulate my feelings to my children about needing my boundaries respected. As well, I use my self-awareness to respect my children's right to live their own lives but I have a hard time expecting any kind of consideration from them. Thankfully, they are naturally considerate and kind to me, but on those occasions when I may feel taken advantage of when expections are placed on me thoughtlessly, I find it next to impossible to speak up for myself in those moments. I hate to disappoint my kids, or anyone for that matter. I think I need to learn that it's okay to pay attention to myself without feeling guilty, and as easy as that sounds, it does not come natural for me.

Ugh - I sound like a martyr or masochist - get out the violins! :lol:

My mother's mental illness has consumed such a large part of my life for so long, and I need to find a way to accept it and protect myself as I try to cope. One day, I hope I will be free to focus on more positive things in life. And I hope my mother does know and appreciate deep down on some soul level that my love and loyalty to her matters and makes a difference in her life. I believe she does love me, but she is just a very damaged person, like so many of us. Some people do choose to cut off all ties with NPD mothers, but I know that is neither possible nor a desirable solution for me.

Sorry for the mega post. Thank you everyone here for your help!

 

[Andy]

Hi Trust! Welcome!

It is definitely difficult to deal with someone with these characteristics. Reading this article was the first time I could put a name to everything about my mother(in my opinion of course).

I think it is great that you are seeking out some therapy, and also that you have family members who you can trust to share your feelings with. It sounds like you have raised some great kids too.

I think it is difficult to figure out how one feels when is comes to someone with a narcissistic personality, because the feelings are usually back and forth from anger to pity to guilt...and on and on. I know I feel bad for my mom but at the same there is extreme anger, but then there is guilt for being angry which goes back to pity. It just goes around in circles, which I think is the way they like it but it has really messed me up, because I couldn't pin point just one emotion if I tried. If that makes sense.

Anyway, I have no desire to cut ties with my mother either. We have a love/hate relationship. I know that there is no way that she would even think she needed to change and I am fine with that (well today I am anyway). I know that the best thing for me is to just get back into therapy and deal with my own stuff, and then I will have the tools to deal with my mother without letting anything continue to effect me.

Babble. I hope your able to get things sorted out in therapy. :support:

 

[Trust]

Hi Trust! Welcome!

It is definitely difficult to deal with someone with these characteristics. Reading this article was the first time I could put a name to everything about my mother(in my opinion of course).

I think it is great that you are seeking out some therapy, and also that you have family members who you can trust to share your feelings with. It sounds like you have raised some great kids too.

I think it is difficult to figure out how one feels when is comes to someone with a narcissistic personality, because the feelings are usually back and forth from anger to pity to guilt...and on and on. I know I feel bad for my mom but at the same there is extreme anger, but then there is guilt for being angry which goes back to pity. It just goes around in circles, which I think is the way they like it but it has really messed me up, because I couldn't pin point just one emotion if I tried. If that makes sense.

Anyway, I have no desire to cut ties with my mother either. We have a love/hate relationship. I know that there is no way that she would even think she needed to change and I am fine with that (well today I am anyway). I know that the best thing for me is to just get back into therapy and deal with my own stuff, and then I will have the tools to deal with my mother without letting anything continue to effect me.

Babble. I hope your able to get things sorted out in therapy. :support:

Thanks so much for your supportive comments STP!:2thumbs:

I wish I didn't have to spend another second analysing my mother's behaviours and I know I've spent so much of my life already doing just that - and obviously that leads to nowhere productive. I have to focus on changing me and how I feel about and react to her. I have "mothered" her all my life and yet I feel as if she thinks of me as not even separate from her.

My need to confront her with her behaviours ends in futility and then I just beat myself up for not accepting reality and for allowing her to have so much control over me emotionally. Simply, I am so exhausted by her that I need some space to get back some healthy perspective but I don't get that distance as she is always invading my space. She calls me every day many many times - during work - after work - jealous of any relationships I have including my kids and grandkids - takes no responsibility for her decisions - etc. etc.

Logic cannot get through to her and emotional appeals for empathy just make her more defensive and determined to prove me wrong or bad or unforgiving or inhuman. If I don't cheerfully comply with her demands, she will contact her other aging siblings for help which I find completely humiliating because she does this as a way to manipulate me by implying to others that I won't help, which is untrue. She feels entitled for help from anyone and everyone with little to no regard for the sacrifice or inconvenience it may cause someone else. That sense of entitlement has always been a source of embarrassment for me - her expectations of others make me cringe inside and she is oblivious to anyone thinking anything of her inappropriate neediness.

Her own sisters and brothers never had/have any real understanding of what she is truly like, and they just always see her as a victim. It's so infuriating! And it feels very unfair that I have been there for her and have tried to get her to respect me and others to spare her and me humiliation, but she just doesn't care about my feelings at all if it means she can get some benefit from someone else.

It's really late so I am going to sign off and get some sleep. Thanks again for listening and for sharing your experiences with me - it really does help to know I'm in good company! Have a great night!

 

[Jazzey]

Hi Trust,

Welcome to Psychlinks . I don't think I need to tell you this - but of course I completely understand both of your posts. I'm forever going back and forth on what to think / or do about mine. Some days, I convince myself that I need stronger boundaries with her so that she doesn't affect me anymore. I do recognize that, because of my own little dance with her, I enable her to do all the things that she does. And the ramifications always seem to smack me. And other days, her voice manages to sneak into my head and i start thinking that I'm the only problem in this relationship (i.e. I'm selfish, I'm egocentric, I'm ....fill in the worst adjective...)

There are a few books that a friend of mind recommended: 1) The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner, 2) Co-dependent no more: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring For Yourself by Melody Beattie. I haven't been able to read either of these just yet because I'm picking and choosing what I deal with for the time being. But I do have them.

Here's the only thing I know for sure for the time being: my mom, whether intentionally or not, really harms me. I also know that even though I swear that I'm going to put more boundaries around myself - I eventually end of feeling guilty and going right back to where it was before. I do enable her behaviours. And in return, I do recognize that I actively participate in the hurt that flows from it.

So now I'm going to try to figure out what is that I can do to change 1) my behaviours so I don't incite her 2) change my reactions, stop caring about her opinions on who I am as a person, how I look etc...3) let her be the victim / martyr that she wants to be - but not treat her as if she were victimized or mistreated by everyone around her....

Anyway, those are just a few thoughts that I've had these past few days.

 

[Trust]

Hi Trust,

Welcome to Psychlinks . I don't think I need to tell you this - but of course I completely understand both of your posts. I'm forever going back and forth on what to think / or do about mine. Some days, I convince myself that I need stronger boundaries with her so that she doesn't affect me anymore. I do recognize that, because of my own little dance with her, I enable her to do all the things that she does. And the ramifications always seem to smack me. And other days, her voice manages to sneak into my head and i start thinking that I'm the only problem in this relationship (i.e. I'm selfish, I'm egocentric, I'm ....fill in the worst adjective...)

There are a few books that a friend of mind recommended: 1) "The Dance of Anger" by Harriet Lerner, 2) "Co-dependent no more; How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring For Yourself" by Melody Beattie. I haven't been able to read either of these just yet because I'm picking and choosing what I deal with for the time being. But I do have them.

Here's the only thing I know for sure for the time being: my mom, whether intentionally or not, really harms me. I also know that even though I swear that I'm going to put more boundaries around myself - I eventually end of feeling guilty and going right back to where it was before. I do enable her behaviours. And in return, I do recognize that I actively participate in the hurt that flows from it.

So now I'm going to try to figure out what is that I can do to change 1) my behaviours so I don't incite her 2) change my reactions, stop caring about her opinions on who I am as a person, how I look etc...3) let her be the victim / martyr that she wants to be - but not treat her as if she were victimized or mistreated by everyone around her....

Anyway, those are just a few thoughts that I've had these past few days.

Hey Jazzey! Thanks for your reply.

I am feeling much more balanced today. I have actually opted out of the most recent "crisis" with my mom and I feel better for it. I have spoken to her a couple of times over the weekend, but she is in her feeling sorry for herself mode and I am in my getting some healthy space mode. I feel I have already got some much needed perspective and I feel more energetic and able to cope with whatever comes today and tomorrow and . . . one day at a time is a good approach I think.

I'm sorry you and STP and many others including me have this same type of confusing and often painful relationship with our mothers but I think you hit on the answer - it comes down to taking personal responsibility for how we deal with our mothers - of course I don't mean taking all the blame - but as you said finding ways to not make their opinions and demands all encompassing. I have a lot of pride when it comes to my mother and I have a hard time knowing that she puts me in a bad light with relatives and I don't like my own privacy invaded by her or them. But that's my own insecurity and I cannot continue to dwell on all the negativity because it is just too time consuming and soul draining. My mother's well being is not my responsibility. That overly developed sense of responsibility for others is a problem of mine - I know why I am that way - and the need to control things as well - but I am at the point in my life where I need to confront it and change it in and for myself. Perhaps one day, I will be able to come to terms with my mother and have a better and more peaceful relationship once I make some space, honour my own needs and analyse my own motivations as to why I allow myself to feel so responsible for her when my head knows otherwise.

I have to say that what I have read on these threads on this discussion board is great - all highly encouraging - a great and safe place to vent and feel supported - sometimes that's all it takes to feel better and regain perspective and get the courage to continue trying to have a happy life.

I have done quite a bit of research on the internet and my mother has never been diagnosed as NPD - but she sure fits the profile - but what I like about this site is that there is no emphasis on blaming the NPD person and a lot of other support groups I have come across are just too much that way for my taste. I am guilty of losing my patience with my mom and blaming her and shaming her about her illnesses and behaviours and I am not proud of that - and I don't think it helps anyone to attach all their blame onto another person. Learning to stick up for myself while respecting my mom's limitations and honouring her strengths is the goal for me. Conscience - even when it's over developed - IMO is not a bad thing as without it, a person does not have the same capacity to feel empathy and offer support to others. I think a lot of my own guilt and shame about my mother is actually a safeguard for me and it will be the quality that will motivate me to delve into the source of these issues to find balance and learn new ways to cope that will not take anything away from my mom or me. That's the plan anyway!

Good luck with your issues and I hope you find the answers you are seeking as well. Thanks for the book recommendations!:2thumbs:

Have a wonderful day!

 

[Jazzey]

I like your post Trust. And I agree with you 100%. You've very aptly described some of the very same goals that I've set for myself. Who knows, maybe one day I'll be able to go and visit her without wanting to run within the first half hour of being there

I'll wish you luck too Trust. I like having this discussion with other members because it forces us to reflect on our own situations, maybe force us to back up a little and see the situation for what it really is?

Thanks again

 

[Trust]

I like your post Trust. And I agree with you 100%. You've very aptly described some of the very same goals that I've set for myself. Who knows, maybe one day I'll be able to go and visit her without wanting to run within the first half hour of being there

I'll wish you luck too Trust. I like having this discussion with other members because it forces us to reflect on our own situations, maybe force us to back up a little and see the situation for what it really is?

Thanks again

Hey Jazzey - Yes - that back up position and looking at something from another vantage point really does help, IMO.

Just the other night I couldn't see anyway of ever healing and I was feeling totally overwhelmed and feeling sorry for myself. I am too old to be needing comfort from my mother anyway - you know what I mean - it would be nice but my feelings aren't her responsibility either. I really value my nature and I like certain qualities about me - ie compassion, patience, understanding - but I think I have been so over-involved in my mom's life for so long, trying to care for her, protect her, advocate for her etc. that I failed to see how unhealthy I was becoming because I needed to have all the control and yet I never protected myself - all to be something special to my mom which is way too important to me.

It's like I was the adult for all my life and now I want to revert to the helpless child I never felt I could be - and that's not very productive. Perhaps because she is now facing a physical crisis that could end up claiming her life, and that thought is terrifying to me because I don't want to lose her with so much unresolved between us. Still, that may be the reality and I have to be prepared somehow to accept it.

When problems keep accumulating in relationships and both people are stuck in non-productive ways of handling them, I think it just adds up to so much weight that now, in her hour of most need, I feel I may not be able to give her what she needs from me and that thought is heartbreaking. I guess that's why I am feeling the urgent need to change because I have a really hard time acting warm and trusting with someone when I don't genuinely feel that way inside - even when I know it could make a healing difference. I suffer a lot due to my own stubborn need to be vindicated.

Just taking these past couple of days away from her has allowed more warmth to flow through my heart again for her and I like that because when I am feeling betrayed or angry etc. I feel changed inside and I don't like the person I become.

I noticed you have put "sick" as your mood today. I hope you will be feeling better soon. If you have things you would like to discuss, please don't hesitate to write and I will be here to listen.

I have a good feeling about you and STP both . . . and I think it's just a matter of time before things start going your way in a good and healing way very soon!

Thanks once again for your thoughtful reply. Talk to you again soon, Jazzey!

 

[Jazzey]

Just the other night I couldn't see anyway of ever healing and I was feeling totally overwhelmed and feeling sorry for myself. I am too old to be needing comfort from my mother anyway - you know what I mean - it would be nice but my feelings aren't her responsibility either. I really value my nature and I like certain qualities about me - ie compassion, patience, understanding - but I think I have been so over-involved in my mom's life for so long, trying to care for her, protect her, advocate for her etc. that I failed to see how unhealthy I was becoming because I needed to have all the control and yet I never protected myself - all to be something special to my mom which is way too important to me.

I don't know Trust. Is there such a thing as being too old to rely on the love of a mother? I'm just trying to strike that delicate balance: loving her knowing that I can't expect more than I can expect. I actually had a fairly intense conversation with her this weekend...she just is who she is. And I love her. But I also now know that I need some boundaries if I'm going to be healthy.

I have a nasty habit of falling prey to the guilt trips. Like you, my mother's health isn't great right now. And while there are days where I'm saddened by the idea that we may never resolve this I also have days where I appreciate just that - 'we may never resolve this'. I have to be ok with this. I cannot make her into someone that she isn't. But I can control what I do in this lifetime. I'm just trying to find a way to love her that isn't damaging to me.

I like what you said about taking a few days away from her so that you can have those loving sentiments. My moms cycles are more in the nature of weeks - she'll be in one of her moods for 2 or 3 weeks. During those weeks, I know I have to stay away from her because I become her punching bag. And on her good weeks, I try and reconnect with her a little - the whole thing being a little gruelling at times. But I'm learning.

And thank you for the well wishes Trust - I am sick right now. But nothing a few days in bed can't fix.

It was nice talking to you Trust. And it was nice sharing some experiences - thank you for your offer of support too. :hug: Maybe someday in the very near future we will all be a whole lot better at all of this?

 

[Trust]

I don't know Trust. Is there such a thing as being too old to rely on the love of a mother? I'm just trying to strike that delicate balance: loving her knowing that I can't expect more than I can expect. I actually had a fairly intense conversation with her this weekend...she just is who she is. And I love her. But I also now know that I need some boundaries if I'm going to be healthy.

I have a nasty habit of falling prey to the guilt trips. Like you, my mother's health isn't great right now. And while there are days where I'm saddened by the idea that we may never resolve this I also have days where I appreciate just that - 'we may never resolve this'. I have to be ok with this. I cannot make her into someone that she isn't. But I can control what I do in this lifetime. I'm just trying to find a way to love her that isn't damaging to me.

I like what you said about taking a few days away from her so that you can have those loving sentiments. My moms cycles are more in the nature of weeks - she'll be in one of her moods for 2 or 3 weeks. During those weeks, I know I have to stay away from her because I become her punching bag. And on her good weeks, I try and reconnect with her a little - the whole thing being a little gruelling at times. But I'm learning.

And thank you for the well wishes Trust - I am sick right now. But nothing a few days in bed can't fix.

It was nice talking to you Trust. And it was nice sharing some experiences - thank you for your offer of support too. :hug: Maybe someday in the very near future we will all be a whole lot better at all of this?

You are definitely not alone, Jazzey and I really appreciate your honesty and openness as I know it is not an easy subject to discuss without feeling like we're betraying our moms.

Lately I have been wondering if I am using my mom as an excuse for the things I don't do. Maybe she is like a shield which is preventing me from focusing on myself and taking responsibility for my own choices in life. I think sometimes I forgive myself for not realizing my own potential by using her need for me as an excuse.

One thing I do know is that I have sustained a pretty good outook and life all in all and I think I must be having my mid-life crisis! Whatever, I truly believe that something good will come from all of our soul searching!

We just have to be even more determined to get our support from others when our moms are incapable of giving us the kind of approbation we desire. I think it is because we lacked a lot of heathy interaction when we were growing up that we continue to seek it from our mom's so late in life. I have friends my age whose relationships with their moms are completely different - they were encouraged to be independent of their mothers at an earlier age and stage - whereas my mom is threatened by mine and it sounds like your mom is of yours - but almost every woman I know have some emotional issues with their moms - just not to such an extreme extent as perhaps you and I.

Tonight all I can say is that I feel so much better having this forum as a place to voice my feelings without feeling misunderstood and judged. My mom called tonight and she was very pleasant. I really think she may be feeling more appreciative of me and my needs to have my own separate life! Perhaps she really got the message that I was prepared to walk away completely if her behaviour remained so unreasonable. Whatever caused her change of attitude, no matter how short or long it lasts, I'm feeling grateful to be on the receiving end of her respect.

Thanks so much for everything Jazzey - we can get through this and become stronger and happier in the process! I hope you get feeling better quick quick!

Have happy dreams tonight!:hug:

 

[Iwillbwell]

Wow! I just read this and started tearing up......this is my mother

I have no relationship with my father, brother and extended family because of her. I don't know what to say......................

 

[Jazzey]

IWBW..May I ask why you've separated from your brother and father? It's not a judgment call. I'm found myself inadvertently doing the same thing - putting distance with all of them to serve as protection for me - for specific reasons....


What about you?

 

[Hermes]

Perhaps some will have read this book:

"Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers" by Dr. Karyl McBride.

Not to mention the excellent essays by a Dr. Richard Grossman.

The only way to deal with narcissistic people is "no contact". Evidently, for small children this is, sadly, not an option. But for adults, yes it is, and yes, you can. Staying in contact will only smear you with further toxicity, and I suppose you have to ask yourselves not "Why am I unable to go no contact" but rather "why on earth am I remaining in contact".

Abusive people do not deserve loyalty or any other misplaced emotion.

Hermes

 

[Iwillbwell]

Jazzey, my mother has always been the center of my entire family. I am the scapegoat and my brother is the golden child. It got to a point where she bought him a home, car, and supported his semi lavish lifestyle while I struggled. Even though I grew up in this environment, I always stood up for myself. She would twist my defense and cry to everyone that I was abusive and my brother literally hates me now. My poor father sees and understands what's going on but is too afraid to stand up and fight for me. I know he loves me but he is abused himself. He calls me every now and then but only when she's not around. She has soo much power in my family it's scary. Regarding my extended family, she made me believe that they hated me because I was a girl and not a boy. My childhood and teenage years were filled with stories about how much my extended family hated me. It's been so long that now I find it hard to re-connect. The other part of it is I turned to the adult industry for love and support early in my life. My mother found out and has used this against me. She told everyone in my family and guess what? according to her everyone thinks I'm a whore lol

---------- Post added at 02:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------

Right now, I need to focus on healing myself because I am broken. Once this happens I will work on healing my relationship with my family.

 

[Jazzey]

The only way to deal with narcissistic people is "no contact". Evidently, for small children this is, sadly, not an option. But for adults, yes it is, and yes, you can. Staying in contact will only smear you with further toxicity, and I suppose you have to ask yourselves not "Why am I unable to go no contact" but rather "why on earth am I remaining in contact".

Abusive people do not deserve loyalty or any other misplaced emotion.

Hermes

It's not always that cut and dried Hermes. Other factors come into play in a family unit that affect decisions to come and go. As abusive as my mother can be, I'm working on maintaining a certain distance from her. But in my family, there are other members who are as affected by her and that I love deeply.

IWBW, I'm sorry to hear about your upbringing. I wasn't suggesting that you renew those ties. Sometimes those ties cannot be fixed.My mother has done me enough damage to last a lifetime. In the past few years, I've come to appreciate just how damaging she can be. I don't think I'll ever have the close relationship that I used to have with her.

 

[David Baxter PhD]

Right now, I need to focus on healing myself because I am broken. Once this happens I will work on healing my relationship with my family.

That sounds like a sound strategy, Iwillbewell.

 

[Hermes]

Hello Jazzey:

It really is a very sad state of affairs that one (mentally disordered) person can hold others to ransom just like that. I understand what you mean about other members of your family (siblings maybe?) being affected by this person's abuse and bullying, and that you would want to help and support them. It is a no-win situation where an NPD individual is involved, and it is not just me saying it.
We've only got one life, and this is it.
What is the worst case scenario, one must ask? Has the N-mother got a financial hold of some kind, (in which case best not to even go there), or is the fear just so dire that it cannot be addressed.

They say that there are only two things in life for which there is no remedy: one is death, and the other.....the tax-man).

Best to you
Hermes

---------- Post added at 08:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 AM ----------

I just thought I would cite this:

"""Alice Miller writes in The Drama of the Gifted Child about childhood harm leading to compromised emotional life as an adult, including those kinds of behavior.

Miller has been quoted about the word ‘gifted’ in the title: “I had in mind neither children who receive high grades in school nor children talented in a special way. I simply meant all of us who have survived an abusive childhood thanks to an ability to adapt even to unspeakable cruelty by becoming numb… Without this ‘gift’ offered us by nature, we would not have survived.”

She writes in the book, “A little reflection soon shows how inconceivable it is really to love others (not merely to need them), if one cannot love oneself as one really is.

“And how could a person do that if, from the very beginning, he has had no chance to experience his true feelings and to learn to know himself? For the majority of sensitive people, the true self remains deeply and thoroughly hidden. But how can you love something you do not know, something that has never been loved?

“So it is that many a gifted person lives without any notion of his or her true self. Such people are enamored of an idealized, conforming, false self. They will shun their hidden and lost true self, unless depression makes them aware of its loss or psychosis confronts them harshly with that true self, whom they now have to face and to whom they are delivered up, helplessly,
......."""

 

[Yuray]

The further I got into reading the original post the more I thought the author was a practising narcissist. The nuances and inferences were from one very familiar with the art of narcissism. The depth of explanation and citing of event by example could only come from one who has them frequently in mind. These are not notes from a therapists diary, these are not warnings from a narcissist, these are warnings about a narcissist.

So many of the respondees to this post suffer at the hands of a narcissist. They as well offer seemingly valuable input in how to deal with a narcissist. Yet they are still victims of a narcissist. Why? We can all see the advantages of leaving the narcissist behind........but the narcissist is not left behind...and compromises are made in the name of love, familiarity, and perhaps, because the narcissism is required, and needed.

Its not the narcissist that needs to be examined, complained about, or judged as a perpetuator of grief, its the willing or non willing victim or volunteer that has to be examined. Why is it tolerated? The answer to that lies in the victim / volunteer, not the narcissist. Love and familiarity with the narcissist is no more valid reason for staying a victim / volunteer than sheilding a pedophile from the law because you care about them. Both scenarios are wrong ethically, and, bad conduct in any manner has to be addressed in order to resolve.

The victims need to change, not the narcissist. The victims need to act, not the narcissist. Keeping the appearances of family unity and harmony for all to see at the cost of self esteem, self respect, and emotional grief, is too high a price to pay for something where the source remains constant, and unchangeable. Change hurts, but how much more can a victim hurt? At what point do you declare a threshold of tolerance has been arrived at? From the responses I have read here today, no one has yet reached a threshold. A threshold where complaints are offered perhaps, and minor solutions are practised perhaps, but these are just peripheral, and perhaps perpetuating. Victims are predictable to the narcissist.

As a victim, weakness, inability to act, indecision, fear of retribution, and public outcry at family embarrasemnt are poor reasons to remain a victim.

The problem has to be understood in detail, and addressed in detail. The responses in this thread make it obvious that narcissim is understood, and the respondees exchange war stories about the horrors, and crippling affect, and in some, the very entrenchment and governing of life choices as dictated by the narcissist.

The question is not 'why' we accept the abuse of a narcissit, but how to combat it, and still feel good about ourselves. Acting in our own best interest, just as a narcissit does, is what is needed. Call it 'narcissism' in a way.

No one who suffers at the hands of a narcissist is equipped to remedy it, just as a lawyer doesn't represent himself, or a doctor diagnose and cure himself. Answers are available. Solutions are available, but there is a cost, and maintaining family unity under the banner of love and familiarity isn't one of them. Tough choices need to be made, or, remain where you are, and perhaps grudgingly comfortable. Its always easier, and requires less work to remain where one is familiar with the rules and game plan, than to invent a new game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissus_(mythology)

 

[David Baxter PhD]

I think you are way off base here, Yuray.

The further I got into reading the original post the more I thought the author was a practising narcissist. The nuances and inferences were from one very familiar with the art of narcissism. The depth of explanation and citing of event by example could only come from one who has them frequently in mind. These are not notes from a therapists diary, these are not warnings from a narcissist, these are warnings about a narcissist.

Actually, they are from a woman who was victimized by a narcissist over a long period of time before she was able to extricate herself from the relationship.

So many of the respondees to this post suffer at the hands of a narcissist. They as well offer seemingly valuable input in how to deal with a narcissist. Yet they are still victims of a narcissist. Why? We can all see the advantages of leaving the narcissist behind........but the narcissist is not left behind...and compromises are made in the name of love, familiarity, and perhaps, because the narcissism is required, and needed.

Hardly. Would you make the same statement substituting the word "psychopath" above? Or "abusive spouse"? Or "abusive parent"? The same dynamics apply. Why to people remain? First, because in many cases the narcissist is a parent or other close family member. Second, because like psychopaths, narcissists are master manipulators.

Its not the narcissist that needs to be examined, complained about, or judged as a perpetuator of grief, its the willing or non willing victim or volunteer that has to be examined. Why is it tolerated? The answer to that lies in the victim / volunteer, not the narcissist. Love and familiarity with the narcissist is no more valid reason for staying a victim / volunteer than shielding a pedophile from the law because you care about them. Both scenarios are wrong ethically, and, bad conduct in any manner has to be addressed in order to resolve.

While it may be true that ultimately the victim needs to find a way to leave, your statement is a gross oversimplification. Only someone who has never suffered at the hands of a narcissist or had the opportunity to observe the destructive effects in someone else who has could make a statement like that.

The victims need to change, not the narcissist.

Only because the narcissist, by definition, has no motivation to change and thus will not effect change.

As a victim, weakness, inability to act, indecision, fear of retribution, and public outcry at family embarrassment are poor reasons to remain a victim.

Yuray, I think that is seriously insulting to those who are or have been victims.

 

[Hermes]

Oh dear! This is such an emotive subject, because of the raw pain caused by the narcissist to his/her supposed nearest and dearest. Indeed always to the nearest and dearest.
I know exactly that the N is manipulative, that the abuse can (initially) be very covert, and I KNOW that a child/young adolescent is not in a position to leave the parent (unless by some stroke of luck he or she is removed by the social services).
However (I may get slapped on the wrist for this) I do honestly think that an adult "child" does not have to stay with the abusive parent. One does not in fact "have" to do anything, come to think of it. And yes, yes, I know all about the macabre dynamics of the relationship, but there is now an immense amount of information out there in books and on the net as regards NPD. And yes, some people have more moxy (for want of a better word) than others. Personalities do differ.

Sure, it is not easy to leave, but I think it is important to examine the "reasons" for staying.

I don't entirely disagree with Yuray, and I honestly think s/he is sincere in part.

Unless you think the N is going to actually kill you, or get someone else to do it (fear for one's life), it has to be analysed WHAT exactly causes the fear. Their stupid tantrums? Their reptilian gaze? Their crazy machinations? The N is a man/woman of straw, with nothing much inside. It is really like being scared of a scarecrow.

No, the person with NPD will not change, that is practically a certainty.

Life is difficult enough at the best of times. Adding an N into the recipe spells disaster.

All the best
Hermes